How Can People Be Healthy Even When They Don't Eat A Healthy Diet?

barefooter

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Unfortunately, I think a lot of it has to do with never becoming unhealthy in the first place (nigh impossible). I think when you're healthy, hormones are good, digestion is rocking, there is a lot of room for error in the diet. The digestion is fierce and can breakdown nasty foods, use the good stuff, and detoxify/excrete the bad stuff. I think if you have at least an okay diet, move a bit, and have a lot of other good stuff going like friends, family, stimulating work/life, etc. you can remain in this state for a long time.

But, if you become unhealthy, then it seems like it's an uphill battle all the time. You have to eat perfect, because your digestion is weak. You need to avoid stress, because you can't tolerate it. You have to force yourself to move because you don't feel like it. Same for socialization, etc.

I think people who do eat a poor diet and stay healthy into old age, likely have many other healthy factors in their lives that we may not be aware of. I know just number of friends has a high correlation with longevity, and people tend to have very few friends these days. Maybe they really feel like they belong to a community, do good/meaningful work in the world, or have lots of love in their lives. Maybe all of the above.

I also think the thought patterns that you develop in early childhood play a big role. In my case, it seems my mind always assumes the world is an unsafe place, and my thought patterns cause a lot of stress hormones for things that are only in my head. I think my thoughts are probably what wrecked my health through chronic stress, but maybe it was bad health/digestion that started the bad thoughts, we can never know.
 

Amazoniac

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barefooter said:
Unfortunately, I think a lot of it has to do with never becoming unhealthy in the first place (nigh impossible). I think when you're healthy, hormones are good, digestion is rocking, there is a lot of room for error in the diet. The digestion is fierce and can breakdown nasty foods, use the good stuff, and detoxify/excrete the bad stuff. I think if you have at least an okay diet, move a bit, and have a lot of other good stuff going like friends, family, stimulating work/life, etc. you can remain in this state for a long time.

But, if you become unhealthy, then it seems like it's an uphill battle all the time. You have to eat perfect, because your digestion is weak. You need to avoid stress, because you can't tolerate it. You have to force yourself to move because you don't feel like it. Same for socialization, etc.

I think people who do eat a poor diet and stay healthy into old age, likely have many other healthy factors in their lives that we may not be aware of. I know just number of friends has a high correlation with longevity, and people tend to have very few friends these days. Maybe they really feel like they belong to a community, do good/meaningful work in the world, or have lots of love in their lives. Maybe all of the above.

I also think the thought patterns that you develop in early childhood play a big role. In my case, it seems my mind always assumes the world is an unsafe place, and my thought patterns cause a lot of stress hormones for things that are only in my head. I think my thoughts are probably what wrecked my health through chronic stress, but maybe it was bad health/digestion that started the bad thoughts, we can never know.

I've been reading a lot of pondered posts in this forum lately, yours is an example..
Have you read The drama of the gifted child by Alice Miller? It's about overly sensitive children that try to match everyone's expectations - especially parental - and later develop a lot of problems that stem from there. There's a member in here called You that might benefit from this reading also. By the way, very short and direct book.

Edit: if you Google it, you can find a PDF version of it, not sure about the edition though. Don't mind her hyperbolic statements, like linking Hitler, Napoleon, etc behaviours to that subject; apart from that her work is great. All her other books, if I recall correctly, surround the same issue..
 

Amazoniac

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Here's an excerpt:

In an atmosphere of respect and tolerance for his feelings, the child, in the phase of separation, will be able to give up symbiosis with the mother and accomplish the steps toward individuation and autonomy.
If they are to furnish these prerequisites for a healthy narcissism, the parents themselves ought to have grown up in such an atmosphere.
Parents who did not experience this climate as children are themselves narcissistically deprived; throughout their lives they are looking for what their own parents could not give them at the correct time—the presence of a person who is completely aware of them and takes them seriously, who admires and follows them.
This search, of course, can never succeed fully since it relates to a situation that belongs irrevocably to the past, namely to the time when the self was first being formed. Nevertheless, a person with this unsatisfied and unconscious (because repressed) need is compelled to attempt its gratification through substitute means.
The most appropriate objects for gratification are a parent's own children. A newborn baby is completely dependent on his parents, and since their caring is essential for his existence, he does all he can to avoid losing them. From the very first day onward, he will muster all his resources to this end, like a small plant that turns toward the sun in order to survive. (Miller, 1971)

