How I Got Myself To Tolerate Starches Better

Cirion

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Could be higher tryptophan thus higher serotonin. The milk could also have irritated my gut too much in high quantities. Low B3. Too much calcium? Too little Mg and Mn. Bad quality of cows or nutrient degeneration due to UHT pasteurisation. Don't really know as it could be a few things, some we don't even know of yet. A calorie is not a calories.

Haidut posted a while back saying that some commercial milks may have carrageenan gum (and other irritants) in the product but not required by law to list them as ingredients because the quantity per serving would be below the threshold of government mandation to report it.

A calorie is not a calories.

Oh NOW you've gone and done it!!! LOL be glad you didn't post this on somewhere like the bodybuilding.com forums =P I agree with you, but it's funny because this statement always riles people up.
 

meatbag

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Yeah beef is great. I wanted to believe I could do good on milk, but seems I have to limit it.

Could be higher tryptophan thus higher serotonin. The milk could also have irritated my gut too much in high quantities. Low B3. Too much calcium? Too little Mg and Mn. Bad quality of cows or nutrient degeneration due to UHT pasteurisation. Don't really know as it could be a few things, some we don't even know of yet. A calorie is not a calories.

Okay I'll have to take your word for it, I don't think muscle meat is bad just that it can be too much phosphate and gelatin needs to be consumed with it. Do you think you're total calorie/protein intake changed much when you switched?

I think it's easier to consume a lot more total protein with meat unless you were measuring everything
 
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Hans

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Haidut posted a while back saying that some commercial milks may have carrageenan gum (and other irritants) in the product but not required by law to list them as ingredients because the quantity per serving would be below the threshold of government mandation to report it.
Yeah I saw that. I'm pretty sure they throw all other kinds of stuff in the milk as well so I guess it's best avoided unless you're absolutely certain you can get good quality raw milk, which is also almost impossible.

Oh NOW you've gone and done it!!! LOL be glad you didn't post this on somewhere like the bodybuilding.com forums =P I agree with you, but it's funny because this statement always riles people up.
Haha well at least other bodybuilding gurus are also aware of this. I guess it's too hard for people to experiment with their own diet intuitively to see what works best for them and then they rather stick to the calories theory.
 

meatbag

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Haidut posted a while back saying that some commercial milks may have carrageenan gum (and other irritants) in the product but not required by law to list them as ingredients because the quantity per serving would be below the threshold of government mandation to report it.



Oh NOW you've gone and done it!!! LOL be glad you didn't post this on somewhere like the bodybuilding.com forums =P I agree with you, but it's funny because this statement always riles people up.

I think he was referring to the flavored (vanilla, strawberry) milk products and pre bottled protein shakes, hopefully...

Yeah there is real data showing that although a protein and a carbohydrate are measured as having a value of 4 kcal in a calorimeter protein has a thermic effect in the organism that makes its real value closer to 3 kcal
 
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Hans

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Okay I'll have to take your word for it, I don't think muscle meat is bad just that it can be too much phosphate and gelatin needs to be consumed with it. Do you think you're total calorie/protein intake changed much when you switched?

I think it's easier to consume a lot more total protein with meat unless you were measuring everything
Milk has more phosphate than meat. Other than that I use a calcium supplement now. It's no hassle. Your body needs the phosphate, it's not a poison.

Milk is also very low in glycine and ground beef has a great glycine:methionine ratio than milk. Also adding extra glycine is no problemo.

When I switched, my protein went up slightly as well as my fat and carbs. So everything went up. I'm always measuring lol. You got to keep track of what worked and what didn't.
 
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I think he was referring to the flavored (vanilla, strawberry) milk products and pre bottled protein shakes, hopefully...

Yeah there is real data showing that although a protein and a carbohydrate are measured as having a value of 4 kcal in a calorimeter protein has a thermic effect in the organism that makes its real value closer to 3 kcal
Apart from the thermogenic effect of macros, your body responds different to the food matrix and every food can have a different effect. Eat a certain diet for a week or two and then switch it up and you'll see a change in your body.
 

meatbag

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Milk has more phosphate than meat. Other than that I use a calcium supplement now. It's no hassle. Your body needs the phosphate, it's not a poison.

Milk is also very low in glycine and ground beef has a great glycine:methionine ratio than milk. Also adding extra glycine is no problemo.

When I switched, my protein went up slightly as well as my fat and carbs. So everything went up. I'm always measuring lol. You got to keep track of what worked and what didn't.

