How Does MDMA Make One High Through Serotonin?

[Ben]

People sometimes argue that MDMA increases serotonin, so how can a serotonin antagonist act like an antidepressant. I have never tried it nor do I have any desire to, but how does MDMA make one feel good, high, emphatic, etc, if serotonin makes one feel apathetic, depressed, dull, etc? It seems to confuse people and fuel the theory that low serotonin causes depression.

 

[Aspekt]

Anecdotally, it seems to complete displace serotonin for me, the usual sensitivity and discomfort I have in my abdomen which I can now recognize as symptom of a stress state is completely dissipated on it, bringing with it a sense of peace and joy that is unmatched anywhere in sobriety. I haven't looked into the specific mechanisms too much but it seems probable that research in this area is prone to the same delusions that would paint serotonin as the happy hormone. There was an interesting study on the forums a while back that showed rats genetically modified to not produce serotonin had no higher rate of learned helplessness than the control.

 

[kiran]

MDMA is an amphetamine and aside from any serotonergic properties, that alone should be adequate to make you feel high.

 

[Ben]

Anecdotally, it seems to complete displace serotonin for me, the usual sensitivity and discomfort I have in my abdomen which I can now recognize as symptom of a stress state is completely dissipated on it, bringing with it a sense of peace and joy that is unmatched anywhere in sobriety. I haven't looked into the specific mechanisms too much but it seems probable that research in this area is prone to the same delusions that would paint serotonin as the happy hormone. There was an interesting study on the forums a while back that showed rats genetically modified to not produce serotonin had no higher rate of learned helplessness than the control.

I thought psychedelics had that property, of "making new associations or meanings with things to combat learned helplessness" or something like that, which RP wrote about psychedelics. MDMA is only mildly psychedelic though.

Maybe it causes helplessness on every level, then combined with the amphetaminergic effect, the result is being helpless, but feeling good.

 

[Ben]

MDMA is an amphetamine and aside from any serotonergic properties, that alone should be adequate to make you feel high.

Yes, but MDMA is not usually compared to meth and cocaine, but shrooms and marijuana. It has a more prominent effect on empathy and less of a stimulant effect, although I wouldn't put it in the group with shrooms and marijuana. First of all, less medicinal. Second of all, more harmful. More addictive. But not as much so as the strong street stimulants.

 

[kiran]

MDMA is an amphetamine and aside from any serotonergic properties, that alone should be adequate to make you feel high.

Yes, but MDMA is not usually compared to meth and cocaine, but shrooms and marijuana. It has a more prominent effect on empathy and less of a stimulant effect, although I wouldn't put it in the group with shrooms and marijuana. First of all, less medicinal. Second of all, more harmful. More addictive. But not as much so as the strong street stimulants.

You can't sleep on it though, so it is a bit of a stimulant. Perhaps not as much as methamphetamine, but still.

 

[paper_clips43]

You can't sleep on mushrooms either or LSD.

I think MDMA releases a lot more than just serotonin such as oxytocin which may contribute to the "high".

 

[miko]

MDMA is working on dopamine and serotonin - serotonin effects of this drug are associated with feelings of empathy and connectivity with others - it's mainly via 5-HT1a and 5-HT2a receptors mediated oxytocin release. Agonism of many serotonin receptors result in dopamine release - 5-HT1a, 5-HT2a, 5-HT3 and probably 5-HT4 with others. It's counteracted by 5-HT2c agonism that cause dopamine release shutdown.

MDMA not work like SSRI antidepressants - it is much more potent than SSRI because it trigger serotonin release. After MDMA hard use you can drain your serotonin and this can cause depression.

I think Peat is right with many of the bad effects of serotonin (HPA axis activity increase, excitotoxicity, ATP decrease etc.), but it's hard for me to agree with no association of serotonin system with depression, or most precisely with serotonin "overactivity" in depression.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Serotonin has been with us for a long time, so many parts have learned and can learn to do their own thing with it, I'm not sure it is useful to regard it as a "quantity" or a "thing". I think it is a system to be kept as tight as possible and as not busy as possible. Besides, when you see someone on MDMA you will find it hard not to notice that he is, first of all, on an amphetamine.

 

[Ben]

MDMA is working on dopamine and serotonin - serotonin effects of this drug are associated with feelings of empathy and connectivity with others - it's mainly via 5-HT1a and 5-HT2a receptors mediated oxytocin release. Agonism of many serotonin receptors result in dopamine release - 5-HT1a, 5-HT2a, 5-HT3 and probably 5-HT4 with others. It's counteracted by 5-HT2c agonism that cause dopamine release shutdown.

MDMA not work like SSRI antidepressants - it is much more potent than SSRI because it trigger serotonin release. After MDMA hard use you can drain your serotonin and this can cause depression.

