How Can We Help Jordan Peterson, I Might Have A Direct Line

[gately]

I'd tell him that serotonin ,in ALL animals is the hormone of hibernation, why would it be different in humans ?

Also worth a mention that many SSRI's work through raising allopregnenolone and are partial serotonin antagonists .

Maybe he could try something like cyproheptadine . Afaik it's otc in the Us . So it wouldnt take much commitment or do you guys think that's too far into peatland for the start?

I think after all the nightmares he’s had with drugs, recommending another one is the last thing I’d suggest to the poor guy. Plenty of people even here in Peat Land don’t react well to Cyproheptadine.

 

[Mauritio]

I think after all the nightmares he’s had with drugs, recommending another one is the last thing I’d suggest to the poor guy. Plenty of people even here in Peat Land don’t react well to Cyproheptadine.

Hmm true . But then what ? Make him take some aspirin?

 

[gately]

Hmm true . But then what ? Make him take some aspirin?

I’ve already suggested what I think he should do. I think he should get a hair mineral analysis test and see what went wrong. I suspect he’s got zero molybdenum in his system, and that’s what happened.

 

[S-VV]

Do not cold turkey of SSRIs if you don't want akathisia or tardive dyskinesia. I wouldnt go off SSRIs until the benzo withdrawal would be completely over.

Always one step at a time.

 

[CoconutEffect]

Hmm true . But then what ? Make him take some aspirin?

Aspirin, progesterone.

it’s not so much substances, it’s sort of explanations, like @Tarmander that I think would have best effect.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Who can eloquently (and humbly!) explain the benefits he gets from the carnivore diet are likely mostly LPS / endotoxin related. He’ll read it. He’s an open mind.

And also Serotonin, w/o the arrogance please.

As far as this goes, maybe show him the Starch Free Diet thread- My Starch Free And Zero Fiber Experiment

I explained this concept to someone like this, on the similarities between Carnivore and Fruitarian-

"I think there is contradictory info out there largely because sometimes, seemly opposite approaches can do some very similar things. For example, Carnivore and Fruitarian seem about as opposite as can be, but both eliminate pretty much all processed foods, cut down on PUFA, and also dangerous additives like raw iron, carrageenan, and such. Both pretty much eliminate starches, as well. All starches seem to be hard to digest, some more than others, with rice being the "most okay" of them all. They all feed gut bacteria, and that's going to create a burden of anti-metabolic substances, including serotonin, endotoxin, lactic acid, and such.

Some of the same things happen with Paleo, Low Carb, Vegan, Vegetarian, IF, Gluten Free, and other diets depending on how someone follows it. Even something like Weight Watchers or simple calorie counting can do similar things. Any diet will work to the extent that it reduces toxic elements and problematic foods, and increases good foods and/or vitamins and minerals, so long as you don't run a deficiency of anything. Straightforward, but might not be as simple as saying, say, fat is good or bad. You can break fats down into Saturated, Mono Unsaturated (including both Trans and Cis), and Poly Unsaturated. You can break all those down further into carbon chain lengths. So, what started as a single thing can spring into 30-40 things pretty quickly. How is Stearic Acid different from Capric Acid, and how are both different from Oleic Acid? And how they are more similar to Oleic than Arachidonic Acid?"

So, since those seemingly "opposite" approaches can both help to achieve a goal, you can combine them, and likely get better results. You won't be running a glucose deficiency like you eventually will on Carnivore, as you are getting carbs from the diet, and so you don't have to waste protein in gluconeogensis. And you won't be running on a protein shortage like you eventually will with Fruitarian, as you are getting plenty of protein from meat, so you don't have to get protein from muscle and vital organs. And also the added bonuses of Saturated Fat and Cholesterol, which both seem to be important building blocks for the body.

 

[mangoes]

I would send him to Ray Peats website and one of his articles on serotonin.

Probably serotonin, depression, aggression if I had to pick one.

Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

+1

send him directly to Peat’s website

 

[Maljam]

Aspirin, progesterone.

it’s not so much substances, it’s sort of explanations, like @Tarmander that I think would have best effect.

