how can i prevent hairline receding further? (photos attached)

dylanrr1

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Nov 16, 2019
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92
@haidut has more knowledge than all of us here combined.

Haidut literally produces research chemicals, dozens of them, which according to Roddy and himself would further help on top of the lifestyle stuff.

In other words, there is no other person on planet earth that, if Roddy/Peat/Haidut was correct about hairloss, should have a better chance regrowing their hair. He knows a LOT. He has UNBELIEVABLE access to peaty chemicals/hormones etc.

So let me ask one question:

Why do you @haidut not regrow your hair? This will end the debate and I will be the first one here to shut up.

Is it, because, you can't? Or you don't want to?
The most important thing to remember is that everyone's situation is different. To be honest, I find it quite disturbing that this is even something you were contemplating. But of course you're not the first person to make these claims and remarks about haidut and you certainly wont be the last, which is disappointing.

Its very clear that you don't know anything about haiduts history and personal life, which he has talked about far more than he should ever have to. From what I remember him saying on various podcasts, he lost all of his hair at the peak of his paleo diet and then regrew 60% of it, some of which comes and goes with the summer and winter cycles.

He also said that he has stress that he cant avoid, which is why he cant keep the regrowth. He works up to, or exceeding, 12 hours a day on top of having a family and kids to look after and be responsible for. ALL while researching and studying for hours and posting his findings here to help countless people for FREE. His hair loss reversal already mentioned is pretty remarkable in and of itself, especially after the stress he put his body through with a low carb diet, chronic over exercise and extreme work stress. I believe the doctors and neurologists at the time tried to diagnose his condition as multiple sclerosis, which got worse and worse with time until he discovered Ray Peat.

You also need to remember that there is calcification involved in hair loss that requires mechanical actions such as topicals, scalp massaging, headstands, red light, scalp exercises which have been a integral part of peoples hair loss recovery. On top of everything you mentioned with chemicals, diet, hormones whatever, these mechanical actions take time. Something which some people simply cant create.

I hope that this will remind you next time to think more about this - everyone has their own unique situation, with different goals, desires, intentions and PRIORITIES.
 

keytothecity

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Dec 5, 2020
Messages
175
The most important thing to remember is that everyone's situation is different. To be honest, I find it quite disturbing that this is even something you were contemplating. But of course you're not the first person to make these claims and remarks about haidut and you certainly wont be the last, which is disappointing.

Its very clear that you don't know anything about haiduts history and personal life, which he has talked about far more than he should ever have to. From what I remember him saying on various podcasts, he lost all of his hair at the peak of his paleo diet and then regrew 60% of it, some of which comes and goes with the summer and winter cycles.

He also said that he has stress that he cant avoid, which is why he cant keep the regrowth. He works up to, or exceeding, 12 hours a day on top of having a family and kids to look after and be responsible for. ALL while researching and studying for hours and posting his findings here to help countless people for FREE. His hair loss reversal already mentioned is pretty remarkable in and of itself, especially after the stress he put his body through with a low carb diet, chronic over exercise and extreme work stress. I believe the doctors and neurologists at the time tried to diagnose his condition as multiple sclerosis, which got worse and worse with time until he discovered Ray Peat.

You also need to remember that there is calcification involved in hair loss that requires mechanical actions such as topicals, scalp massaging, headstands, red light, scalp exercises which have been a integral part of peoples hair loss recovery. On top of everything you mentioned with chemicals, diet, hormones whatever, these mechanical actions take time. Something which some people simply cant create.

I hope that this will remind you next time to think more about this - everyone has their own unique situation, with different goals, desires, intentions and PRIORITIES.
I know pretty well everyones situation is different, in fact I think many mens hair situation is quite hopeless if they want to stay men.

As for his hair loss reversal, I don't really see it? If he had regrown 60% of his hair, he would be a visual full head, because people you notice who are balding have already lost around half their hair, if not more. He looks nw5-6 to me. Thats not 60% hair loss reversal, that is at best 20% IF he was nw7 before, which I doubt.

I am welcoming everyone to show me ONE PICTURE of haidut with at least 60% of his scalp hair.

To change the topic, what results have you got to SHOW so far?
 

mrchibbs

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Nov 22, 2017
Messages
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Atlantis
@haidut has more knowledge than all of us here combined.

Haidut literally produces research chemicals, dozens of them, which according to Roddy and himself would further help on top of the lifestyle stuff.