I think Peat is right with many of the bad effects of serotonin (HPA axis activity increase, excitotoxicity, ATP decrease etc.), but it's hard for me to agree with no association of serotonin system with depression, or most precisely with serotonin "overactivity" in depression.

Well, RP says serotonin is correlated with learned helplessness, which causes depression. But why would drainage of serotonin cause depression? Less dopamine release? I recall a study that showed SSRIs don't work if dopamine antagonists are administered. But then, what about draining serotonin with tryptophan restriction or pCPA? How is that any different?

I also found it interesting that serotonin increases empathy. Maybe that, along with a decrease in testosterone which high serotonin is correlated with, can produce subordinate behavior. But it begs the question: Is selfishness a result of good health?

I know that in July, with my chakra openings and Kundalini Awakening, I didn't lose my selfishness, but it became my goal to help the whole world instead of just myself. It's something indescribable, you don't do it for any particular reason in this state, that's just what you know, not believe, to be right and nothing can ever change your mind about this, because truth can always be felt.

At the same time, I get along best with people who give to me in exchange for nothing. I am very dominant, but very altruistic. So maybe the "empathy" from serotonin is meant to produce submissive behavior, rather than altruism and a true concern for the direction of humanity.

Another study showed that dominant people have better mental health than submissive people. I thought it was due to higher boldness, but apparently serotonin appears to have a more direct involvement than boldness in determining this, and of course lower serotonin causes better mental health.

And lastly, glad I remembered, some men claim that being healthier makes them more dominant. Someone on Peatarian named "Ivysaur" I think, said when he was stressed out, he was more submissive, and vice versa with being healthier.

 

[miko]

I was on many of SSRI even with high dosages like 60 mg of paroxetine (the strongest serotonin drug of SSRIs) and my observations are that serotonin decrease impulse behaviour and aggression (I was unable to be mad), serotonin increase patience.

There is new study that shows it increase waiting capacity but it's not rewarding:
"Serotonin: Waiting but Not Rewarding"

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2214016200

I don't know if it's healthy or not. I think people that express their emotions are more healthy. I have depression but I don't like effects of serotonin drugs - they don't elevate my mood, they make me plush and poor, anxious and unmotivated. I think serotonin can decrease dopamine release in some parts of brain and that's why serotonin drugs can cause low motivation, anhedonia, low libido etc.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Serotonin reverses dominant social status
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166432800003934

 

[Curt :-)]

I don't think MDMA increases serotonin initially. I think it increases dopamine, and then once you've come down, perhaps the stress of the high increases serotonin (or perhaps it temporarily "depletes dopamine").

Either way, I did not feel helpless or subordinate on MDMA. I felt profoundly empathetic, energised yet calm. I don't consider it a stimulant, even though it's technically an amphetamine. I disagree with Such Saturations comment that you can easily tell when someone's on MDMA; poor quality stuff is often cut with amphetamines and can jack people up, but pure MDMA is a VERY calm/clean high.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Well there are kids waking up every Sunday with new livers, and I'd like to ascribe that to context and cutting as much as you, but it probably is wishful thinking. Here are examples but there are thousands more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21864684
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18594849

 

[juanitacarlos]

I don't think MDMA increases serotonin initially. I think it increases dopamine, and then once you've come down, perhaps the stress of the high increases serotonin (or perhaps it temporarily "depletes dopamine").

Either way, I did not feel helpless or subordinate on MDMA. I felt profoundly empathetic, energised yet calm. I don't consider it a stimulant, even though it's technically an amphetamine. I disagree with Such Saturations comment that you can easily tell when someone's on MDMA; poor quality stuff is often cut with amphetamines and can jack people up, but pure MDMA is a VERY calm/clean high.

agreed. I'm very calm on MDMA - almost blissful. I get good ***t though.

 

[pboy]

ive never taken MDMA but have had lot of experience with other similar things, and just a lot of herbal stuff...and have had high serotonin at points and know what its like...and the illusion of why many might think it feels good. Its not a true good feeling, im sure with MDMA the amphetamine portion masks and overcomes some of serotonin's effects, which is why people are still active and awake on MDMA, tho I have seen a friend at a party pass out on the concrete right in the middle of the action after having taken MDMA ..I guess it started wearing out. Seretonin seems to enhance tactile sensation, but it kind of dumbs you down and makes you weak and susceptible to infections and BS. Its not a true feeling of happiness that comes with sharp mind, wakefulness, and most importantly capability and strength of resolve. Its more the...massage me, tickle me, serenade me, but basically I can only sit here and not really do anything...and when serotonin is high, information isn't assimilated properly..its like you'll be watching a video or listening to something and rather than actually listening to the concepts, thinking about it, assimilating it...its more just hearing the sounds and having them massage you...but nothing valuable happens and you'll forget it all or basically have not even heard it.