Do you not think articles from Peat would be more convincing that just some posts on a forum? People have sent me posts on a forum before and I immediately just think it's going to be bs.

 

[YourUniverse]

Tell him about Ray...

 

[CoconutEffect]

Tell him about Ray...

Except that it takes actually living & peating before the axioms become self evident, so it’s tricky...

 

[Maljam]

Except that it takes actually living & peating before the axioms become self evident, so it’s tricky...

All the articles have references though, compared to forum posts that could just entirely be made up.

 

[gately]

Do any of you seriously think exposing Peterson to Ray’s ideas is going to be significantly helpful? I mean OP’s first suggestion is microdosing hallucinogens...I mean honestly...no offense to you OP, I know you mean well, but I am having a hard time imagining a more risky suggestion, short of taking full strength hallucinogens.

Let’s be real here: the guy has severe food intolerances since beginning carnivore. He can’t even have a teaspoon of ACV without suffering from a month of total insomnia. Combine the severe intolerances, with multiple years on a steak-only diet, with the benzo addiction, with the damage from the induced coma, and what? You think he’s going to feel ok having a glass of milk or orange juice with his steak? You really think he hasn’t already tried expanding his diet?

The goal for the guy is to get well, we all want that for him, and I’m sure most of us here in Peat Land think it’s doubtful that’s going to happen anytime soon if he continues to only eat muscle meat. So then the long term goal has to be: help him figure out HOW he can start handling more foods.

I’ve proposed a hair mineral analysis test to determine if he has a molybdenum deficiency (amongst other obvious deficiencies). Molybdenum deficiency is indicated when there is sulfite intolerance issues, and I suspect any form of phenol intolerance, etc. The family have mentioned they suspect his worst reactions are to sulfites. This, again, is a hallmark characteristic of molybdenum deficiency. Further, there’s barely any molybdenum in muscle meat. (Why doesn’t every carnivore experience the same deficiency? Who knows. Perhaps he is reacting to environmental things that drives his molybdenum lower. Perhaps he started the diet in a deficient state.)

Also, I just got say this, we don’t know why carnivore initially helped him. We don’t exactly know why it helps anyone, at least at first. You can theorize it’s due to a reduction in endotoxin but we really don’t know. Hell, probably a quarter of the people here now think it’s related to low-vitamin A thanks to Grant Granuexwhatever.

Here is my suspicion: before all this, he was probably low in molybdenum (and perhaps other minerals), constantly reacting in a low-grade way to many things in his diet. He tried steak-only for a month and bam: all his symptoms got better because he was not ingesting anything that he previously reacted to. But it drove his already low molybdenum to essentially zero. He then tries a food that previously would have been imperceptibly harmful and wham: it hits him like a sack of bricks. And he hasn’t been able to climb out of the hole of deficiency ever since.

Could he maybe get better by eating a bunch of beef kidney and liver? Maybe. But my guess is they’ve already tried that and he most likely reacted poorly to them as well. (A lot of long term carnivores report reacting poorly to organ meats. And unfortunately his daughter seems to think they are unnecessary on her version of the diet. Which, by all accounts, seems to be true for many long-term carnivores. But the key here is that those same long-term carnivores who eschew all organs eventually become reactive to organs. They become slaves to the almighty ribeye.)

Maybe if he keeps doing what he’s doing he’ll recover eventually. As far as I’m aware, he’s been slowing getting better ever since the induced coma in Russia? Maybe just eating meat will ever-so-slowly climb him out of the hole, but maybe not, since it seems like just eating meat is what put him in the hole to begin with. But there’s literally zero harm in doing a hair mineral analysis test and seeing if it contains the magic key. Whereas—considering the extreme suffering he experienced from even something as benign as a teaspoon of ACV—microdosing, OJ, milk, aspirin, cypro, a raw carrot, heck probably even pure sugar...all contain significant risk.

I’m not saying my idea is the only idea. I’m saying there’s not a whole lot beyond theory within the Peat Paradigm that’s intrinsically going to be very helpful here, imo. If you want to help the guy, and you sincerely think there’s a chance he sees this thread: you’re going to have to think outside the Peat bubble.

