How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?

[Travis]

PS: It is interesting to note that, in English, I is spelled the same way, everytime, as "one" in Roman numbers. Could it be that the ego of the average English speaker is much larger than that of other languages?

This is interesting, but first names are also routinely capitalized and 'I' is one of its pronouns. But we do usually fail to capitalize the pronouns designating Others, besides God, which is perhaps something I ought to start doing out of fairness (I champion deity–human equality).

'Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play...' ―Ahab ​

Thanks, the bits on egg whites are much appreciated. A lot of people report bad effects from well-cooked egg whites, myself included. The yolks (the ones that enjoy a journey down your sink), seem to have vastly different effects, and this is true despite the high ω−6 content. Besides the fact that they simply contain less proteins, I do wonder if the cholesterol can make up for some of its immediate damage and have benefits of its own when included in decent to large amounts in the diet. Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline
Could the fact that gelatin lower phenylalanine and tyrosine be bad news for serotonin and dopamine? Combined with bromelain (to ensure no negative effects from the gelatin on digestion) it can yield a pleasant or unpleasant stress-lowering sedative effect (that we discussed on the Travis corner thread). In my case the only time it was unpleasant was too much gelatin and bromelain at once, and more importantly, bromelain was added to the gelatin before ingesting it. Perhaps it takes some time to unveil its potential, and it may prove to be something particularly beneficial near bed-time. I probably wouldn't try 30 grams at once, but you know about all of this better than I.

I admit that I didn't feel this bad when I had consumed the entire eggs, although Fernstrom's data indicates that whole egg will also raise serotonin. Perhaps the speed of proteolysis is delayed with the lipids present, and perhaps some proteins are being trapped inside of lipid micelles? For this reason (food matrix effects) I would expect omelets to be more potentially immunogenic, though also less serotonergic (or not as fast-hitting). I don't think I can handle these spikes, and I'll try to remember to pick up the gelatin next time I go shopping. This would be interesting to experiment with because after protein ingestion, both plasma amino acids and ammonia are found increased in unison—within minutes. Since it cannot be argued that postprandial fatigue stemming from gelatin + bromelain consumption is due to increased tryptophan, I can see of little explanation besides the ammonia levels. Liver failure is often characterized by hyperammonemia, and the deliriant effects of such could go a ways in explaining some symptoms found in that condition. As a charged molecule ammonium (NH₄⁺) has very little in common with the small molecule general anesthetics such as methane and argon, which are all invariably nonpolar. Anesthetic potency, as a rule, correlates remarkably well with phosphotidylcholine—water partitioning: the more (lipid) membrane-soluble they are, the lower dose that is needed. I think this means that only the neutral ammonia species (NH₃) could be suspected as having general anesthetic properties, although ammonium is a precursor for the highly-somnolent oleamide (as an enzymatic substrate along with oleic acid):

Cravatt, B. "Chemical characterization of a family of brain lipids that induce sleep." Science (1995)
Huidobro-Toro, J. "Brain lipids that induce sleep are novel modulators of 5-hydroxytrypamine receptors." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences9(1996)
Guan, X. "The sleep-inducing lipid oleamide deconvolutes gap junction communication and calcium wave transmission in glial cells." The Journal of cell biology (1997)​

 

[Travis]

Have you noticed problems with eating large servings of fruit without an additional protein source? Very large servings of fruit make me feel spaced out, I attributed it to tryptophan crossing the blood-brain barrier. Fruit doesn't digest well for me though if paired with other foods unless I keep the serving sizes small. I've had better luck with starch, which seems to digest fine regardless of what I pair it with.

Absolutely not; I very often eat ¹⁄₂ pineapple with no effect.

 

[Travis]

Hi Travis,
We’re all fundamentally truth-seekers here, so I have to commend you on your effort and your natural persistence to find the truth in all our “burning” questions. That’s what makes you such a generous and valuable contributor here on this forum. Thank you for going the extra mile for the benefit of all of us.

