how can i prevent hairline receding further? (photos attached)

mrchibbs

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Does topical SSKI (potassium iodide) work in place of progesterone? T3?

Usually, there is something to oppose 5-AR/androgens and something to increase growth/IGF-1. Which is doing which here? Would added capsaicin be relevant? MSM

I don't believe in opposing 5-AR/Androgens to regrow hair. I am aware that this is not the view of the majority.

But if that is the intent, Zix (Zinc/B6) can take care of that. Zinc is a known inhibitor of 5-aR at high doses. Together they also decrease prolactin, cortisol and increase progesterone which I think is the main reason for its effectiveness.

I don't know much about potassium iodide. I'm sure capsaicin is useful as well, curcumin is also a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor.

However, I believe in keeping things simple.
 
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RealNeat

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On Rays recent (ONR) interview he suggested using Niacin (flush) topically on the problem areas. He also gave an example of a man who fell head first into a fire (i try not to laugh when i say this, but fail) that induced hair growth because of the injury.

I think the intensity of the scalp stimulation depends on the extent of fibrosis. For you some topical Niacin could do the trick to provide enough stimulation, no need to set your head on fire...yet.

Topical castor, peppermint and rosemary oil have also been talked about as ways to induce hair growth here. Of course read Danny Roddys book. ]

And the SO often overlooked shower filter because tap water is disgusting and toxic and non toxic hair soaps/shampoos. These two ALONE gave me fuller hair.
 

Inaut

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J Cosmet Dermatol
. 2005 Dec;4(4):258-61. doi: 10.1111/j.1473-2165.2005.00201.x.
A pilot study evaluating the efficacy of topically applied niacin derivatives for treatment of female pattern alopecia
Zoe Diana Draelos 1, Elaine L Jacobson, Hyuntae Kim, Moonsun Kim, Myron K Jacobson
Affiliations expand
PMID: 17168873 DOI: 10.1111/j.1473-2165.2005.00201.x
Abstract
Background: Female pattern alopecia is a common dermatologic condition that manifests after puberty. The only approved drug treatment for this condition is 2% minoxidil for topical application.

Aims: This pilot study examined the effect of topical application of two niacin derivatives, octyl nicotinate and tetradecyl nicotinate, on hair fullness in female alopecia.

Patients/methods: Sixty female subjects with Ludwig types I-III female pattern hair loss were evaluated in a double-blinded, placebo-controlled (40 active, 20 placebo) design using standardized 35-mm photographic analyses for assessment of efficacy after 6 months of application.

Results: The niacin derivatives demonstrated a statistically significant increase in hair fullness (P = 0.04 compared to the placebo).

Conclusion: Whereas evaluation of hair growth in women is challenging, this 6-month pilot study demonstrated statistically significant increase in hair fullness on blinded 35-mm photographic analysis. Long-term topical application of nicotinic acid derivatives offers promise for providing benefit in female alopecia and warrants further study.

 

Kenny

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I don't believe in opposing 5-AR/Androgens to regrow hair. I am aware that this is not the view of the majority.

But if that is the intent, Zix (Zinc/B6) can take care of that. Zinc is a known inhibitor of 5-aR at high doses. Together they also decrease prolactin, cortisol and increase progesterone which I think is the main reason for its effectiveness.

I don't know much about potassium iodide. I'm sure capsaicin is useful as well, curcumin is also a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor.

However, I believe in keeping things simple.
I’m curious - do you mean you don’t believe it regrows hair or that you don’t believe it slows/halts progression

The former is not common but the latter is the case for most users. Countless testimonials back that up of course.

Zinc and curcumin are awesome but not super powerful
 

baccheion

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I don't believe in opposing 5-AR/Androgens to regrow hair. I am aware that this is not the view of the majority.

But if that is the intent, Zix (Zinc/B6) can take care of that. Zinc is a known inhibitor of 5-aR at high doses. Together they also decrease prolactin, cortisol and increase progesterone which I think is the main reason for its effectiveness.

I don't know much about potassium iodide. I'm sure capsaicin is useful as well, curcumin is also a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor.

However, I believe in keeping things simple.
That's the common trend. And it seems to make sense. At the core, I suppose it's lowering inflammation and oxidative stress.