 

[Soren]

Do any of you seriously think exposing Peterson to Ray’s ideas is going to be significantly helpful? I mean OP’s first suggestion is microdosing hallucinogens...I mean honestly...no offense to you OP, I know you mean well, but I am having a hard time imagining a more risky suggestion, short of taking full strength hallucinogens.

Let’s be real here: the guy has severe food intolerances since beginning carnivore. He can’t even have a teaspoon of ACV without suffering from a month of total insomnia. Combine the severe intolerances, with multiple years on a steak-only diet, with the benzo addiction, with the damage from the induced coma, and what? You think he’s going to feel ok having a glass of milk or orange juice with his steak? You really think he hasn’t already tried expanding his diet?

The goal for the guy is to get well, we all want that for him, and I’m sure most of us here in Peat Land think it’s doubtful that’s going to happen anytime soon if he continues to only eat muscle meat. So then the long term goal has to be: help him figure out HOW he can start handling more foods.

I’ve proposed a hair mineral analysis test to determine if he has a molybdenum deficiency (amongst other obvious deficiencies). Molybdenum deficiency is indicated when there is sulfite intolerance issues, and I suspect any form of phenol intolerance, etc. The family have mentioned they suspect his worst reactions are to sulfites. This, again, is a hallmark characteristic of molybdenum deficiency. Further, there’s barely any molybdenum in muscle meat. (Why doesn’t every carnivore experience the same deficiency? Who knows. Perhaps he is reacting to environmental things that drives his molybdenum lower. Perhaps he started the diet in a deficient state.)

Also, I just got say this, we don’t know why carnivore initially helped him. We don’t exactly know why it helps anyone, at least at first. You can theorize it’s due to a reduction in endotoxin but we really don’t know. Hell, probably a quarter of the people here now think it’s related to low-vitamin A thanks to Grant Granuexwhatever.

Here is my suspicion: before all this, he was probably low in molybdenum (and perhaps other minerals), constantly reacting in a low-grade way to many things in his diet. He tried steak-only for a month and bam: all his symptoms got better because he was not ingesting anything that he previously reacted to. But it drove his already low molybdenum to essentially zero. He then tries a food that previously would have been imperceptibly harmful and wham: it hits him like a sack of bricks. And he hasn’t been able to climb out of the hole of deficiency ever since.

Could he maybe get better by eating a bunch of beef kidney and liver? Maybe. But my guess is they’ve already tried that and he most likely reacted poorly to them as well. (A lot of long term carnivores report reacting poorly to organ meats. And unfortunately his daughter seems to think they are unnecessary on her version of the diet. Which, by all accounts, seems to be true for many long-term carnivores. But the key here is that those same long-term carnivores who eschew all organs eventually become reactive to organs. They become slaves to the almighty ribeye.)

Maybe if he keeps doing what he’s doing he’ll recover eventually. As far as I’m aware, he’s been slowing getting better ever since the induced coma in Russia? Maybe just eating meat will ever-so-slowly climb him out of the hole, but maybe not, since it seems like just eating meat is what put him in the hole to begin with. But there’s literally zero harm in doing a hair mineral analysis test and seeing if it contains the magic key. Whereas—considering the extreme suffering he experienced from even something as benign as a teaspoon of ACV—microdosing, OJ, milk, aspirin, cypro, a raw carrot, heck probably even pure sugar...all contain significant risk.

I’m not saying my idea is the only idea. I’m saying there’s not a whole lot beyond theory within the Peat Paradigm that’s intrinsically going to be very helpful here, imo. If you want to help the guy, and you sincerely think there’s a chance he sees this thread: you’re going to have to think outside the Peat bubble.

Total agreement with this assessment and the recommendation for a hair mineral test to determine if he has low molybdenum before throwing in foods that he has not consumed for years which could result in a severe reaction.

I do agree that getting serotonin and cortisol lower is important but he should be very careful given his sensitivities and delicate state.

Any supplementation he does take should be done in the absolute smallest initial doses possible and preferably substances that do not have a long half life in the body.