In other words, there is no other person on planet earth that, if Roddy/Peat/Haidut was correct about hairloss, should have a better chance regrowing their hair. He knows a LOT. He has UNBELIEVABLE access to peaty chemicals/hormones etc.

So let me ask one question:

Why do you @haidut not regrow your hair? This will end the debate and I will be the first one here to shut up.

Is it, because, you can't? Or you don't want to?

As @dylanrr1 mentions,

He has adressed this several times. I suggest you watch the bioenergetic podcasts, where he's talked about it on several occasion. Tagging him here is silly and pointless.
 

mrchibbs

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You don't have any burden attached with sharing your thoughts - they hold decent merit on their own of course. That being said you go against the grain and give people advice all the time; i would say that if you go out of your way to educate people having some evidence would be reasonable.

Have you considered that people might not be satisfied with the pictures because they are low quality? That argument actually really irritated me; it seems that people who are desperate to regrow hair would honestly settle for even crappy pictures- ive seen so many popular threads on other forums of people trying a billion different things because somebody posted some poorly lit images showing slight growth. Besides even if his argument were the worst case scenario and some people were not satisfied - what difference would it make. Do you think that those unsatisfied people would go and try his methods now that there is a complete lack of evidence instead of weak evidence? It looks extremely disingenuous on Danny's part.

I actually reviewed every single one of Rob's community member's cases, and have spoken at length with several of them. Rob does recommend making sure that the thyroid is functioning optimally, but its hardly a relevant factor in any of his regrowth stories. Which by the way have very few complete(or even significant) recoveries; there are one or two really impressive ones who attribute it to very aggressive massaging. 'Pro thyroid lifestyle' was not a significant factor in their recovery - . Rob's method primarily focuses on massages- he also recommends the 5ar inhibitors as helping the situation(he of course acknowledges the risks).

I listened to the podcast at the time you suggested. Dht being an estrogen receptor agonist and the characteristics of pseudohermaphrodites and the problematic way the term is used. I listened for about a half- it was interesting though I can't talk intelligently about it; I'll listen to the rest of it tomorrow morning its a bit late here. What did strike me though was that the guy with Roddy was quite bald - no judgement on the guy - but it sort of feels like danny should give him some coaching if he's got it so figured out :):

The point is that Danny backs up his research with a mountain of scientific evidence, so that's the jist of the issue. If you want to discuss that I'm happy to, but debates of pictures and protocol effectiveness are boring to me, because that's all the ''hair loss community'' ever does. Reading Danny's articles, looking at his references, and discussing that is more interesting and productive.

Regarding Rob, he has changed his discourse over the past few years since he started publishing scientific articles. Now I think he very much has to adhere to mainstream ideas since he's working in academic circles, but that doesn't change what was going on a few years ago. I was there in 2016 when he published the 2nd version of his book and I actually saw first hand the common thread in these accounts of regrowth, and it was clearly a pro-thyroid (temperature and pulse) lifestyle and regular massage. I think thyroid is a crucial factor in the results, here is Rob himself in his book, Perfect Hair Health, 2nd edition (2016):

As you make the dietary and lifestyle changes, monitor your temperature regularly and for the course of many months. I watched my temperature rise from 96.7 to 98.4-98.8 over a series of a few months. My hands and feet are no longer always cold. My skin looks more flushed. My hair looks better than when I was 16. These are all changes resulting from reduced inflammation, rebalanced hormonal levels, and a highly functioning thyroid and endocrine system. - Rob English (2016)

If you peruse this forum, and Danny's references, or pubmed, you'll quickly find dozens of good papers highlighting the importance of thyroid function for hair follicles, regrowth with T3, phagocytic, anti-fibrotic activity, wound-healing etc. It's clear to me that thyroid function is fundamentally crucial for something like massages to work.

Contrary to what you wrote about me, I think I rarely give people advice on hair, unless they explicitely ask for it. And for good reason, as it tends to attract pointless arguments. I'm only giving my perspective, and everything I suggested earlier is backed up by scientific research and inference based on the knowledge I've accumulated on this topic, and Ray's ideas.

Regarding podcast #40, do you not know Danny is talking with haidut (Georgi)?

