How Do You Really Measure For CO2 In The Body, Really?

yerrag

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Since CO2 is so central in affecting our metabolism, and by extension, to our health, I find the matter of measuring it accurately something difficult to do.

I used to think taking the serum venous bicarbonate would be a good and low-cost way to do it, as based on earlier threads, but more recent threads in the forum have cast doubt on using this as a basis. I believe that drawing arterial blood to measure arterial blood gases for CO2 partial pressure would give a better indication Of CO2 status, but it is both costly and impractical, given that it takes more skill and expense to do it, and it is a rather painful procedure. Another way is to measure tidal CO2 volume using a capnometer, but capnometers are expensive.

Are there other ways of determining CO2 status that would be more practical and more useful to us?

I thought of serum pH, since CO2 in the blood would affect the pH of the blood. But this also includes the effect of serum lactic acid in lowering pH, and it also includes the total CO2 in the blood in the form of dissolved CO2, as well as carbonic acid, as well as bicarbonates (which has a stabilizing buffer effect). With this manner, is there a way to account for these variables to get a good indicaation of CO2 status?

I've actually received my order of a CO2 bath and a carbogen machine, but haven't received the capnometer I ordered from Carbogenetics. It's been sitting there for a good half year already, because I didn't think it makes sense if I don't have a way to track CO2 status - to see the effects on CO2 status and be able to monitor and control how much CO2 I am getting to keep from getting an excess.

Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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For those of us familiar with Buteyko and the control pause, would the control pause be a good proxy for CO2 content in the blood? For those not familiar with the control pause, it is the amount of time you can hold your breathe with no effort. The longer your control pause is, the more carbon dioxide is retained in your blood. The more carbon dioxide is in your blood, the more easily oxygen is released to your tissues. And as more oxygen is released by blood to the issues, the less the urge of the body to breath, and thus the longer the control pause.

If control pause is a proxy for CO2 content in the blood, what would be the longest control pause one can hold that correlates to the limit of how much CO2 dissolved in blood?
 

cyclops

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I could never figure out how to properly measure the "control pause" because it says to hold your breath comfortably until you want to breath. What does that mean? Isn't that just normal breathing? So when I test I want to breathe again rather quickly, as in my normal breathing rate, and I get a terrible control pause rating. I can hold my breath longer and still be ok (not too uncomfortable), but how long is too long? I've already passed to point where I'd normally choose to breath. And you obviously don't want to hold until you gasp for air, so it's somewhere in the middle, how do you choose? I don't get it, maybe my control pause really is that terrible.
 

griesburner

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I could never figure out how to properly measure the "control pause" because it says to hold your breath comfortably until you want to breath. What does that mean? Isn't that just normal breathing?

That was the same thing i thought. I remember reading lots in terms of buteyko but that control pause or the definition of it didnt make sense to me, too :)

And i dont think that this is a good measurement of a healthy metabolism cause i for example breath not very much compared to all my friends around etc and in terms of buteyko i should be the healthiest. But it is complete opposite. So maybe my body is retaining Co2 in the body cause i have a slow metabolism and so i dont have the urge to breathe much. But when my cells would produce more Co2 i would have to breathe more of it out. I am not sure if its clear what i want to say but the point is that in my opinion the whole buteyko breathing theory cant be a marker of good health for all people. Or maybe i am only an exception or healthier than i think? ;) i dont think so
 

tara

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For those of us familiar with Buteyko and the control pause, would the control pause be a good proxy for CO2 content in the blood?
I could never figure out how to properly measure the "control pause" because it says to hold your breath comfortably until you want to breath. What does that mean? Isn't that just normal breathing? So when I test I want to breathe again rather quickly, as in my normal breathing rate, and I get a terrible control pause rating. I can hold my breath longer and still be ok (not too uncomfortable), but how long is too long? I've already passed to point where I'd normally choose to breath. And you obviously don't want to hold until you gasp for air, so it's somewhere in the middle, how do you choose? I don't get it, maybe my control pause really is that terrible.
I find it tricky too. I don't think it's supposed to get uncomfortable at all. One guideline would be that if you take a bigger breath following the pause, then you held too long. Involuntary impulses give clues too - eg if you find yourself swallowing to prevent the next breath, you are probably holding too long, too. The outbreath should be relaxed, and if it takes tension to hold it out, then we've held too long. Any way I look at it mine is short.
 
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I think if you do a CP the same way each time, it is a very accurate relative measure of your personal CO2 levels. It isn't always so easy to compare to others.

Some people make this into a big test, even though you tell them not to. They strain. Other people at the least bit of discomfort will breathe.

