How Did Ray Peat Arrive At 80-100g Of Protein Per Day?

Tenacity

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I find protein is one of the most confusing things to understand from Peat's work.

Does anyone know how he arrived at the figure of 80-100g per day? I'm assuming that's the amount required to properly nourish the liver to detoxify estrogen, amongst the other uses of protein in the diet.

I ask because, from a pragmatic perspective, drinking lots of milk to meet that requirement seems really odd, yet all the other protein sources seem to have some serious negatives such that it's wise not to overconsume them. I guess the answer to that would be to eat a good mixture. Any ideas? Any citations or studies I can read?
 
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theLaw

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@Tenacity

With regards to milk consumption, when my metabolic rate is high, I can down liquids in very large amounts without any issues. In fact, it's preferred as my rate gets higher.

Having said that, salt has played a huge role in improving my health, and dosing has been key for me (about 1/4tsp per hour all waking hours).

Also, pepsi and even apple juice aren't nearly as satiating as OJ for me.
 

lampofred

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He said a study showed that "adequate" protein is 13.8% of your calories, so with a 2000-2500 calorie diet, that's around 80 grams.
 
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Tenacity

Tenacity

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He said a study showed that "adequate" protein is 13.8% of your calories, so with a 2000-2500 calorie diet, that's around 80 grams.
Thank you. Do you recall where you came across him saying this?
 

charlie

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He said he did not feel as good with less protein.
 
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Tenacity

Tenacity

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He said he did not feel as good with less protein.
Thanks. That was in an email exchange with him, right? It's an interesting answer but I personally don't notice any effect from differing my protein intake. I've never been below 50 grams for a while, so it's interesting to see where the threshold is for the effects to be noticeable.
 

faisman

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I find protein is one of the most confusing things to understand from Peat's work.

Does anyone know how he arrived at the figure of 80-100g per day? I'm assuming that's the amount required to properly nourish the liver to detoxify estrogen, amongst the other uses of protein in the diet.

I ask because, from a pragmatic perspective, drinking lots of milk to meet that requirement seems really odd, yet all the other protein sources seem to have some serious negatives such that it's wise not to overconsume them. I guess the answer to that would be to eat a good mixture. Any ideas? Any citations or studies I can read?

I don’t think its unachievable without being detrimental. If you have 1 or 2 pastured eggs in the morning, maybe add a lowfat cheese. Some form of gelatinous meat cut at lunch (or a muscle meat balanced out with gelatin), or even liver. Then add in 1 or 2 cups of a lower fat milk. You’ll be within range. I’m only highlighting the protein sources here...
 

theLaw

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Thank you. Do you recall where you came across him saying this?

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

Protein
For intense exercise, it's about a gram per pound of body weight.

I've always been very sedentary, but I have usually had close to 150 grams daily. The traditional meat eaters didn't waste anything,ate all the skin, ears, tails, snouts, feet,tendons, lungs, intestines, marrow, blood,brains, gonads and other glands, picked the ligaments off the bones, so they had a much better balance of amino acids. (Small town restaurants in Mexico, China, etc., still serve those.) Muscle meats are essentially a refined food.

That's more than enough, and with low thyroid function the excess of tryptophan, methionine, and cystein can lower your thyroid even more. Until your metabolic rate is higher, 80 to 100 grams would be better. Replacing it with sugar, or very well cooked starch, would support thyroid function.

It's better to take your protein during the day, sugar and fat in the evening. The powdered protein lacks most of the nutrients, so you probably need some fruit, eggs, and liver, for the other nutrients, including potassium and magnesium.

Food proteins stimulate insulin secretion, and to prevent hypoglycemia cortisol is increased. The food proteins (along with tissue proteins) can be used for energy under the influence of cortisol. Meats, other than beef, lamb, venison, and bison, usually contain enough polyunsaturated fat to affect estrogen, testosterone, and energy production. Stress, or increased cortisol, increases the circulating cysteine and tryptophan from muscle (meats), and these together with cortisol tend to increase aromatase. The high ratio of phosphate to calcium in meat activates a variety of stress processes; a high intake of calcium supports energy metabolism. Sugars tend to lower circulating free fatty acids, amino acids, and cortisol, while activating the thyroid hormone.

I think it just takes a few hours, or a day, to normalize the tryptophan. Vitamin B6 helps to guide the metabolism of tryptophan away from excessive serotonin.

[Does a protein deficiency lower liver detoxification due to increased muscle breakdown which inhibits thyroid via amino acids which lowers metabolic efficiency of liver?] Yes, I think that's at least part of how it works.

[Why do you recommend to have carbohydrates with a protein meal?] It mitigates the damage produced by the stress response to hypoglycemia.
 
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Tenacity

Tenacity

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theLAW said:
[Does a protein deficiency lower liver detoxification due to increased muscle breakdown which inhibits thyroid via amino acids which lowers metabolic efficiency of liver?] Yes, I think that's at least part of how it works.

This part caught my eye. That explains why a protein deficiency is so damaging, but my question is what evidence supports the required quantity of 80-100g? Are there studies showing poor efficiency of the liver under 80g?
 

theLaw

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This part caught my eye. That explains why a protein deficiency is so damaging, but my question is what evidence supports the required quantity of 80-100g? Are there studies showing poor efficiency of the liver under 80g?

If you search the forum there are threads on protein utilization as well as optimal dose for muscle building. If not, you can email Ray Peat directly with your question.
 

Amazoniac

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Regarding the proportion of collagen, one of the reasons must be to get close to the constitution of an animal:

Gelatin, stress, longevity
Gelatin (the cooked form of collagen) makes up about 50% of the protein in an animal, but a much smaller percentage in the more active tissues, such as brain, muscle, and liver. 35% of the amino acids in gelatin are glycine, 11% alanine, and 21% proline and hydroxyproline.

Collagen - Wikipedia
it is the most abundant protein in mammals,[1] making up from 25% to 35% of the whole-body protein content

He's considering something that others didn't, but I don't know what it is.
 

yoshiesque

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I honestly think the protein intake varies with some degree. For me personally i need around 150g
 

yoshiesque

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@Tenacity

With regards to milk consumption, when my metabolic rate is high, I can down liquids in very large amounts without any issues. In fact, it's preferred as my rate gets higher.

Having said that, salt has played a huge role in improving my health, and dosing has been key for me (about 1/4tsp per hour all waking hours).

Also, pepsi and even apple juice aren't nearly as satiating as OJ for me.

Can you please tell me more about this? how do you consume the salt? salt has seemed to help my body temps but im not sure if i should be increasing my intake. I been drinking it with small amount of hot water and gelatin but i think it sometimes irritates my throat/stomach even if its dissolved well
 

theLaw

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Can you please tell me more about this? how do you consume the salt? salt has seemed to help my body temps but im not sure if i should be increasing my intake. I been drinking it with small amount of hot water and gelatin but i think it sometimes irritates my throat/stomach even if its dissolved well

I just take it dry, and down it with OJ, but no more than a 1/4tsp at a time, or I get stomach upset. My goal is to get it swallowed as fast as possible while using the OJ to cover the taste.

Another option is to make salt pills using gelatin caps, but it's time consuming.
 
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Lord Cola

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How do you get 150 grams of protein a day when there isn't good quality cheese or gelatin? While being reasonable, that is, and not drinking nearly 5 quarts of milk a day.
 

InChristAlone

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What are the symptoms of low protein?
 

Sefton10

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I've heard Ray on a few podcasts mention a military study that determined the minimum amount of protein that soldiers required to be healthy.
 

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