And at any rate, you missed the more important implication of that exchange. They talk about a lot of crucial things which should give you pause about the mainstream view of baldness, for instance this next quote, about an aspect which is massively important and yet overlooked by the mainstream view which focuses strictly on 5α-R and DHT, omitting everything else that is happening.:

Pseudo-hermaphrodites (from DR) have a 5α-reductase deficiency, but also a corresponding deficiency of 17α-hydroxylase, which is accompanied by large production of pregnenolone and progesterone. That complicates things a lot, if you're trying to figure out what causes baldness. - Danny Roddy (2020)

The implications should be self-evident.

DHT applied to the scalp has never been shown to cause hair loss, serum DHT itself is ''not correlated with the advance of androgenetic alopecia'' (Urysiak-Czubatka et al., 2014) , and why would a paracrine steroid which is known to enhance wound-healing and resolve inflammation (Shi, Huaikai et al., 2020) be suddenly bad on the scalp? My take is that it is there for a reason, as part of the general inflammatory pathology of baldness.

I have expanded on these subjects elsewhere before on this forum, and I'm willing to do so again, but that requires a friendly and constructive setting for discussions.
 
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keytothecity

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Dec 5, 2020
Messages
175
The point is that Danny backs up his research with a mountain of scientific evidence,
Every pseudo-scientist does so, and mainstream mpb scientists as well.
so that's the jist of the issue. If you want to discuss that I'm happy to, but debates of pictures and protocol effectiveness are boring to me, because that's all the ''hair loss community'' ever does.
actually almost no one here does it, despite there almost being no pictures. Lot's of cope around here.

Reading Danny's articles, looking at his references, and discussing that is more interesting and productive.
He makes good cases, but it's quite easy to make good cases for just about anything nowadays if you are intelligent enough.
Good theoretical cases are much less important than most people think, because we understand so little still, even if we like to tell ourselves we do, especially when we are obsessed about something.
Regrowing actual hair is where it's at.
Regarding Rob, he has changed his discourse over the past few years since he started publishing scientific articles. Now I think he very much has to adhere to mainstream ideas since he's working in academic circles, but that doesn't change what was going on a few years ago. I was there in 2016 when he published the 2nd version of his book and I actually saw first hand the common thread in these accounts of regrowth,
let me guess, that evidence is gone?
How many cases are you talking?
and it was clearly a pro-thyroid (temperature and pulse) lifestyle and regular massage. Don't assume things you don't know about, here is Rob himself in his book, Perfect Hair Health, 2nd edition (2016):
No critic here is even doubting that many of these things are going to be helpful for hair. What we are doubting is that it will keep the hair of someone prone to balding or make someone who is not lose it, which would be easily refutable by taking a picture with your phone before and after you implement a peaty hair loss protocol and then showing everyone what you accomplished, because we all are (well almost all are, some like to make thousands of posts about hairloss without suffering from it) in this together. There are success threads/pictures all over HLT, yet all you get here is a picture of one person who went from nw 1.2 to nw1, and another one who regrew like half a norwood by going from morbidly obese to slim, who probably didn't have real mpb either but insuline problems.
If I ever have success with anything, I am sure as **** even going to post it even here, even though this forum did no good for my hair (lowered my E despite being low E already for example). I would expect most people who actually have results to do the same.
If you peruse this forum, and Danny's references, or pubmed, you'll quickly find dozens of good papers highlighting the importance of thyroid function for hair follicles, regrowth with T3, phagocytic, anti-fibrotic activity, wound-healing etc. It's clear to me that thyroid function is fundamentally crucial for something like massages to work.
Again, there are studies on anything.
We need cases. If you pretend there is a macro-theory and a macro-approach fixing MPB, and have a forum with hundreds of people engaged in mpb disussion, subscribing to the ideas and trying to regrow their hair, and then all you have left is "you didn't try enough" while 400lb nw0s go for more pufa in the meantime, maybe you should consider that mpb is even more complicated than you thought, or that the theory works for a small (namely: unhealthy) fraction of hairloss sufferers only.
And at any rate, you missed the more important implication of that exchange. They talk about a lot of crucial things which should give you pause about the mainstream view of baldness, for instance this next quote, about an aspect which is massively important and yet overlooked by the mainstream view which focuses strictly on 5α-R and DHT, omitting everything else that is happening.:



The implications should be self-evident.