I took a cursory look at the attached files and my impressions are this: This Ernie guy, who ever he really is, noticed something odd when testing a detox product developed by another company. You said previously that you are very suspicious of his financial motives, and he does describe himself as a “holistic entrepreneur” ( whatever that is!) so I think a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted in this case. For this reason, you chose not to give him the benefit of the doubt, but for the sake of argument, I will:

What if....through this product testing he noticed an anomaly that he thought was worth pursuing? He started doing some “low level” (or crude, as you say) testing in his kitchen on his BOAT. Ugh, I can just picture it, and I’m actually giggling right now. Granted, that’s not really how we want scientific research and exploration to go down. But on the other hand, it was a starting point for someone who felt they had an important question. This has happened a lot throughout history, sometimes very important scientific discoveries start with crude or accidental beginnings.
He did enlist other labs to analyze and confirm his findings. The report is well written, it lays out his preliminary findings without claiming anything conclusive, only that further investigation is required. Isn’t that how most scientific inquiries start out? By saying — hey, something’s kind of wonky here, maybe the scientific community should look into this so we can determine the truth. I’m think I’m looking at him more as a whistle blower kind of guy. Someone who sounds the alarm but encourages or leaves it to the broader scientific community to investigate.

Additionally, I’m wondering what could possibly be financially benefit by going to all this trouble? I may be missing something obvious here, but it seems like he is spending a lot of time and energy doing this and for what? Where’s the pay off?

Well . . . One red flag that I see is that nobody else publishes kale–thallium warnings. I don't think this can be seen as the scientific status quo being 'afraid to go there' because there are hundreds more radical and anti-food industry articles printed yearly. When I had went over those two PowerPoints™ I had been struck by how unsubstantial the numbers had been: No subject plasma or urine data, and the thallium levels had been similar to those freely reported elsewhere. I am still e-mailing him and am trying to get a feel for what exactly had happened. Although most Americans seem to authoritatively trust all news reports purported as being true, some appear downright fraudulent. Even though its rarely believed they are regularly contrived wholesale, there are few Americans naïve enough to imagine that articles aren't being sensationalized (especially those found online). It could be that trace thallium could be more important that I would imagine (I should read more about this), but I also think that it's probable that this article had been exaggerated by either Ernie or the article's Writer (I champion name–pronoun equality). If so, I think it would be fair to say that they would not have anticipated exactly how 'viral' the story had become in the months that followed.

I hope to know more about this event, and I do enjoy sparring with Ernie via e-mail.

 

[Travis]

Have you noticed problems with eating large servings of fruit without an additional protein source? Very large servings of fruit make me feel spaced out, I attributed it to tryptophan crossing the blood-brain barrier. Fruit doesn't digest well for me though if paired with other foods unless I keep the serving sizes small. I've had better luck with starch, which seems to digest fine regardless of what I pair it with.

I don't think it could be the tryptophan then because starch raises the Fernstrom ratio more than sugar. The increases in tryptophan ratio seen after ingestion of carbohydrates is insulin-dependent, which is not released from the pancreas in response to fructose. Starch is essentially all glucose, while the carbohydrates in fruit are roughly half fructose (the common exception being the banana). Thus, the changes in Fernstrom ratio resulting after a food's ingestion would be expected to closely mirror its' glycemic index. Raw fruit invariably has a lower glycemic index than things such as potatoes and rice.

You then might be tempted to think the fatigue could be from ethanol on account of C. albicans or S. cerevisiae auto-fermentation. Hosting too many of these species have been shown to put people over the legal limit after glucose ingestion, and nearly fatal BAC levels of .60% have been reported in the literature. But then again, glucose forms a better substrate for yeast than does fructose so I am at a complete loss for explanations. Perhaps you could try to Fuji apple: This has fiber, no preformed serotonin pineapple, and a fructose to glucose ratio of 2∶1.

 

[Amazoniac]

have you tried some sodium bicarbonate with orange juice* to rule out chloride?

The monovalent cations of sodium antagonize this protective action of calcium. Hence, the diet should take this fact into consideration by feeding less sodium while giving more calcium.