One symptom of progesterone deficiency is MPB. It is also said inflammation/oxidation states burn through zinc, magnesium, vitamin B6, etc.
 

mrchibbs

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I’m curious - do you mean you don’t believe it regrows hair or that you don’t believe it slows/halts progression

The former is not common but the latter is the case for most users. Countless testimonials back that up of course.

Zinc and curcumin are awesome but not super powerful

I just don't think that hair loss is caused by androgens and/or ''genetics'', and therefore, it's doesn't make sense to me to focus on those as means of regrowing hair. Again, this is merely my take on things.

Moreover, I'm inclined to believe that the effects of finasteride, spironolactone, cyproterone acetate and other progesterone derivates are not determined by the inhibition of androgens, including DHT.

Regarding curcumin, I'm just throwing that out there as an example, since capsaicin was mentioned and it is too a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. Basically anything which prevents the degradation of carbon dioxide will likely increase *safe* vasodilation (contrary to the emergency system of NO) and is susceptible to be very beneficial in the context of the general pathology of hair loss/MPB.
 

Kenny

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I just don't think that hair loss is caused by androgens and/or ''genetics'', and therefore, it's doesn't make sense to me to focus on those as means of regrowing hair. Again, this is merely my take on things.

Moreover, I'm inclined to believe that the effects of finasteride, spironolactone, cyproterone acetate and other progesterone derivates are not determined by the inhibition of androgens, including DHT.

Regarding curcumin, I'm just throwing that out there as an example, since capsaicin was mentioned and it is too a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. Basically anything which prevents the degradation of carbon dioxide will likely increase *safe* vasodilation (contrary to the emergency system of NO) and is susceptible to be very beneficial in the context of the general pathology of hair loss/MPB.
Well 'cause' is a loaded term - its clear that drugs that reduce androgens seem to have a profound effect on the rate of progression by some mechanism. Localized and systemic reduction of androgens are what the efficacious drugs have in common - hence why people use the word cause.

I'm sure there is a more nuanced 'cause' higher up in the hair loss cascade - its just this is the link that is easiest to identify

As for genetics - all we can really say is it runs in families in similar patterns at similar stages in life. Attributing things to genes isn't very productive in solving problems - but clearly there is a massive hereditary component; somebody with a careless lifestyle from a family of NW0s will probably always have their hair and somebody whose entire family went bald by their twenties will probably lose it despite their best efforts to be healthy.
 

mrchibbs

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Well 'cause' is a loaded term - its clear that drugs that reduce androgens seem to have a profound effect on the rate of progression by some mechanism. Localized and systemic reduction of androgens are what the efficacious drugs have in common - hence why people use the word cause.

I'm sure there is a more nuanced 'cause' higher up in the hair loss cascade - its just this is the link that is easiest to identify

As for genetics - all we can really say is it runs in families in similar patterns at similar stages in life. Attributing things to genes isn't very productive in solving problems - but clearly there is a massive hereditary component; somebody with a careless lifestyle from a family of NW0s will probably always have their hair and somebody whose entire family went bald by their twenties will probably lose it despite their best efforts to be healthy.

There is a definite hereditary element, which is more readily explained in terms of transgenerational effects. I think this is easy to conceptualize, and sadly the language of genetic theory has prevented much research in this area (transgenerational epigenetics). But there is still some research, hopefully it will become more popular and better funded in the coming years.

Hair loss is not complicated at all, at least from my point of view. It's not mysterious or nuanced at all, when you look at it from a bioenergetic perspective. Danny Roddy has the best research on the topic bar none, and it's impossible to dismiss the mountain of evidence he has put together over the years. There is some degree of complexity, but the overall picture is pretty straightforward.

The drugs you refer to have something more fundamental in common than their putative anti-androgenic effects. I recommend Danny & Georgi's discussion at around 30 minutes of podcast #40.

And with all due respect, you're oversimplifying the topic by reverting to the tired tropes about NWOs with careless lifestyle. Clearly this is not a surprising reality, some people can get away with murder, and this is influenced by the entire process of development, and things like hormonal imprinting, which is a more meaningful concept (vs. genes)
 
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Cloudhands

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After viewing many studies showing how prostaglandins inhibit hair growth, I had an idea that keratin itself was likely under the control of the PPARs—the transcriptional receptors for the prostaglandins. After all, you have to take the ghost out of the machine at some point; there has to be a final mechanism for the effects of prostaglandins.