I don't think phosphate is a poison. I just think Ray is right about the ratio needing to favor calcium; and milk has a more favorable ratio despite having more total phosphate, and the fact that so many people get all of their protein from ONLY muscle meat, and as you mentioned it easy to get more gelatin. When I started trying Ray's dietary recommendations I didn't think it was a big deal but I now I'm pretty convinced. That said a person has to follow their own guidance system, so I hope you'll keep us posted on your results :cool:
 

meatbag

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Apart from the thermogenic effect of macros, your body responds different to the food matrix and every food can have a different effect. Eat a certain diet for a week or two and then switch it up and you'll see a change in your body.
yeah I don't disagree
 
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Hans

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I don't think phosphate is a poison. I just think Ray is right about the ratio needing to favor calcium; and milk has a more favorable ratio despite having more total phosphate, and the fact that so many people get all of their protein from ONLY muscle meat, and as you mentioned it easy to get more gelatin. When I started trying Ray's dietary recommendations I didn't think it was a big deal but I now I'm pretty convinced. That said a person has to follow their own guidance system, so I hope you'll keep us posted on your results :cool:
Actually so many people on this forum avoid meat, because of the fear mongering about phosphate, iron, methionine, etc, and end up eating mostly gelatin, isolated amino acids, protein powders, etc, and end up with terrible health.
I have nothing against milk, I still think milk is awesome, but I just seem to pick up weight if I ingest more than a certain amount. I think over 1L is my cut off point.
Everyone is different though.

And I'll definitely keep you posted :).
 

Cirion

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What calcium supplement do you take? I'm not keen on supplements, but I also cannot deny that Ray peat is right about (almost) everything he says,, so I wonder if I might see health improvements while taking a quality calcium supplement while eating a low-zero dairy diet. Nathan hatch likes calcium carbonate.

edit - saw that you already answered this. With eggshell calcium do you grind your own eggshells or buy it as its own product? And how does this compare to calcium carbonate?
 
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What calcium supplement do you take? I'm not keen on supplements, but I also cannot deny that Ray peat is right about (almost) everything he says,, so I wonder if I might see health improvements while taking a quality calcium supplement while eating a low-zero dairy diet. Nathan hatch likes calcium carbonate.

edit - saw that you already answered this. With eggshell calcium do you grind your own eggshells or buy it as its own product? And how does this compare to calcium carbonate?
I grind my own shells and I have not used any other calcium supplement so I can't comment on how it compares sorry.
 

Lynne

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I gotcha, not trying to be argumentative, just making conversation, as I always enjoy these discussions. Yeah, I tried some low-fat milk for a while and just didn't like it. Turns out I am extremely sensitive to tryptophan. So, I agree, macros aren't the full picture - the foods that fit those macros matter also. Just to give you an idea how bad tryptophan can be, I've gained upwards of three pounds overnight simply by adding 100 calories of no-fat cheese to my evening meal of potatoes. That is just insane. So the key is to eat foods you can tolerate. This also lets you eat more food and not get fat. I think the ultimate diet is the one that lets you eat extreme high calories and not get fat, because high calories reduces stress like crazy (As long as the foods don't cause stress).

I don't like low fat milk either and I'm pretty sure I'm sensitive to tryptophan too (perhaps associated with my low tyramine tolerance) but low fat dairy seems to have the opposite effect on me: I lose weight, and I can't afford to as I'm thin.
 

Cirion

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I don't like low fat milk either and I'm pretty sure I'm sensitive to tryptophan too (perhaps associated with my low tyramine tolerance) but low fat dairy seems to have the opposite effect on me: I lose weight, and I can't afford to as I'm thin.

Wanna trade places? LOL. What's your secret? :D

Wanna gain weight? Pound haagen daz. That made me fat like no other food. (Actually, don't do that, gaining fat isn't something you really want to do even if you're underweight, lean mass is always better)

Maybe you're converting the tryptophan to niacin and it's speeding your metabolism up a little too much?? Boggles my mind to imagine, but I guess it's possible.
 

Lynne

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Wanna trade places? LOL. What's your secret? :D

Wanna gain weight? Pound haagen daz. That made me fat like no other food. (Actually, don't do that, gaining fat isn't something you really want to do even if you're underweight, lean mass is always better)

Maybe you're converting the tryptophan to niacin and it's speeding your metabolism up a little too much?? Boggles my mind to imagine, but I guess it's possible.