Edit: and it gets creepier...
The patient satisfies his analyst's narcissistic wish for approval, echo, understanding, and for being taken seriously when he presents material that fits his analyst's knowledge, concepts, and skills, and therefore also his expectations. In this way the analyst exercises the same sort of unconscious manipulation as that to which he was exposed as a child.
 

mt_dreams

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Amazoniac said:
Edit: if you Google it, you can find a PDF version of it, not sure about the edition though. Don't mind her hyperbolic statements, like linking Hitler, Napoleon, etc behaviours to that subject; apart from that her work is great. All her other books, if I recall correctly, surround the same issue..

What's the big deal if she likes hitler & napoleon? It's like someone saying they like Alexander, Julius Cesar, etc. I don't think there's ever been a general that has lead the takeover of a foreign land, without there being bloodshed. I wonder if someone says they like Truman, if that would be perceived as crazy as liking any of the above mentioned names? ... Seeing as he dropped 2 atomic bombs 3 months after the end of ww2.
 

Amazoniac

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mt_dreams said:
Amazoniac said:
Edit: if you Google it, you can find a PDF version of it, not sure about the edition though. Don't mind her hyperbolic statements, like linking Hitler, Napoleon, etc behaviours to that subject; apart from that her work is great. All her other books, if I recall correctly, surround the same issue..

What's the big deal if she likes hitler & napoleon? It's like someone saying they like Alexander, Julius Cesar, etc. I don't think there's ever been a general that has lead the takeover of a foreign land, without there being bloodshed. I wonder if someone says they like Truman, if that would be perceived as crazy as liking any of the above mentioned names? ... Seeing as he dropped 2 atomic bombs 3 months after the end of ww2.

Haha! Read again my post..
 

mt_dreams

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Ahh yes, reading things clearly is actually important. My mind was already in long weekend mode, and I just gave it to someone who uses the 'hitler' phrase for way too many things. I guess my juice was still flowing.

and noo, i def didn't want the convo to go the route of nazism ... though I'm always up for talking about american 'nazism', but don't worry, I wont hijack a thread to do so.
 

pboy

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isn't it settled? if you don't eat like peat and have hair like him, theres no way to be healthy. Suggesting anything otherwise is a fascist act of authoritarianism which places you almost if not in the same realm as hitler and napolean
 

tara

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I'm with barefooter on this.
 

pboy

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I don't mean to deviate off topic either, but I agree with mt dreams...what Truman did and that whole group was one of the worst things, ever done in the history of the world, and its glossed over pretty much everywhere except maybe in japan

to be on topic, its not that 'when you get unhealthy then to recover you have to really avoid stress and do all the right things cause you cant handle it anymore' ...it was the stress in the first place that ruined health. Theres no way to have great health under stress, just isn't...well, digestion. Ive been eating the same thing ...ive done expiriments, and im good mentally and spiritually. Same diet, same way of life, same everything...different living situations, my whole GI patterning and way I felt in general totally changed, because of stress hormones, its really a huge problem. Its like what I said in that other topic about the sacrum and the lower torso, the womb area. It has to do with dreams also...you can use that as a gauge. If youre not in a place that's really comfortable with no impending threat of any kind, and this could even be like...someone you don't like that you lvie with, that alters how you can freely act. If anyone or anything is obstructing how you'd act alone, via their or its presence, its hurting your intestines, its a fight or flight stress. Digestion is the root of everything, so it pans out from there. You can take anyone in any situation in life...give them a home just out of a city, with nothing around it for like ...give em a few acres of space, give them some money, and watch...anyone would heal from nearly anything, granted they weren't like a huge POS who was just evil and like...had to do ruthless things. If youre a normal good spirited good intentions person, if you have space and freedom, you'll heal from anything, and make good choices, and learn very fast, and start feeling spiritual, and loving. Any little thing that throws that off...imagine being in that situation for a month, you had your routiens, you felt peaceful, then someone you didn't really like that much suddenly came to live with you and carried all their ***t with them...it would ruin peace, relaxation, insight, everything. Why some people have better digestion than others is because they live or operate in more peaceful places, and /or have a home base to go back to that is peaceful, and generally have some money or someone to depend on so that's not occupying everything. Humans that wake up realize how extraordinarily sensitive our bodies are, and that...your environment around you is equally as important as your internal environment, its a 50 50 thing...well maybe 60 40
 

