How much pure Testosterone is safe to use?

[Lancaster]

This study provides for the first time the structural and functional evidence of a time-dependent induction of cardiac hypertrophy toward pathological state after treatment with every supra-physiological dose of testosterone. Short-term testosterone treatment induced physiological cardiac hypertrophy with contractile maintenance and MHC isoform switching toward α-MHC. Upon the long-term treatment of high testosterone, cardiac hypertrophy was apparent with myocardial deposition of collagen and contractile reduction in active tension without affecting MHC isoforms (Table 1 and Figs 1, 3, 4, 5). Reductions in ERK1/2 and mTOR activation may serve as possible underlying mechanism of this long-term testosterone-induced cardiac transition toward pathological hypertrophy. Our data suggest that physiological cardiac hypertrophy occurs during the early phase of high testosterone administration; however, the pathological outcome of cardiac hypertrophy will be resulted upon the prolonged treatment.

http://healthsci.swu.ac.th/sites/default/files/field/attachments/%E0%B8%9C%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%B5%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%9E%E0%B9%8C_Prapawadee.pdf

In rats, with serum concentrations equivalent to 3770 ng/dl in T10 and 4300 ng/dl in T20 — levels that nobody advocates for, nor claims are safe.

 

[ecstatichamster]

well I don't know what is safe, but I think supraphysiological doses can't be safe so I avoid them.

 

[opethfeldt]

well I don't know what is safe, but I think supraphysiological doses can't be safe so I avoid them.

I thought dhea, preg and prog were all you personally needed to optimize testosterone? Why experiment with test? Just for fun?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I thought dhea, preg and prog were all you personally needed to optimize testosterone? Why experiment with test? Just for fun?

I haven't taken it but I have some. I have tried DHT just to see what it is about.

 

[Donttreadonme]

Any amount of exogenous testosterone will raise rbc so steroid users frequently donate blood... Plus you need to take hcg for your testicles. So its up to you to weigh the risks.

 

[opethfeldt]

I haven't taken it but I have some. I have tried DHT just to see what it is about.

Ah ok. Curious to hear your experience with it.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Ah ok. Curious to hear your experience with it.

it gave me tremendous mental clarity and made me feel placid. It diminishes stress hormones so noticably.

 

[Pope Tupung]

This study provides for the first time the structural and functional evidence of a time-dependent induction of cardiac hypertrophy toward pathological state after treatment with every supra-physiological dose of testosterone. Short-term testosterone treatment induced physiological cardiac hypertrophy with contractile maintenance and MHC isoform switching toward α-MHC. Upon the long-term treatment of high testosterone, cardiac hypertrophy was apparent with myocardial deposition of collagen and contractile reduction in active tension without affecting MHC isoforms (Table 1 and Figs 1, 3, 4, 5). Reductions in ERK1/2 and mTOR activation may serve as possible underlying mechanism of this long-term testosterone-induced cardiac transition toward pathological hypertrophy. Our data suggest that physiological cardiac hypertrophy occurs during the early phase of high testosterone administration; however, the pathological outcome of cardiac hypertrophy will be resulted upon the prolonged treatment.

http://healthsci.swu.ac.th/sites/default/files/field/attachments/%E0%B8%9C%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%B5%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%9E%E0%B9%8C_Prapawadee.pdf

Great find, it shows testosterone in very high doses is protective against EO (or aging, hard to tell w/o a control group), even w/o an AI.

Men on very high dose T w/ AI and no EO or other toxic oils can probably expect excellent heart health

 

[TheBeard]

Any amount of exogenous testosterone will raise rbc so steroid users frequently donate blood... Plus you need to take hcg for your testicles. So its up to you to weigh the risks.

This hasn't been seen with testosterone base, only with esterified test.

 

[Yucca]

I take preg for more than 6 months, and no side effects at all, other than bigger balls, better memory, and no brainfog anymore on mornings.

 

[Lancaster]

I thought dhea, preg and prog were all you personally needed to optimize testosterone? Why experiment with test? Just for fun?

Because whilst the combination of restoring glucose oxidation with thyroid + taking upstream steroids to increase testosterone sounds great on paper, it doesn't have much real-world efficacy.
I know of numerous men who corrected their above-range TSH and low body temperature with 1-3 grains armour thyroid, yet their testosterone levels never got above 14 nmol/l (~400 ng/dl), even with DHEA and progesterone supplementation.
If there was a way to consistently and repeatedly increase testosterone levels in hypogonadal men without using testosterone, we wouldn't prescribe testosterone.

 

[Lancaster]

This hasn't been seen with testosterone base, only with esterified test.

