How Much Salt Is To Much?

[Peatress]

The solution is not as simple as you think @philalethes. Sodium Bicarbonate is not suitable for everyone. For instance, it raises my blood pressure and gives me muscle twitting. I think most people on a high calcium and orange juice diet need to be cautious of ingesting bicarbonate. Having said that I do agree the excess chloride can be a problem for a lot of people.

 

[philalethes]

The solution is not as simple as you think @philalethes. Sodium Bicarbonate is not suitable for everyone. For instance, it raises my blood pressure and gives me muscle twitting. I think most people on a high calcium and orange juice diet need to be cautious of ingesting bicarbonate. Having said that I do agree the excess chloride can be a problem for a lot of people.

That sounds like a symptom of severe renal dysfunction to me. Those symptoms occur when the kidneys are unable to excrete excess alkali, but healthy kidneys are able to excrete very large amounts of alkali without any problem at all (the blood is constantly attempting to keep its pH slightly basic at 7.35-7.45 against a variety of acid loads).

The only alternatives I can think of would be insufficient water intake or consumption of truly gargantuan amounts of sodium bicarbonate (which sounds unlikely).

Ironically, a steady intake of sodium bicarbonate at levels that don't give rise to too uncomfortable levels of hypertension (and avoiding muscle twitching as best as possible, of course) can actually greatly improve renal health long-term. The hypertension stems from the sodium causing more water to be retained, but sometimes this is exactly what you need, especially for kidney health due to how more water there can help a wide variety of issues. If you consider e.g. the analogy to water pipes, you want pressure to be high enough for the pipes to remain open and clear and for water to be delivered properly, but not so high that the pipes burst (in the body this would be analogous to ruptured vessels, and more dangerous conditions such as embolisms). You could even liken it to a more natural system of e.g. river flow, where you need sufficient flow in the river to keep the water clear and a fresh source for life downstream, whereas too little will quickly lead to stagnant and murky pond water, while too much will lead to flooding.

From personal experience, low blood pressure can feel just as bad, and even worse, than high blood pressure, and there's a lot of evidence from recent times that shows how too low blood pressure is just as much of a risk factor for disease as too high blood pressure. I typically have a very good intuition for what it feels like to have too high blood pressure, as it feels like the type of pulsating sensation you get from blood flowing to newly inflicted wounds, and of course try to avoid that, while simultaneously making sure that my blood pressure remains high enough as well.

 

[Peatress]

That sounds like a symptom of severe renal dysfunction to me. Those symptoms occur when the kidneys are unable to excrete excess alkali, but healthy kidneys are able to excrete very large amounts of alkali without any problem at all (the blood is constantly attempting to keep its pH slightly basic at 7.35-7.45 against a variety of acid loads).

The only alternatives I can think of would be insufficient water intake or consumption of truly gargantuan amounts of sodium bicarbonate (which sounds unlikely).

Ironically, a steady intake of sodium bicarbonate at levels that don't give rise to too uncomfortable levels of hypertension (and avoiding muscle twitching as best as possible, of course) can actually greatly improve renal health long-term. The hypertension stems from the sodium causing more water to be retained, but sometimes this is exactly what you need, especially for kidney health due to how more water there can help a wide variety of issues. If you consider e.g. the analogy to water pipes, you want pressure to be high enough for the pipes to remain open and clear and for water to be delivered properly, but not so high that the pipes burst (in the body this would be analogous to ruptured vessels, and more dangerous conditions such as embolisms). You could even liken it to a more natural system of e.g. river flow, where you need sufficient flow in the river to keep the water clear and a fresh source for life downstream, whereas too little will quickly lead to stagnant and murky pond water, while too much will lead to flooding.

From personal experience, low blood pressure can feel just as bad, and even worse, than high blood pressure, and there's a lot of evidence from recent times that shows how too low blood pressure is just as much of a risk factor for disease as too high blood pressure. I typically have a very good intuition for what it feels like to have too high blood pressure, as it feels like the type of pulsating sensation you get from blood flowing to newly inflicted wounds, and of course try to avoid that, while simultaneously making sure that my blood pressure remains high enough as well.

Having had low blood pressure in the past I can say I felt worst than I feel now. Low blood pressure made me feel like I was dying.

I suspect my kidneys have been compromised over the years (I've posted about the many ways my health care has taken care of me) but I don't think this is the reason I react poorly to bicarbonates. My diet is rich in fruits and milk so I do not need to add more bicarbonate. The first urine of the day is acidic but after that my urine tends to be between 6.5 and around 7. I agree with you that bicarbonate can improve renal health but I think that depends on diet. I don't drink water but I get plenty of fluids.