William F. Koch Research Site

a great deal of the burning pain of malignancies is caused by an excess of sodium chloride

"A high concentration of H+ ions causes a large number of H+ ions to bind to proteins, which change their charge and shape. Although this is generally undesirable because it may lead to a change in function, it has certain biologic advantages. For example, this binding of H+ ions to dietary proteins in the lumen of the stomach changes their shape so that pepsin can gain access to sites that permit hydrolysis of these proteins. Accordingly, the anion secreted by the stomach along with H+ ions is Cl− ions because Cl− ions do not bind H+ ions until the pH is very low. HCl dissociates completely in aqueous solutions, and because there are no major buffers in gastric fluid, the H+ ion concentration is high and H+ ions bind avidly to dietary proteins and denature them." -- Source (Travisord, I'm copying your quoting style, hope you don't mind)

 

[Travis]

"A high concentration of H+ ions causes a large number of H+ ions to bind to proteins, which change their charge and shape. Although this is generally undesirable because it may lead to a change in function, it has certain biologic advantages. For example, this binding of H+ ions to dietary proteins in the lumen of the stomach changes their shape so that pepsin can gain access to sites that permit hydrolysis of these proteins. Accordingly, the anion secreted by the stomach along with H+ ions is Cl− ions because Cl− ions do not bind H+ ions until the pH is very low. HCl dissociates completely in aqueous solutions, and because there are no major buffers in gastric fluid, the H+ ion concentration is high and H+ ions bind avidly to dietary proteins and denature them." -- Source (Travisord, I'm copying your quoting style, hope you don't mind)

Interesting. The Gilbert Ling book has information on protein denaturing, all of which is very interesting. You can break 'disulfide bridges' with reducing agents, molecular 'salt bridges' with sodium chloride, and 'leucine zippers' with heat.

An arginine–phosphate interaction can theoretically be broken with methylglyoxal. These are common, and every NADH–dependent enzyme that I've seen uses an arginine as the phosphate-binding domain.

 

[SOMO]

Have you noticed problems with eating large servings of fruit without an additional protein source? Very large servings of fruit make me feel spaced out, I attributed it to tryptophan crossing the blood-brain barrier. Fruit doesn't digest well for me though if paired with other foods unless I keep the serving sizes small. I've had better luck with starch, which seems to digest fine regardless of what I pair it with.

Fruit used to cause acne for me. I pair fruit with yogurt usually and I think it's a great combo for having healthy bowel movements. I usually have a cup (8-12oz) of berries a day and feel very satisfied with that and have managed to retain my clear skin, so whatever issue I had with fructose/fruit in the past seems to have resolved itself.

"A high concentration of H+ ions causes a large number of H+ ions to bind to proteins, which change their charge and shape. Although this is generally undesirable because it may lead to a change in function, it has certain biologic advantages. For example, this binding of H+ ions to dietary proteins in the lumen of the stomach changes their shape so that pepsin can gain access to sites that permit hydrolysis of these proteins. Accordingly, the anion secreted by the stomach along with H+ ions is Cl− ions because Cl− ions do not bind H+ ions until the pH is very low. HCl dissociates completely in aqueous solutions, and because there are no major buffers in gastric fluid, the H+ ion concentration is high and H+ ions bind avidly to dietary proteins and denature them." -- Source (Travisord, I'm copying your quoting style, hope you don't mind)

Besides sounding horrific and super bad for you...

Does anyone have any evidence that "Denatured Proteins" are bad for you?

Does anyone have any evidence that "Denatured Proteins" are any different from amino acids?

That term "Denatured Proteins" gets thrown around a lot and I've yet to see someone explain why it's bad.

 

[Amazoniac]

PS: It is interesting to note that, in English, I is spelled the same way, everytime, as "one" in Roman numbers. Could it be that the ego of the average English speaker is much larger than that of other languages?

Imagine if you were Xisca, and you had to use 'soy' in place of 'I am' on a daily of the basis. It could increase la tensión for sure.

 

[Amazoniac]

Oh shiτ.

I don't want to be a scaremonkey here, I'm sharing because when the body is weak, this might be relevant.

Effect of sodium chloride on the thyroid gland and on iodide metabolism∗ - ScienceDirect

"Sodium chloride modifies the clearance of iodide from the blood by the kidney, thus causing enormous losses of this ion into the urine. These losses restrict the uptake of iodine by the thyroid gland and consequently diminish the rate of synthesis and of secretion of thyroid hormone. The pituitary gland responds to the low level of this hormone in the blood by releasing thyrotropic hormone which in turn stimulates the thyroid gland. Under condition of critical iodine intake the urinary losses induce a condition of iodine deficiency which results in a persisting stimulation of the thyroid and, eventually, in goiter."