Most people and society, because of the diet and lifestyle since they were young, and the fact just about everyone is perpetually constipated and has irritating foods in their intestine...they think 'feeling good' is like when you eat a large meal and get lazy and can laze around on the couch...its more a sedation escape feeling. Almost no one actually knows what its like to feel good in a doped, healhy, clean intestine, fully nourished, capable way. Once you've tasted that, anything that provokes serotonin and makes you wanna lay down and receive massage or whatever is offensive, because you realize its just weakening.

The whole empathetic thing, I hate to say it (but don't), is actually a bad thing. Not that empathy is bad...but theres a reason you have the desire to avoid certain people or things and not leak energy towards them...over time such interactions not only drain you but fill your mind and life with non optimal, dragging down, weakening things. I know exactly what its like to have high serotonin...it is very hard to get mad or judgemental at first, but its not in a healthy way. It leaves you open to being taken advantage of, and being propagandized, and leaking your time and energy to parasitical or unworthy people and things...and over time youll never get anywhere, do anything, accomplish anything, or grow in a true meaningful way.

A true feeling of doped happiness, strength, wakefulness, acuity of senses, capability, just allows you to avoid negative influences, and actually promote the good things without being tempted or lulled by BS or propaganda, or lazy negative people, and doesn't allow you to accept sub par sad depressed average toxic things as 'ok'. The 'empathy' is really just a weakness that allows complacency in and for things that are totally not ok at all, and that you should be immune to, and have the intelligence, awareness, and capability to avoid and change

 

[TeslaFan]

ive never taken MDMA but have had lot of experience with other similar things, and just a lot of herbal stuff...and have had high serotonin at points and know what its like...and the illusion of why many might think it feels good. Its not a true good feeling, im sure with MDMA the amphetamine portion masks and overcomes some of serotonin's effects, which is why people are still active and awake on MDMA, tho I have seen a friend at a party pass out on the concrete right in the middle of the action after having taken MDMA ..I guess it started wearing out. Seretonin seems to enhance tactile sensation, but it kind of dumbs you down and makes you weak and susceptible to infections and BS. Its not a true feeling of happiness that comes with sharp mind, wakefulness, and most importantly capability and strength of resolve. Its more the...massage me, tickle me, serenade me, but basically I can only sit here and not really do anything...and when serotonin is high, information isn't assimilated properly..its like you'll be watching a video or listening to something and rather than actually listening to the concepts, thinking about it, assimilating it...its more just hearing the sounds and having them massage you...but nothing valuable happens and you'll forget it all or basically have not even heard it.

Most people and society, because of the diet and lifestyle since they were young, and the fact just about everyone is perpetually constipated and has irritating foods in their intestine...they think 'feeling good' is like when you eat a large meal and get lazy and can laze around on the couch...its more a sedation escape feeling. Almost no one actually knows what its like to feel good in a doped, healhy, clean intestine, fully nourished, capable way. Once you've tasted that, anything that provokes serotonin and makes you wanna lay down and receive massage or whatever is offensive, because you realize its just weakening.

The whole empathetic thing, I hate to say it (but don't), is actually a bad thing. Not that empathy is bad...but theres a reason you have the desire to avoid certain people or things and not leak energy towards them...over time such interactions not only drain you but fill your mind and life with non optimal, dragging down, weakening things. I know exactly what its like to have high serotonin...it is very hard to get mad or judgemental at first, but its not in a healthy way. It leaves you open to being taken advantage of, and being propagandized, and leaking your time and energy to parasitical or unworthy people and things...and over time youll never get anywhere, do anything, accomplish anything, or grow in a true meaningful way.

A true feeling of doped happiness, strength, wakefulness, acuity of senses, capability, just allows you to avoid negative influences, and actually promote the good things without being tempted or lulled by BS or propaganda, or lazy negative people, and doesn't allow you to accept sub par sad depressed average toxic things as 'ok'. The 'empathy' is really just a weakness that allows complacency in and for things that are totally not ok at all, and that you should be immune to, and have the intelligence, awareness, and capability to avoid and change

Well written!

 

[kiran]

The whole empathetic thing, I hate to say it (but don't), is actually a bad thing.

I can testify to this personally. MDMA makes it easy for you to develop inappropriate emotional bonds. Think falling in "love" with someone who's completely wrong for you.

 

[miko]

...and over time youll never get anywhere, do anything, accomplish anything, or grow in a true meaningful way.

That's all true! I hate being on SSRI, when I can't be mad of important things, I can't accomplish my goals, my planning ability is impaired. You can live your life on this drugs like many of milions of people in the world - they don't even know that they don't live in full way... They live in artificial "happiness" life...

 

[narouz]

...doped happiness...

It's an unusual turn of phrase, pb.
By "doped," do you mean as in dopamine?