Perhaps I need to get my kidneys checked.

 

[Mossy]

That sounds like a symptom of severe renal dysfunction to me. Those symptoms occur when the kidneys are unable to excrete excess alkali, but healthy kidneys are able to excrete very large amounts of alkali without any problem at all (the blood is constantly attempting to keep its pH slightly basic at 7.35-7.45 against a variety of acid loads).

Interesting. I too have difficulty taking sodium bicarbonate. I simply feel bad on anything beyond a smidgen, at most. You would say kidneys are the issue, not liver? I've always felt I've had a bad liver, by my poor reaction to all supplements and some foods.

 

[Peater]

The solution is not as simple as you think @philalethes. Sodium Bicarbonate is not suitable for everyone. For instance, it raises my blood pressure and gives me muscle twitting. I think most people on a high calcium and orange juice diet need to be cautious of ingesting bicarbonate. Having said that I do agree the excess chloride can be a problem for a lot of people.

I had horrific cramps during swimming once while taking regular sodium bicarb (I actually really liked the effect it had on me) - I could see 'waves' of cramp moving across my calf muscle. Copious amounts of canning salt doesn't have this effect.

That said, I can see the logic behind what @philalethes is saying.

 

[Peatress]

I had horrific cramps during swimming once while taking regular sodium bicarb (I actually really liked the effect it had on me) - I could see 'waves' of cramp moving across my calf muscle. Copious amounts of canning salt doesn't have this effect.

That said, I can see the logic behind what @philalethes is saying.

I'm confused. You had "horrific cramps" which you liked?

Interesting. I too have difficulty taking sodium bicarbonate. I simply feel bad on anything beyond a smidgen, at most. You would say kidneys are the issue, not liver? I've always felt I've had a bad liver, by my poor reaction to all supplements and some foods.

I wouldn't worry about not being able to tolerate sodium bicarbonate. It is not a prerequisite for good health.

 

[Peater]

I'm confused. You had "horrific cramps" which you liked?

I mean I was taking it until the cramps started.

 

[Peatress]

I mean I was taking it until the cramps started.

I guess too much of a good thing.

 

[Peater]

I guess too much of a good thing.

Possibly but that's what I'm saying, my 'normal' salt intake was far higher.

 

[Peatress]

Possibly but that's what I'm saying, my 'normal' salt intake was far higher.

Salt (sodium chloride) and sodium bicarbonate act very differently in the body - you know this of course.

 

[Mossy]

I wouldn't worry about not being able to tolerate sodium bicarbonate. It is not a prerequisite for good health.

 

[Kyle970]

while simultaneously making sure that my blood pressure remains high enough as well.

How are you doing that, more salt? Does the adrenals play a role in this? Thyroid as well?

 

[AinmAnseo]

Humans need a lot of sodium, but not nearly as much chloride. In fact, the vast majority of health complications that are typically associated with high intake of sodium is actually from high intake of chloride, due to the fact that people tend to consume sodium chloride ("salt"). This is also true for intravenous solutions of saline, which over the years have come to be associated with the exact same problems. It's because of all of the chloride that large amounts of sodium chloride starts tasting bad; in fact, if you pay close attention, you will notice that it starts tasting and smelling almost like chlorine does, if you know how that is from e.g. chlorinated waters like swimming pools.

In our natural environment (the tropical equatorial rainforest) the vast majority of sodium we'd get would be without all that extra chloride; it'd largely be organic sodium salts (i.e. not sodium chloride) as found in various fruits, piths, and even freshwater plants (bonobos in particular have been found to wade into small lakes and ponds to forage for such sodium-rich plants, and note that this is far away from any source of seawater).

So the solution is rather simple, which you've intuitively found out: replace as much sodium chloride as feels good with sodium bicarbonate instead. I've done that for a long time, and use it to cook otherwise acidic foods too, like thoroughly boiled legumes in a solution of sodium bicarbonate (you know it's working when you see carbon dioxide foam start to form and be released from your pot), which is essentially not very different from how masa harina is traditionally prepared, except in that particular case calcium hydroxide is used (but in other traditional cuisines, it's been common to use carbonates of both sodium and potassium, such as e.g. Japanese kansui that's used to make ramen noodles).

This seems like a good idea.
We happen to have some typical baking soda around (arm & hammer).
Is there any difference between that and the baking soda "supplements" that I see on amazon?
Paul