"Prolonged administration of sodium chloride may affect considerably the function as well as the morphology of the thyroid gland.[1,2] An increase in the size of the gland may even occur if the animals are fed a diet with a critical or a low iodine content . Such a diet alone may, of course, induce a goiter (Fig. 1) . This is the well-known iodine deficiency goiter which is well developed in the mouse after 2 months on the low iodine diet. When sodium chloride is added to the same diet, the mice have larger goiters (Fig. 1). The extent of this effect depends on the level of salt in the diet and also on the level of iodine. In an experiment in which various levels of sodium chloride and iodine were used, it was found that at some levels of iodine concentration sodium chloride had no effect on the weight of the thyroid gland but did produce a stimulation of the gland which was readily recognizable histologically (Fig. 2). The amount of colloid was decreased and the cells were hypertrophied. The stimulation increased with the level of NaCl and was inversely related to the level of iodine in the diet. Adding 3 per cent sodium chloride to the diet led to approximately the same thyroid condition as lowering the iodine to NaCl level in the ratio 3:1 (Fig. 2)."

Spoiler: Fig. 1

"In two groups of mice fed the low iodine diet for a period of 2 months with or without added sodium chloride, salt about doubled the amount of iodide excreted into the urine (Fig. 3). This steady loss of iodide must have reduced the amount of iodine available to the thyroid gland because 2 months after the start of the experiment the iodine content of the thyroids in the animals ingesting salt was only a quarter of that of mice not eating sodium chloride (Fig. 4). It is probable that under these conditions the rate of secretion of thyroid hormone and the hormone level in blood were low."

Spoiler: Fig. 4

"Mice were injected with radioiodine and received an intragastric injection of 30 mg. sodium chloride imnediately after. Three hours later they had excreted aa considerable amount of radioiodine in their urine, In fact, the iodide losses were ten to twenty times larger than those in the animals not receiving salt (Fig. 6). Incidentally, the radioiodine content of the thyroid was not changed (Fig. 6). This indicates that whatever effect is produced by sodium chloride on the thyroid, this effect occurs after the initial increase in urinary excretion."

"That the enormous urinary losses of iodide were actually depriving the thyroid of a large share of its normal iodide was apparent in animals sacrificed at longer time intervals. After 24 hours the radioiodine content of the thyroid was only a half that found in mice not receiving salt (Fig. 7)."

"The changes in urinary and blood radioiodide content could also be produced in thyroidectomized rats but not in nephrectomized mice (Table Uno). This is taken as further evidence that the urinary losses of iodide are the cause of the changes in iodide concentration in the blood and thyroid gland."

"Under normal conditions, about 60 per cent of the total amount of iodide administered was eliminated in the urine and 40 per cent was organified in the thyroid gland. Injection of 30 mg. sodium chloride drastically changed this distribution since only 4 per cent reached the thyroid while 96 per cent was lost in the urine (Fig. 9)."

Spoiler: Fig. 9

White: urine
Black: thyroid

"When various salts were introduced into the stomach of mice previously injected with radioiodine, it was found that either sodium or chloride ions alone could produce the effect, as well as other halides or alkalies (Table Dos). However, not all salts were effective; those such as lithium, ammonium, calcium, carbonate and acetate ions which were poorly ionized or likely to be precipitated into insoluble compounds in the body fluid were not; uncharged molecules such as glucose and water were not either (Table Dos). {}nly those substances which are likely t() cause the i[]nic concentration of blood to rise enhanced the excretion of radi[]i[]dide."


By substituting for brackets a person can get by with using profanity: it's useful because it can pass nearly unnoticed to the reader that it wasn't censored. To demonstrate this, there are words on the post in which the letter 'o' was replaced, can you spot them?

 

[Wagner83]

Oh shiτ.

I don't want to be a scaremonkey here, I'm sharing because when the body is weak, this might be relevant.