Cyproheptadine can down regulate dopamine slightly which is not something you'd want in his state. Although a small dose could be beneficial. Perhaps metergoline would be a better option as it has some pro-dopamine effects along with the anti serotonin.

Perhaps medical grade charcoal to help lower endotoxin. I would assume that he would not have a bad reaction to this because it is inert but I honestly do not know I'd recommend charcoal House as a good brand.

Glycine has been shown to be helpful with Gaba issues. Haidut posts about it here GABA And Glycine Have The Same Effects In The CNS

Also gelatin/collagen which is very high in glycine, in general has been shown to be very beneficial for recovery from physical stress and lowers cortisol. Since this is essentially a muscle meat perhaps he will be able to tolerate without side effects. Glycine Powerfully Lowers Cortisol

Again I second what @gately said, all this should be done very gradually and cautiously with the first step being that hair mineral analysis. Going full guns blazing with all these different treatments to someone who is already in a very delicate state before this all happened would be very unwise.

 

[Tarmander]

Hell, probably a quarter of the people here now think it’s related to low-vitamin A thanks to Grant Granuexwhatever

hahaha, that is great

This was a good assessment though. Really I think this thread was just about opening his mind a little bit, which is why I mention serotonin above and where he is probably the most mistaken.

Once you get into hair tests, individual minerals, endotoxin, etc, you get into so much conjecture and interpretation that JP will take one look at it and say "yeah maybe eh."

JP is straight up sick, like really sick. And he is old. And he has taken SSRIs forever. Guy is absolutely rail thin too. It is not looking good if he wants to be around another 20 years.

 

[CoconutEffect]

Do any of you seriously think exposing Peterson to Ray’s ideas is going to be significantly helpful? I mean OP’s first suggestion is microdosing hallucinogens...I mean honestly...no offense to you OP, I know you mean well, but I am having a hard time imagining a more risky suggestion, short of taking full strength hallucinogens.

Let’s be real here: the guy has severe food intolerances since beginning carnivore. He can’t even have a teaspoon of ACV without suffering from a month of total insomnia. Combine the severe intolerances, with multiple years on a steak-only diet, with the benzo addiction, with the damage from the induced coma, and what? You think he’s going to feel ok having a glass of milk or orange juice with his steak? You really think he hasn’t already tried expanding his diet?

The goal for the guy is to get well, we all want that for him, and I’m sure most of us here in Peat Land think it’s doubtful that’s going to happen anytime soon if he continues to only eat muscle meat. So then the long term goal has to be: help him figure out HOW he can start handling more foods.

I’ve proposed a hair mineral analysis test to determine if he has a molybdenum deficiency (amongst other obvious deficiencies). Molybdenum deficiency is indicated when there is sulfite intolerance issues, and I suspect any form of phenol intolerance, etc. The family have mentioned they suspect his worst reactions are to sulfites. This, again, is a hallmark characteristic of molybdenum deficiency. Further, there’s barely any molybdenum in muscle meat. (Why doesn’t every carnivore experience the same deficiency? Who knows. Perhaps he is reacting to environmental things that drives his molybdenum lower. Perhaps he started the diet in a deficient state.)

Also, I just got say this, we don’t know why carnivore initially helped him. We don’t exactly know why it helps anyone, at least at first. You can theorize it’s due to a reduction in endotoxin but we really don’t know. Hell, probably a quarter of the people here now think it’s related to low-vitamin A thanks to Grant Granuexwhatever.

Here is my suspicion: before all this, he was probably low in molybdenum (and perhaps other minerals), constantly reacting in a low-grade way to many things in his diet. He tried steak-only for a month and bam: all his symptoms got better because he was not ingesting anything that he previously reacted to. But it drove his already low molybdenum to essentially zero. He then tries a food that previously would have been imperceptibly harmful and wham: it hits him like a sack of bricks. And he hasn’t been able to climb out of the hole of deficiency ever since.