Blossom

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Sounds like a really good book Amazoniac.
 

TiredofLies

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Reading first page, sounds like you all think this is common knowledge, like we unhealthy people can just become healthy with will power.

If I knew what I needed to do to be healthy, I'd be on it right now. But the way I see it, every diet is different It requires a lifetime of studying to know what's truly healthy. I'm struggling right now, I need straight answers, check out my thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6702
 

barefooter

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Amazoniac said:
I've been reading a lot of pondered posts in this forum lately, yours is an example..
Have you read The drama of the gifted child by Alice Miller? It's about overly sensitive children that try to match everyone's expectations - especially parental - and later develop a lot of problems that stem from there. There's a member in here called You that might benefit from this reading also. By the way, very short and direct book.

Thanks for the recommendation Amazoniac, sounds like a good book for me so I'll check it out. I definitely have a problem trying to meet peoples expectations. It's something I'm really working on getting past, because it can be a real impediment to being who I really want to be. In general, I'm really starting to get serious about examining patterns that may have begun in early childhood and working to break them somehow.

I'm temporarily living with my sister, who has a two year old son, and watching her parent him is really making me curious about how I was raised at that age, and how it effects my behavior now. There are lots of interesting things to observe with the dynamics of freedom/control, rewards, punishment, meeting expectations, eating, and so much more. It's all really fascinating and enlightening.
 

Amazoniac

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It's going to be an uncomfortable read then.. But positive by the end.
The truth will set you free is also another great book by Alice. When you become familiar with her work it becomes a bit repetitive, but this one has different insights. Might worth checking..
 

XPlus

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frankfranks said:
Amazoniac said:
XPlus said:
prenatal imprinting.
onioneyedox said:
childhood environment
cantstoppeating said:
it takes time for the damage to accumulate.

Infections/parasites. Dysbiosis. I think there's a growing pile of evidence linking all kinds of problems to previously unsuspected infections.

Opportunistic pathogens? - isn't this a sign of crumbling immune and digestive systems as a result of low metabolism.
 

frankfranks

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XPlus said:
frankfranks said:
Amazoniac said:
XPlus said:
prenatal imprinting.
onioneyedox said:
childhood environment
cantstoppeating said:
it takes time for the damage to accumulate.

Infections/parasites. Dysbiosis. I think there's a growing pile of evidence linking all kinds of problems to previously unsuspected infections.

Opportunistic pathogens? - isn't this a sign of crumbling immune and digestive systems as a result of low metabolism.

I don't think it's enough to simply blame weak immunity, though that's certainly part of it. For example there's convincing evidence (still a bit speculative) that a couple forms of rheumatoid arthritis spread from the New World to Europe and Asia post Columbus. There's an underlying pathogen that spread and produced the disease where it had never been seen before, metabolic rate regardless.

Viruses are clearly linked to various cancers. Toxoplasmosis infection is linked to schizophrenia and other less severe chronic problems like high neuroticism and risk seeking behavior. Childhood and especially pre-natal virus exposures are linked to schizophrenia and homosexuality. I think evidence linking biofilms to heart disease and many other problems is mounting. (The antibacterial action of statins is probably why they "work" in the case of preventing a second heart attack.) I'm really skeptical that you can dismissively say "Well, if you have a high metabolism you just won't get toxoplasmosis or HPV and have the long term effects entailed." Maybe on the margin, but the exposure to pathogens is what creates the risk of disease.