Effect of sodium chloride on the thyroid gland and on iodide metabolism∗ - ScienceDirect

"Sodium chloride modifies the clearance of iodide from the blood by the kidney, thus causing enormous losses of this ion into the urine. These losses restrict the uptake of iodine by the thyroid gland and consequently diminish the rate of synthesis and of secretion of thyroid hormone. The pituitary gland responds to the low level of this hormone in the blood by releasing thyrotropic hormone which in turn stimulates the thyroid gland. Under condition of critical iodine intake the urinary losses induce a condition of iodine deficiency which results in a persisting stimulation of the thyroid and, eventually, in goiter."


"Prolonged administration of sodium chloride may affect considerably the function as well as the morphology of the thyroid gland.[1,2] An increase in the size of the gland may even occur if the animals are fed a diet with a critical or a low iodine content . Such a diet alone may, of course, induce a goiter (Fig. 1) . This is the well-known iodine deficiency goiter which is well developed in the mouse after 2 months on the low iodine diet. When sodium chloride is added to the same diet, the mice have larger goiters (Fig. 1). The extent of this effect depends on the level of salt in the diet and also on the level of iodine. In an experiment in which various levels of sodium chloride and iodine were used, it was found that at some levels of iodine concentration sodium chloride had no effect on the weight of the thyroid gland but did produce a stimulation of the gland which was readily recognizable histologically (Fig. 2). The amount of colloid was decreased and the cells were hypertrophied. The stimulation increased with the level of NaCl and was inversely related to the level of iodine in the diet. Adding 3 per cent sodium chloride to the diet led to approximately the same thyroid condition as lowering the iodine to NaCl level in the ratio 3:1 (Fig. 2)."

Spoiler: Fig. 1

View attachment 10098

"In two groups of mice fed the low iodine diet for a period of 2 months with or without added sodium chloride, salt about doubled the amount of iodide excreted into the urine (Fig. 3). This steady loss of iodide must have reduced the amount of iodine available to the thyroid gland because 2 months after the start of the experiment the iodine content of the thyroids in the animals ingesting salt was only a quarter of that of mice not eating sodium chloride (Fig. 4). It is probable that under these conditions the rate of secretion of thyroid hormone and the hormone level in blood were low."

Spoiler: Fig. 4

View attachment 10099

"Mice were injected with radioiodine and received an intragastric injection of 30 mg. sodium chloride imnediately after. Three hours later they had excreted aa considerable amount of radioiodine in their urine, In fact, the iodide losses were ten to twenty times larger than those in the animals not receiving salt (Fig. 6). Incidentally, the radioiodine content of the thyroid was not changed (Fig. 6). This indicates that whatever effect is produced by sodium chloride on the thyroid, this effect occurs after the initial increase in urinary excretion."

"That the enormous urinary losses of iodide were actually depriving the thyroid of a large share of its normal iodide was apparent in animals sacrificed at longer time intervals. After 24 hours the radioiodine content of the thyroid was only a half that found in mice not receiving salt (Fig. 7)."

"The changes in urinary and blood radioiodide content could also be produced in thyroidectomized rats but not in nephrectomized mice (Table Uno). This is taken as further evidence that the urinary losses of iodide are the cause of the changes in iodide concentration in the blood and thyroid gland."

"Under normal conditions, about 60 per cent of the total amount of iodide administered was eliminated in the urine and 40 per cent was organified in the thyroid gland. Injection of 30 mg. sodium chloride drastically changed this distribution since only 4 per cent reached the thyroid while 96 per cent was lost in the urine (Fig. 9)."

Spoiler: Fig. 9

View attachment 10100
White: urine
Black: thyroid

"When various salts were introduced into the stomach of mice previously injected with radioiodine, it was found that either sodium or chloride ions alone could produce the effect, as well as other halides or alkalies (Table Dos). However, not all salts were effective; those such as lithium, ammonium, calcium, carbonate and acetate ions which were poorly ionized or likely to be precipitated into insoluble compounds in the body fluid were not; uncharged molecules such as glucose and water were not either (Table Dos). {}nly those substances which are likely t() cause the i[]nic concentration of blood to rise enhanced the excretion of radi[]i[]dide."


By substituting for brackets a person can get by with using profanity: it's useful because it can pass nearly unnoticed to the reader that it wasn't censored. To demonstrate this, there are words on the post in which the letter 'o' was replaced, can you spot them?