Could he maybe get better by eating a bunch of beef kidney and liver? Maybe. But my guess is they’ve already tried that and he most likely reacted poorly to them as well. (A lot of long term carnivores report reacting poorly to organ meats. And unfortunately his daughter seems to think they are unnecessary on her version of the diet. Which, by all accounts, seems to be true for many long-term carnivores. But the key here is that those same long-term carnivores who eschew all organs eventually become reactive to organs. They become slaves to the almighty ribeye.)

Maybe if he keeps doing what he’s doing he’ll recover eventually. As far as I’m aware, he’s been slowing getting better ever since the induced coma in Russia? Maybe just eating meat will ever-so-slowly climb him out of the hole, but maybe not, since it seems like just eating meat is what put him in the hole to begin with. But there’s literally zero harm in doing a hair mineral analysis test and seeing if it contains the magic key. Whereas—considering the extreme suffering he experienced from even something as benign as a teaspoon of ACV—microdosing, OJ, milk, aspirin, cypro, a raw carrot, heck probably even pure sugar...all contain significant risk.

I’m not saying my idea is the only idea. I’m saying there’s not a whole lot beyond theory within the Peat Paradigm that’s intrinsically going to be very helpful here, imo. If you want to help the guy, and you sincerely think there’s a chance he sees this thread: you’re going to have to think outside the Peat bubble.

amanita muscaria (gaba agonist) is helping people get off benzos, it could also repair the gabaergic systems, and it’s an anxiolytic deliriant, and JPB might enjoy a psychedelic experience, they do help with depression.

I’m thinking immediate relief for the Dr, he may be acutely suffering

2mg of lsd cured my bipolar type 2. Eurythmic since June. There are case studies of the same. Not a recommendation.

 

[CoconutEffect]

Once you get into hair tests, individual minerals, endotoxin, etc, you get into so much conjecture and interpretation that JP will take one look at it and say "yeah maybe eh."

this is exactly my point, thank you @Tarmander

 

[gately]

I know all our hearts are in the right place. But @dilantinoid do you seriously think there's more conjecture on the validity of the molybdenum level on hair mineral analysis tests than there is surrounding the therapeutic usage of hallucinogens? Let's be real here: hair mineral analysis has been used by doctors and alternative practitioners to diagnose or confirm deficiencies for like half a century. And microdosing shrooms was popularized as a potential treatment for anxiety, like, yesterday. And obviously, one carries infinitely more risks (one being a physical substance, the other a hair test) especially for someone in such a hypersensitive state as JP. We don't even know if the guy can handle a single well-cooked white button mushroom, let alone the isolated psychedelic compound from one of the world's most powerful hallucinogens.

I think @Tarmander has a good understanding of the severity of the situation.

I like @Soren 's ideas as next steps after a hair analysis, btw. Though I doubt endotoxin is at the heart of the issue here, I think charcoal is definitely worthwhile and relatively safe. I also think trialing a natural source of glycine / collagen, but low in histamine, would be a good, albeit somewhat risky experiment. (Hell, even I get insomnia from some glycine sources. So extreme caution here. And perhaps Soren is right in potentially suggesting the isolated amino.)

The reality of the situation is that JP is at a point where even one TINY mis-step in any direction, one TINY bad reaction to a compound we all assumed was generally recognized as safe by the Peat community, could be catastrophic and fatal. This is why I think testing for things, especially outside the usual box of conventional medicine, is warranted as a first step. Not just trying something from an anecdote here on the forum, or some pubmed study. JP is not a candidate for usual RayPeatForum level of self- experimentation, especially without some form of confirming diagnosis. It would be foolish and far too risky, imo.

 

[YourUniverse]

Except that it takes actually living & peating before the axioms become self evident, so it’s tricky...

You can send an article on serotonin. He seems like a decently open minded academic, it could open up a rabbit hole. You can tell him about Ray

 

[snacks]

I know all our hearts are in the right place. But @dilantinoid do you seriously think there's more conjecture on the validity of the molybdenum level on hair mineral analysis tests than there is surrounding the therapeutic usage of hallucinogens? Let's be real here: hair mineral analysis has been used by doctors and alternative practitioners to diagnose or confirm deficiencies for like half a century. And microdosing shrooms was popularized as a potential treatment for anxiety, like, yesterday. And obviously, one carries infinitely more risks (one being a physical substance, the other a hair test) especially for someone in such a hypersensitive state as JP. We don't even know if the guy can handle a single well-cooked white button mushroom, let alone the isolated psychedelic compound from one of the world's most powerful hallucinogens.