My gauge is that you should be able to breathe at the same cadence as you could before doing the CP. That seems to make a CP more objective.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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Thanks for your responses. @md_a that link was very helpful in the way of using a capnometer to gauge CO2 levels. But in the absence of a capnometer, I'm glad to see @ecstatichamster open to the possibility of using the control pause as a personal tool for a relative way of monitoring improvement in CO2 levels. As long as I can be consistent in determining my control pause, as well as doing it right, as @tara and ecstatichamster has described, I hope to get a reliable way of assessing my CO2 levels.

I think though that if different people can use the control pause correctly and consistently, their CO2 levels could still be compared to each other. Perhaps with more data collected, we would be able to correlate control pause to capnometer end-tidal volume, and use these to gauge the state of CO2 content in our blood/body/system.

But I agree that it starts with knowing how to do the control pause correctly. I'm excited and hope that we are on to something. Having a low-cost way to determine CO2 health would be just as cost-effective and useful as the Achilles Tendon Reflext Test to get a measure of whether one is hypothyroid or not.
 

DannyIrons™

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Thanks for your responses. @md_a that link was very helpful in the way of using a capnometer to gauge CO2 levels. But in the absence of a capnometer, I'm glad to see @ecstatichamster open to the possibility of using the control pause as a personal tool for a relative way of monitoring improvement in CO2 levels. As long as I can be consistent in determining my control pause, as well as doing it right, as @tara and ecstatichamster has described, I hope to get a reliable way of assessing my CO2 levels.

I think though that if different people can use the control pause correctly and consistently, their CO2 levels could still be compared to each other. Perhaps with more data collected, we would be able to correlate control pause to capnometer end-tidal volume, and use these to gauge the state of CO2 content in our blood/body/system.

But I agree that it starts with knowing how to do the control pause correctly. I'm excited and hope that we are on to something. Having a low-cost way to determine CO2 health would be just as cost-effective and useful as the Achilles Tendon Reflext Test to get a measure of whether one is hypothyroid or not.

It takes a bit of practice to measure your Control Pause consistently, but remember that inconsistent CP results does not equal inconsistent measurement on your part. I’ve found that there are many factors that can influence your breath-hold time.

Low blood sugar always decreases CP time, and so do some foods, dairy always brings it down slightly for me. Once I had no food in the morning but just a can of coke, and I reached a CP of 60 seconds, which was amazing considering my CP when starting was around 5-6 seconds. I believe the absence of food to influence my breathing, along with the increased sugar from the coke and the carbonation was a good ‘elixir’ to allow a higher CP. I’ve yet to try it again as I’ve been trying to solve other problems via Peating, but I might experiment with it again.

A couple of tips would be to completely relax and get in the ‘zone’ during the measurements, sitting upright in a chair without too much pressure on your abdomen, and just try to not think about anything. Usually a twitch/jerk/spasm movement somewhere from the stomach above usually signals what should be the end of your breath-hold. For me, I always get a slight pressure in my neck/throat area. But as Tara and ecstatichamster says, your breathing volume/rate post breath-hold should be similar to before the breath-hold. If it's heavier then you've pushed it too hard.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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Low blood sugar always decreases CP time,
That's interesting. It makes me think that long CP time is a sign that the body can use the available oxygen in the blood better by allowing more oxygen to be released to the tissues, due to the higher presence of serum CO2. With more oxygen released to the tissues from the amount breathed in a breath, more energy is produced that will sustain a longer breath hold, as long as sugar isn't the limiting factor. In a low blood sugar situation, sugar becomes the limiting factor.

I believe the absence of food to influence my breathing, along with the increased sugar from the coke and the carbonation was a good ‘elixir’ to allow a higher CP

Most certainly agree. With food, digestion is an energy sink and will lessen the breath hold time. Carbonation will allow more oxygen to be released to the tissues, and allow more energy produced per breath-hold.
 

DannyIrons™

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Yes you're spot on, the Bohr effect is really what you're describing in your first sentences. I am going to train to become a Buteyko coach, and will be given the relevant literature to read up on, which I look forward to. Hopefully I can be of more help in the future regarding Buteyko, like others have also done on this forum.

I've just come back from a trip to Spain, and despite not eating that well, or much even, as I was always on the go, my nasal breathing has become less inflamed quite significantly. I have had lots of sunshine, so that would be interesting to look into also.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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Yes you're spot on, the Bohr effect is really what you're describing in your first sentences. I am going to train to become a Buteyko coach, and will be given the relevant literature to read up on, which I look forward to. Hopefully I can be of more help in the future regarding Buteyko, like others have also done on this forum.

I've just come back from a trip to Spain, and despite not eating that well, or much even, as I was always on the go, my nasal breathing has become less inflamed quite significantly. I have had lots of sunshine, so that would be interesting to look into also.

Great to know you're going to train to become a coach in Buteyko. Danny. It's one thing to learn and another to learn to teach something. There's a greater onus to be more certain with the subject matter, and you're going to be an excellent resource on the subject. Looking forward to more of you in the coming months and years to come!
 

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