DHT applied to the scalp has never been shown to cause hair loss, serum DHT itself is ''not correlated with the advance of androgenetic alopecia'' (Urysiak-Czubatka et al., 2014) , and why would a paracrine steroid which is known to enhance wound-healing and resolve inflammation (Shi, Huaikai et al., 2020)

I have expanded on these subjects elsewhere before on this forum, and I'm willing to do so again, but that requires a friendly and constructive setting for discussions.
I do not adress to DHT theory either, but that does not mean Roddy is right.
I think users like chemhead and lemonoil have got a much clearer, and more importantly, less ideologically driven picture of hairloss.
Especially the role of estrogen seems to be very misunderstood here. It seems clear to me that you want it in scalp tissue if you want hair.


Everything other than results is cope. Theories are cope, until they materialize. Protocols are cope until the materialize. Saying you can't avoid stress because you have kids so you can't regrow hair is cope.

Show. Results. Simple as that. It takes 5 seconds to document them nowadays.
 

mrchibbs

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No. We have the right to discuss these things, say you disagree respectfully fine, but you're clearly frustrated and will shoot down anything.

You're confrontational and bring nothing constructive to the table. You're basically throwing a tantrum here instead of behaving like an adult.

Clear exhibit of learned helplessness.
 

keytothecity

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Joined
Dec 5, 2020
Messages
175
No. We have the right to discuss these things,
Yes.
Whether you have the moral right to present theories with little to no results as facts to newbies fighting for their hair is a different story.
say you disagree respectfully fine, but you're clearly frustrated and will shoot down anything.
No. I’m interested in the nlrp3 thread for example, because non ideological driven people who realize just how complicated mpb is are posting
You're confrontational and bring nothing constructive to the table.
2 members have congratulated me to my last posts in pm.
I reckon many more members and ghostreaders find my posts useful
You're basically throwing a tantrum here instead of behaving like an adult.

Clear exhibit of learned helplessness.
Learned helplessness = subscribing to theories and protocols with no successful track record (coping)
Learned helplessness is also projecting your whole self worth on the fact you are nw1 as if it says more about human physiology than, wide hips for example, or more about human psychology („the balding personality“, lol) than having 2000 posts on mpb without having mpb.
Enjoy your hair that comes with your tissue aromatase and stop telling people you know next to nothing about to lower their E through aspirin. You might have good intentions but you do more harm than good and you, like me, know next to nothing. You are connecting dots like every scientist and conspiracy theorist without realizing that the coordinate system is flawed
 

mrchibbs

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I think it's morally reprehensible to keep people in a perpetual cycle of ignorance, dogma and helplessness.

You also accuse me of ''doing more harm than good'', of ''being ideologically driven''. A bit weird, I disagree with these claims but that is your perspective and you're entitled to it. I think the conventional culture about MPB and genetic determinism is what is profoundly harmful and ideologically driven.

You imply I don't realize how complicated MPB is, and yet you basically equate hair growing on the scalp with aromatase. I could bring up any aspects of hair loss to discuss and contradict this perspective and you'd shoot it down and ask for pics.

I think I make sensible points, and I try to back up what I say. It shouldn't be dismissed because ''there are studies on anything''.

The point here is that instead of being confrontational, you could could get across your same points in a civilized manner, and there would be no problem at all. But you're not interested in discussing anything that doesn't fit your worldview.

This is a forum where we should be able to discuss these ideas. I am not here to sell you a hair regrowth regimen. Yes, I connect the dots, I think that is a worthwhile endeavour. Maybe you don't see value in the ideas I bring across, again, that's fine.

But you don't get to derail the discussion everytime because you're frustrated you don't have hair on your scalp.

I am always willing to discuss this topic, in a respectful manner. This is usually the beauty of RPF.

I don't mind if you disagree with me. Just do it in a sensible way without going on a rant everytime.
 

GreekDemiGod

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Aug 9, 2019
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Show. Results. Simple as that. It takes 5 seconds to document them nowadays.
Perhaps the implementation of the protocols is the hard thing to do and that's why most fail. Maybe most people don't even succeed in fixing their thyroid., for example.

EDIT: Found this in a Facebook group related to Looks maximizing. Thoughts, anyone?135462320_10219125353825509_3170948695014636817_n.jpg
 
Last edited:

BrianF

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Mar 25, 2016
Messages
299
Perhaps the implementation of the protocols is the hard thing to do and that's why most fail. Maybe most people don't even succeed in fixing their thyroid., for example.
I'd agree with that entirely. I have been suffering hairloss since my early 20s and at 47 still have a head of hair, albiet thinned out. I have in the last few years arrested hairloss and I know that total baldness, like my father and brother, isn't a forgone conclusion for me. I have experienced regrowth (as I have mentioned, even my ex partner pointed this out to me) but no I haven't got impressive, conclusive before and after pics. I have struggled to commit to any one protocol such as intense scalp massage, because I am a father, I need to work for a living in a big city and 40 mins a day is a commitment I'm not able to maintain.