Transdermal administration is certainly associated with reduced rates of erythrocytosis, but it's still possible/occurs:
Erythrocytosis Following Testosterone Therapy

Excessive RBC production appears to be the by-product of loss of 24h variation in serum level per natural diurnal production, as erythrocytosis occurs when trough serum levels remain chronically elevated, as is the case with frequent administration of medium-long acting esters like cyp, enanthate, undecanoate, pellets, etc.
Trough serum testosterone predicts the development of polycythemia in hypogonadal men treated for up to 21 years with subcutaneous testosterone pellets

The interesting point is that the available data (which is weak and sparse, albeit) suggests more testosterone does not = higher HCT in a linear manner — instead, there appears to be a saturation point in the pathway that facilitates excessive RBC production, which operates more in an 'on or off' manner. In accordance, the short half-life of transdermal, non-esterified testosterone, and perhaps prop and oral test U too, all permit serum levels to drop below the point that triggers the EPO production and/or suppression of hepcidin responsible erythrocytosis at least once over a 24h period.
Testosterone Suppresses Hepcidin in Men: A Potential Mechanism for Testosterone-Induced Erythrocytosis

All of the above is under the assumption that high HCT/RBC is an issue, which itself is up for debate:


View: https://youtu.be/mH-J5kXU-jQ

 

[Cecilia L.]

Can I please have your help for my husband ... he is 45 super low T and feeling it. I purchased Lowtiyel testosterone gel 50mg.
It says each 2.5 to 5.0 g approximate 25 mg or 50 mg is a full packet too much to start with?

 

[supercoolguy]

Give Blood to Drop Iron

 

[TheBeard]

Can I please have your help for my husband ... he is 45 super low T and feeling it. I purchased Lowtiyel testosterone gel 50mg.
It says each 2.5 to 5.0 g approximate 25 mg or 50 mg is a full packet too much to start with?

One full sachet am and one full sachet pm.

These are very poorly concentrated, he'll maybe feel normal at the dose I advised.

Apply on abdomen, not on scrotum.

 

[Cecilia L.]

One full sachet am and one full sachet pm.

These are very poorly concentrated, he'll maybe feel normal at the dose I advised.

Apply on abdomen, not on scrotum.

Thanks so much for your help! any other brands and doses i could try for him after these are done? I only bought 1 month worth
Any DHT brands you trust and like?

 

[Peroxphos]

I tend to believe the 3 - 7mg per day estimations — 25mg transcrotal testosterone sends my levels well into supraphysiological territory (not my aim nor intention), whilst simultaneously suppressing progesterone and estradiol.

Tom, what was your reasoning for applying 25mg T transcrotal and expecting that to *not* send you into supraphysiological territory?

Are you sure that exactly 25mg went into the blood and cells? What was the carrier and what absorption do you estimate it has?

Was the blood test after a single application or after a few days of once-daily or bi-daily 25mg/day?

 

[Lancaster]

Tom, what was your reasoning for applying 25mg T transcrotal and expecting that to *not* send you into supraphysiological territory?

Because contrary to the regular 1 - 3mg dose recommendations that you'll find around here, the vast majority of men who use transscrotal cream for replacement need 100 - 300mg per day split into two doses in order to raise serum TT and fT to levels that produce symptom resolution.

50mg cream only raised serum TT to ~700 ng/dl at peak, with levels already back in the low 400's less than 24h after administration — refer to figure 1:
Pharmacokinetics of testosterone cream applied to scrotal skin

I do not know why I am a hyper-responder to low doses of transscrotal cream, as I use the same base as numerous others I know who need well into the 200mg range.
To be clear, I was not suggesting that all men on TRT should be using 25mg or less transscrotal cream, as that would leave the vast, vast majority of them hypogonadal for a significant proportion of the day. My point was just to demonstrate that, assuming close to maximal absorption (which is the only explanation for such a dose to produce such levels), 25mg per day producing TT levels that high falls in-line with general estimations of 3 - 7mg endogenous production evoking ~450 - 1000 ng/dl TT.

 

[Peroxphos]

Because contrary to the regular 1 - 3mg dose recommendations that you'll find around here, the vast majority of men who use transscrotal cream for replacement need 100 - 300mg per day split into two doses in order to raise serum TT and fT to levels that produce symptom resolution.

50mg cream only raised serum TT to ~700 ng/dl at peak, with levels already back in the low 400's less than 24h after administration — refer to figure 1:
Pharmacokinetics of testosterone cream applied to scrotal skin

I do not know why I am a hyper-responder to low doses of transscrotal cream, as I use the same base as numerous others I know who need well into the 200mg range.
To be clear, I was not suggesting that all men on TRT should be using 25mg or less transscrotal cream, as that would leave the vast, vast majority of them hypogonadal for a significant proportion of the day. My point was just to demonstrate that, assuming close to maximal absorption (which is the only explanation for such a dose to produce such levels), 25mg per day producing TT levels that high falls in-line with general estimations of 3 - 7mg endogenous production evoking ~450 - 1000 ng/dl TT.

Thanks this makes total sense.

In your experience, is 1000 ng/dl TT the level necessary to resolve all resolvable symptoms? Or higher levels might sometimes be needed?