I think @Tarmander has a good understanding of the severity of the situation.

I like @Soren 's ideas as next steps after a hair analysis, btw. Though I doubt endotoxin is at the heart of the issue here, I think charcoal is definitely worthwhile and relatively safe. I also think trialing a natural source of glycine / collagen, but low in histamine, would be a good, albeit somewhat risky experiment. (Hell, even I get insomnia from some glycine sources. So extreme caution here. And perhaps Soren is right in potentially suggesting the isolated amino.)

The reality of the situation is that JP is at a point where even one TINY mis-step in any direction, one TINY bad reaction to a compound we all assumed was generally recognized as safe by the Peat community, could be catastrophic and fatal. This is why I think testing for things, especially outside the usual box of conventional medicine, is warranted as a first step. Not just trying something from an anecdote here on the forum, or some pubmed study. JP is not a candidate for usual RayPeatForum level of self- experimentation, especially without some form of confirming diagnosis. It would be foolish and far too risky, imo.

Few things are as obnoxious as people who have reason to have to have heard of MK ultra advocating taking hallucinogens under any circumstances but especially in any case where the problem isn't lack of "seeing the face of GOD bro" but a publicized case of lack of a good diet and spiraling drug addiction. Also-- sorry-for being impolite about those who are absent from the discussion-- since this forum is big on stressors it's worth considering that the direction in which his daughter has gone would be hard on any father. Mechanistic explanations are useful especially since he's almost certainly suffering from a lot of deficienciesbut you can't ignore the personal side of the equation, especially since he may have perceived it as a kind of failure of his philosophy for which he as the person who popularizes/tries to help people with it may be culpable. Social stressors aren't discussed enough on this forum IMHO but it's understandable since they're nebulous and hard to pin down. WRT endotoxin, it's worth considering that even if there is an endotoxin problem (unlikely, afaik) that the human body is generally equipped to deal with this and the solution would be to focus on getting Peterson's body back online rather than chasing the cat's tail and attacking symptoms. Endotoxin is of course an issue but the cases of endotoxin posioning are exceptional and you see it pop up in this forum BECAUSE it's somewhat unusual to see acute endotoxicity and people have to look far and wide to figure out if this is their issue.

RE: insomnia from glycine-- I had this at some point but bulksupplements is good and so is FINE Japan but respecting collagen I'd be concerned about asking anyone in his condition to supplement with anything from which adulterants and allergens can't be entirely ruled out. I'm mystified as to what issues one could take with hair testing but maybe a combination of hair/nail and blood testing would be better lol?

Re: carnivore, I'm not sure why it helps but it does. The only significant alteration I've made since my carnivore days has been adding supplemental glycine and a larger amount of fruit and sugar. This was from consideration of the fact that fresh meat has glycogen and then also from taking a closer look at ancestral carnivore diets and realizing that honey and fruit formed a much larger component of diet than the frankly misleading accounts of paleotards and people like sv3rige would lead you to believe. This fixed pretty much every issue I had with the diet and was able to come off of "adaptogens" which I suspect may have done as much harm as good anyways. I don't think that Vitamin A depletion is a valid explanation especially since people love to harp on how long it takes and really can't account for Peterson's testimony of immediate improvement provided he was being truthful. I reacted poorly to organ meat for a while but I would pin refeeding syndrome as the culprit

 

[TopGun1911]

Also, I just got say this, we don’t know why carnivore initially helped him. We don’t exactly know why it helps anyone, at least at first. You can theorize it’s due to a reduction in endotoxin but we really don’t know. Hell, probably a quarter of the people here now think it’s related to low-vitamin A thanks to Grant Granuexwhatever.
.

We do know and it's much simpler than that. It's because of stress hormones making them more alert and energetic, at least temporarily. Not only that, but also the fact that switching to mainly lipolysis will ameliorate symptoms of glucose intolerance, at first.