This has been a great thread and the knowledge I've taken from here and from John Wester's work regards fungus, I've even improved my scalp condition again.
 

keytothecity

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But you don't get to derail the discussion everytime because you're frustrated you don't have hair on your scalp.

I am always willing to discuss this topic, in a respectful manner. This is usually the beauty of RPF.

I don't mind if you disagree with me. Just do it in a sensible way without going on a rant everytime.

All words. No results.

We are not going to agree on any course of action because talking more doesn't adress the problem, which is no one is regrowing hair.

If anyone here regrows hair using this forums dogma I'll gladly admit I was wrong, and gladly apologize and obviously try to mimick what these persons have been doing differently than me.

Less than a total norwood reversed in hundreds, probably thousands of individuals who are and have been participating isn't going to cut it.

This forum is incredibly active, hundreds of members online everytime. And no pictures. It's not a stretch to call this cope, because it is.
 

Kenny

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Perhaps the implementation of the protocols is the hard thing to do and that's why most fail. Maybe most people don't even succeed in fixing their thyroid., for example.

EDIT: Found this in a Facebook group related to Looks maximizing. Thoughts, anyone?View attachment 21030
I’m certain that is a very relevant factor - though it can’t be that every single person who tried chibbs(Danny)’s methods ran out of stamina or something. We have decent pictures on other sites of people dedicating to massaging 6 hours a week with fewer active members.

Using minoxidil and Derma rolling is a powerful combo makes sense that he got results
 

keytothecity

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I'd agree with that entirely. I have been suffering hairloss since my early 20s and at 47 still have a head of hair, albiet thinned out. I have in the last few years arrested hairloss and I know that total baldness, like my father and brother, isn't a forgone conclusion for me. I have experienced regrowth (as I have mentioned, even my ex partner pointed this out to me) but no I haven't got impressive, conclusive before and after pics. I have struggled to commit to any one protocol such as intense scalp massage, because I am a father, I need to work for a living in a big city and 40 mins a day is a commitment I'm not able to maintain.

This has been a great thread and the knowledge I've taken from here and from John Wester's work regards fungus, I've even improved my scalp condition again.
I have halted hairloss as well, but no one with mpb regrows any cosmetically relevant hair here.
 

keytothecity

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Dec 5, 2020
Messages
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Perhaps the implementation of the protocols is the hard thing to do and that's why most fail. Maybe most people don't even succeed in fixing their thyroid., for example.

EDIT: Found this in a Facebook group related to Looks maximizing. Thoughts, anyone?View attachment 21030
why are you looking for people using fda drugs if you believe in this forum?
 

BrianF

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Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
299
I have halted hairloss as well, but no one with mpb regrows any cosmetically relevant hair here.
Ive halted hairloss through the knowledge ive learned on here from Peat, Roddy, Haidut, Nathan, Travis, Elephanto, John Wester and others.

Halting hairloss is minor ******* miracle in itself! How many lives has it ruined, how much despair have men felt in helpessness as they went bald completely.

You arrested your hairloss. Thats awsome mate and I expect guys on here to solve the riddle - I really do!
 

Peeno

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May 2, 2020
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Zinc 30mg, B6 5-10mg, zix topical (which is zinc and b6 p5p in ethanol).
 

JanP

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May 19, 2017
Messages
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I remember you were using high doses of taurine. Stopping taurine supplementation would be the first thing I'd do.
 

ddjd

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Thread starter
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I remember you were using high doses of taurine. Stopping taurine supplementation would be the first thing I'd do.
 

GenericName86

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Jun 30, 2018
Messages
198
Ive halted hairloss through the knowledge ive learned on here from Peat, Roddy, Haidut, Nathan, Travis, Elephanto, John Wester and others.

Halting hairloss is minor ******* miracle in itself! How many lives has it ruined, how much despair have men felt in helpessness as they went bald completely.

You arrested your hairloss. Thats awsome mate and I expect guys on here to solve the riddle - I really do!
What were some of the things you picked up from Travis and Nathan that helped?
 
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