Almost all of what is going on in evolution is related to pathogenic immunity. It's arguably the reason sex even exists. We are swimming in a sea of pathogens and parasites that have all kinds of deleterious effects. I think most of what people consider as exceptionally good health is related to having a very good immune system, and I don't believe immunity is as simple as metabolic rate and nutrition and so forth.
 

XPlus

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frankfranks said:
I don't think it's enough to simply blame weak immunity, though that's certainly part of it. For example there's convincing evidence (still a bit speculative) that a couple forms of rheumatoid arthritis spread from the New World to Europe and Asia post Columbus. There's an underlying pathogen that spread and produced the disease where it had never been seen before, metabolic rate regardless.

Viruses are clearly linked to various cancers. Toxoplasmosis infection is linked to schizophrenia and other less severe chronic problems like high neuroticism and risk seeking behavior. Childhood and especially pre-natal virus exposures are linked to schizophrenia and homosexuality. I think evidence linking biofilms to heart disease and many other problems is mounting. (The antibacterial action of statins is probably why they "work" in the case of preventing a second heart attack.) I'm really skeptical that you can dismissively say "Well, if you have a high metabolism you just won't get toxoplasmosis or HPV and have the long term effects entailed." Maybe on the margin, but the exposure to pathogens is what creates the risk of disease.

Almost all of what is going on in evolution is related to pathogenic immunity. It's arguably the reason sex even exists. We are swimming in a sea of pathogens and parasites that have all kinds of deleterious effects. I think most of what people consider as exceptionally good health is related to having a very good immune system, and I don't believe immunity is as simple as metabolic rate and nutrition and so forth.

One could argue, that some of the things you mention, could be thought of as correlation rather than causation.
I wouldn't argue that once pathogens invade the host and grow, they wreak havoc on the system.
The question I always have had in mind is to what extent our system is capable of repelling them and under what conditions. I have my doubts of the ideology proposed by modern medicine and geneticists that our bodies are inherently weak and susceptible to the variety of diseases and infections they currently are.


How do we explain those people who get themselves exposed to STIs but never seem to get them.
Those whose systems are resistant to HIV? - Modern medicine do not have good answers to these, because as Peat puts it, they think of life as something immaterial and things that can't be explained within their paradigm, are attributed to the "immaterial" properties of the body.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/au ... ians.shtml
There were several reasons that European and American scientists couldn't accept the universal nature of the electrical properties that they were studying in animals. One of their motives was to see life as something immaterial, or of an absolutely different nature than inorganic matter. Another problem had to do with the developing belief that the special properties of life were enclosed in the hereditary substance of each cell, and that the electrical functions of cells were produced entirely by the presence of a membrane, surrounding a drop of water containing randomly moving dissolved chemicals. For the membrane electricity theory, it was essential to believe in the random behavior of things dissolved in the cell water.

Coming to read Peat recently, I have a lot more confidence in the body's ability to self-heal, resist infections and fight diseases. If not all sorts of diseases, at least the majority of those modern medicine can't find a good answers to.

It seems to me that he offers more cohesive explanations for health issues and never blames "immaterialism" for things that are out of the scope of his knowledge (e.g. IBS, fibromyalgia)

Mainstream science isn't steered in this direction. Rather, most modern research is focused on genetics, statistics, and pharmaceutical product development, all while the human body is thought of as giant pump, full of locks and keys, and one that is prone to rust.
 

Amazoniac

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XPlus said:
Mainstream science isn't steered in this direction. Rather, most modern research is focused on genetics, statistics, and pharmaceutical product development, all while the human body is thought of as giant pump, full of locks and keys, and one that is prone to rust.

You just pointed three of the most promising areas in the future..
They'll probably get closer and closer with time, until they integrate and are able to make significant advances in medicine.
 

XPlus

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Amazoniac said:
XPlus said:
Mainstream science isn't steered in this direction. Rather, most modern research is focused on genetics, statistics, and pharmaceutical product development, all while the human body is thought of as giant pump, full of locks and keys, and one that is prone to rust.

You just pointed three of the most promising areas in the future..
They'll probably get closer and closer with time, until they integrate and are able to make significant advances in medicine.

Let's hope those advances are geared towards regeneration of self rather than regeneration of money.
 

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