I guess this can be added to the "cheese as a main source of proteins" thread. Are the foods high in iodine ever saltless? It seems like most come from the sea.

The extent of this effect depends on the level of salt in the diet and also on the level of iodine. In an experiment in which various levels of sodium chloride and iodine were used, it was found that at some levels of iodine concentration sodium chloride had no effect on the weight of the thyroid gland but did produce a stimulation of the gland which was readily recognizable histologically (Fig. 2). The amount of colloid was decreased and the cells were hypertrophied. The stimulation increased with the level of NaCl and was inversely related to the level of iodine in the diet. Adding 3 per cent sodium chloride to the diet led to approximately the same thyroid condition as lowering the iodine to NaCl level in the ratio 3:1 (Fig. 2)."

Doesn't it mean that adequate iodine intake along with enough salt is pro-thyroid? I'm not sure what to make of the decrease in colloid*.

* The gelatinous product of the thyroid gland, consisting mainly of thyroglobulin, which serves as the precursor and storage form of thyroid hormone.

 

[Amazoniac]

Are the foods high in iodine ever saltless?

If there are foods in nature high in chlorid of soda that often appear without iodid?

I guess this can be added to the "cheese as a main source of proteins" thread.

Whey apparently is the portion that concentrates it (my brain got infected with this term from a previous post, tut). Preparation of cheese will remove most of it and add salt. Good observation!

Doesn't it mean that adequate iodine intake along with enough salt is pro-thyroid?

I guess interference was before iodine had a chance to reach the thyroid. There appears to be a division (/) in which the top had no problems but the bottom had; so it's only an issue if there's an excess of salt, deficiency of iodine or some combination of that. As iodine is increased, the problems are eased:

Spoiler: Iodid vs Chlorid of soda intakes

 

[Wagner83]

If there are foods in nature high in chlorid of soda that often appear without iodid?

Whey apparently is the portion that concentrates it (my brain got infected with this term from a previous post, tut). Preparation of cheese will remove most of it and add salt. Good observation!

I guess interference was before iodine had a chance to reach the thyroid. There appears to be a division (/) in which the top had no problems but the bottom had; so it's only an issue if there's an excess of salt, deficiency of iodine or some combination of that. As iodine is increased, the problems are eased:

Spoiler: Iodid vs Chlorid of soda intakes

View attachment 10106

What is the turnip point when a sentence isn't in English anymore?

Some people love cheese made from whey .

Burtlan right again?

 

[Amazoniac]

​

What is the turnip point when a sentence isn't in English anymore?

Some people love cheese made from whey .

Burtlan right again?

ماذا تعني؟

Those cheeses might be worse because they're prepared from leftowas, so they're doubly refined.

I suspect most of the benefit that extra sodium chloride can offer goes away once there's enough disintegration from chronic stress. In these cases you have to be more careful with stuff that can upset balance and table salt is one of them. Giving extra iodine can fry the thyroid if it already has problems.

 

[Blossom]

By substituting for brackets a person can get by with using profanity: it's useful because it can pass nearly unnoticed to the reader that it wasn't censored. To demonstrate this, there are words on the post in which the letter 'o' was replaced, can you spot them?

Yeah, y'all are so silly.

 

[Amazoniac]

Yeah, y'all are so silly.

Was that true? It has to be, at least the time that took me to find his post was real. Helpful? Will be. Inspiring? Hopefully. Necessary? No, you can use º or ◉ as substitutes. Kind? Not to the person that's going to be called assh{}le.

 

[Amazoniac]

Could Sodium Chloride be an Environmental Trigger for Immune-Mediated Diseases? An Overview of the Experimental and Clinical Evidence