Ha ha, no I've always had trouble with not being able to gain weight. The only thing that's made me exceed my normal maximum weight has been the contraceptive pill (10kg in 2years and felt terrible in a multitude of ways so stopped it). I tried eating 0.5-1 litre of icecream most days for a few months last year and, while it helped me to gain back some lost weight (about 2kg) to my previous level, it also brought on vitamin A toxicity symptoms (which is why I swithed to low fat milk). Like you I seem to generally do better on low fat.
Cheeers for the suggestion re niacin. It could be that as I lose more weight on higher protein foods and legumes, which seem to be the main sources of it. I think my metabolism is on the lower side though, as I feel the cold, but I'll look into it a bit more.
 
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TripleOG

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@Hans

What brand stearic acid have you used and how much per serving?

Last one I tried (Amazon) didn't go so well. Haven't tried the stew/soup method, may give that a spin soon.
 

CLASH

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Ground meat’s amino acid profile is significantly better than milk. It may not even need to have gelatin added.

For calcium, if you add calcium carbonate powder, with magnesium gluconate and vitamin C to juice you can succesfully react the calcium carbonate with the ascorbic acid and you get a carbonated juice drink that eases the acidity of ascorbic acid on the stomach and is high in calcium, magnesium, pottasium, sugars, micronutrients, antioxidants and vit c. A great intra-workout for all those who lift ;)

Milk contains hormones and opiate peptides. The opiate peptides can interact with dopamine and effect prolactin leading to lower androgens, especially non-A2 milk varieties. The purpose of milk is weight gain for young mammals. Fat and sugar together in the form of beef tallow, coconut oil, cocoa butter and fruit sugars wont make you fat. Refined sugars may not even make you fat, although I think they are sub par in comparison to fruit. The common example here of ice cream for weight gain is due to other factors besides the fat and sugar content. Again I think its the hormones in the dairy.

Despite the low fat dogma on this forum with all the rationalizations and mental gyrations people are employing I think many people will find if they experiment with 2 weeks of a higher fat diet they will actually lose the weight on thier belly and thier muscularity may increase. I wouldnt use dairy fat tho, again the hormones are an issue. Beef tallow or cocoa butter would work nicely. Coconut oil in my experience is just a side to the long chain fats, its not a good main fat source as it burns like sugar.

EDIT: no need to supplement stearic acid if your using beef tallow or cocoa butter, both are high in that fatty acid. Both are also very low in linoleic acid and PUFA in general.
 
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I don't like low fat milk either and I'm pretty sure I'm sensitive to tryptophan too (perhaps associated with my low tyramine tolerance) but low fat dairy seems to have the opposite effect on me: I lose weight, and I can't afford to as I'm thin.
I think Peat said that serotonin is involved in cachexia( excesive weight loss) seen in cancer patients and AIDS patients. Considering the fibrotic, degenrative properties of serotonin, and considering that tryptophan is the only precursor for this neurotransmiter, I think it makes sense that milk would cause you to lose weight.
 

Lynne

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I think Peat said that serotonin is involved in cachexia( excesive weight loss) seen in cancer patients and AIDS patients. Considering the fibrotic, degenrative properties of serotonin, and considering that tryptophan is the only precursor for this neurotransmiter, I think it makes sense that milk would cause you to lose weight.

Thanks, this sounds reasonable. I know I have a problem with food high in Tyramine and natural MAOIs, particularly cominations of the 2 (despite never having taken pharmaceutical MAOIs).
 
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Hans

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@Hans

What brand stearic acid have you used and how much per serving?

Last one I tried (Amazon) didn't go so well. Haven't tried the stew/soup method, may give that a spin soon.
I'm using a local brand and I use about 1 tsp to 1 tbsp a day. I make sure it dissolves perfectly, so any hot food can work. Liquids only, not so much
 

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The problem is unless you wanna live on MCT oil and hydrogenated coconut oil, it's hard to keep PUFA low while on a diet of 80-100 gram fat. And I don't do well on MCT oil and HCO, sooo... yeah.

What's OGTT? I am sure my glucose and insulin levels are probably quite FUBAR even without testing for them lol.

My current experiment is like 1,000 gram carb but virtually zero fat (Trying to see if I can get under 10 gram a day). Am at about 10-20 gram a day now, until I can find some 98% lean beef (96% currently). Extremely high calorie (4-5k a day) is the only way to sleep through the night without frequent urination, as well as not feel like crap in the morning etc. However, 4-5k calorie with anything more than 20 gram of fat makes me gain weight, so that's why I'm trying this 1000 carb experiment for a bit to see how it goes. Last night I slept 9 hr without one nightly urination, which is huge for me, so we shall see.

Try calf beef for low fat beef. I get a lean cut from that which has 1,4% fat.
 

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