"It is well known that the mean daily salt intake is excessive in most western countries (between 7 and 18 g) and even higher in Asia, and in excess compared to the World Health Organization recommendations (<5 g daily; Brown et al., 2009). Recent data have highlighted the potential role of high-salt diet in the development of experimental IMD [Institutions for Mental Disesases] models, such as collagen-induced arthritis (CIA), experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE), and experimental colitis. Indeed, mice receiving a high-salt diet have been shown to experience exacerbated colitis, CIA or EAE (Table 1). This has been associated with either an increase of inflammatory immune responses (e.g., M1 macrophages; Ip and Medzhitov, 2015; Hucke et al., 2016), pathogenic T cells (Kleinewietfeld et al., 2013; Wu et al., 2013, 2018; Wei et al., 2017; Aguiar et al., 2018), or autoantibodies (Sehnert et al., 2014) or a decrease of protective immune functions (e.g., regulatory CD4+ T cell [Treg]; Hernandez et al., 2015; Wu et al., 2018), and IL-4/IL-13 activated M2 macrophages suppressive activity (Binger et al., 2015a). These findings suggest that high-salt diet may affect the functions of innate (i.e., macrophages; Binger et al., 2015a; Hucke et al., 2016) or innate lymphoid cells [ILC] ILC3 (Aguiar et al., 2018) and adaptative (i.e., CD4+ T cells) immune cells. For instance, sodium chloride favored the polarization of pathogenic CD4+ T cells toward a T helper 17 (Th17) phenotype (see below and Table 1). All these data are supported by studies performed in healthy volunteers showing that a controlled high-salt diet is correlated with an increase of circulating inflammatory monocytes counts, as well as pro-inflammatory cytokines (e.g., IL-6, IL-17, or IL-23) (Zhou et al., 2013; Yi et al., 2015). Recently, circulating Th17 cells were analyzed in an exploratory pilot cohort of 8 healthy male volunteers before and after a high-salt challenge (Yi et al., 2015). A significant increase of IL-17A+ TNF+ CD4+ T cells was observed after this high-salt challenge. Altogether, this sheds new insights on the relationship between environmental factors, diet, and specific IMDs."​

Every time someone reports a positive experience from a massive chloride intake, it makes me question if part of the benefit was from a boost in immunity, similar to what Gerson did with iodine; it's less effective but doesn't have the risk of damaging the thyroid further.
Maybe chloride is safer when complexed with potassium, magnesium (Lancaster, 2016) or other unimportant mineral:

"Besides sodium chloride, are other salt components involved in the induction of the Th17 lymphocyte subset? For instance, potassium has been reported to be a protective cation for CD [Civil Defense] (Khalili et al., 2016)."​

--
- Elementary immunology: Na+ as a regulator of immunity
- Cutaneous Na+ Storage Strengthens the Antimicrobial Barrier Function of the Skin and Boosts Macrophage-Driven Host Defense

 

[Amazoniac]

How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?
Sodium bicarbonate on its own seems to displace calcium. A good food to pair with it should provide a decent amount of potassium and calcium, and magnesium as a plus.

I was reading the other day the combination of molasses and sodium bicarbonate for cancre treatment.
Rich in potassium; check.
Magnesium; check.
Some calcium; check.

Orange juice and dates can be better alternatives (Waremu, 2018).

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac

The perfect diet?

View attachment 12485

Low salt
High K
High Fiber (moving)
Macros are met
Low fat
Low PUFA

Throw some OJ, fresh fruit, juices in there and maybe some other stuff (meat, cheese, fish) and you got yourself the making of something good.

One thing is excessive Fe.

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

But regarding sodium chloride, no need to go low on it if the diet provides plenty of potassium and enough calcium.

I suspects that the combination of zinc (along with selenium) and table salt is useful, might be related to carbonic anhydrase.
- How Measuring My Urine pH Got Me to Love Working Out Again | Chris Masterjohn

 

[jzeno]

@Amazoniac

What are your thoughts on Gerson's suggestion to reduce salt even for the healthy person? Wouldn't that be advisable for most anyone?

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac

What are your thoughts on Gerson's suggestion to reduce salt even for the healthy person? Wouldn't that be advisable for most anyone?

Unnecessary and can be harmful for some. Increasing it can boost immunity and reveal weaknesses, and it's understandable to feel tempted to decrease it. It's preferable to focus on increasing the other electrolytes along and work on whatever needs to be addressed, and perhaps there's no need to be restrictive with it anymore.

Even in cancer it's questionable if it's desirable to be extreme (unless the case is serious) because it can contribute to the tendency to lose it (and other nutrients). The therapy might be counting on this stressful state for some of its effects:
- A Cancer Therapy By Max Gerson - Selected Parts

But it's not too worrying either because there are people who consume little salt and yet live well and long.