Mice genetically-engineered with no PPARγ receptor on their skin have scarring alopecia. Also, over-expressing PPARγ on the skin protect rats against hair loss. And just as you'd expect, anything that raises prostaglandins on the skin creates similar hair loss: over-expression of cyclooxygenase, over-expression of phospholipase A₂, and over-expression of interferon-γ on the skin all lead to bald mice. In addition to the well-known findings of Louis Garza, you'd be forced to conclude that hair loss is under the control primarily of prostaglandins. You could speculate on an indirect, or even physical mechanism for this; you could say that perhaps that the oils are creating hypoxia, or that prostaglandin D₂ is exerting its well-known ischemic effects—but let's not forget that prostaglandins also transcribe/repress mRNA directly. For this reason, I've decided to check to see if the keratin genes were under the control of the PPAR receptors:
Lemay, Danielle G., and Daniel H. Hwang. "Genome-wide identification of peroxisome proliferator response elements using integrated computational genomics." Journal of lipid research (2006)​

Danielle G. Lemay informs us that the PPAR response element is basically AGGTCA. This is the canonical DNA sequence that the PPAR receptors bind to, and you can expect any DNA sequences with the AGGTCA sequence to be under the control of the prostaglandin·PPAR receptors—and their heterodimers.

The European Nucleotide Database has full sequences for all forty keratin genes. I have searched all forty genes for the PPAR response element. This is a six nucleotide sequence, and as such would only be found every.. . . .

(¼)⁶ = (¹⁄₄₀₉₆)

. . . ..four thousand ninety-six base pairs, on average. Keratin genes are rarely this long, and this sequence is found multiple times in many of them—far exceeding chance. The keratins genes which have been found to include the full six nucleotide sequence, or the canonical PPAR response element, are listed below:

keratin 5
keratin 6
keratin 7
keratin 8
keratin 9
keratin 11
keratin 12
keratin 15
keratin 17
keratin 18
keratin 19
keratin 20
keratin 24
keratin 25
keratin 27
keratin 28
keratin 31
keratin 38
keratin 39
keratin 40

All off the other ones have either a the minus-one-base-pair-truncated five-nucleotide sequence (AGGTC) or the core sequence of AGGT, except for keratins 29, 30, and 33.

Wikipedia will inform you that keratins 31–40 are the hair keratins. With this in mind, you'd have to assume that skin keratins are also under the control of the PPAR receptors. This means: prostaglandins could effect keratin expression in epithelial barriers everywhere—even the lungs.

The hair follicle will continue-on with its cycle after explantation showing that it has what can be considered—although I downright hate the analogy—an internal "clock." This fact alone means that it's not under the control of steroid hormones, molecules which cannot be produced locally. The only steroids which are ever produced locally the ones immediately downstream of cholesterol (i.e. pregnenolone and progesterone). The sex hormones are produced by sex organs, and the adrenocorticoids indicate their origin by their name.

The hair cycle is almost certainly under the control of prostaglandins operating through PPARs, and perhaps modulated or interrupted by cytokines and growth factors which influence prostaglandin production. Peptide hormones such as the transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β) series are released cyclically during the hair cycle, appearing in the same order in which they're numbered. In most observations, TGF-β₂ marks the beginning of catagen. Aldosterone has been shown to upregulate this, powerfully, so should theoretically be able to disrupt the hair cycle. Indeed, shock has been shown to cause shedding. Perhaps this is why mineralcorticoids, such as hydrocortisone, will leave a bald spot when applied to the skin. The transforming growth factors go on to release create prostaglandins through the action of phospholipase A₂, connecting mineralcorticoids with PPAR and keratin.

The recent discoveries that prostaglandin E₂ will protect rats from radiation-induced alopecia, that prostaglandin F₂α stimulates the hair growth of the eyelashes, and that prostaglandin D₂ (and derivative J₂) powerfully suppress hair growth lends further credence to the idea fact that prostaglandins have a fundamental role in the hair cycle; and since they almost certainly control keratin production directly through the PPARs, they must be the essential and indivisible component. There is nothing downstream of prostaglandins, besides the transcription of keratin. What still needs to be understood is how the timing is controlled; If I were to take a guess, I would say that the cystosolic concentration of the enzyme prostaglandin D synthase changes in a way that shadows the hair cycle.

There are actually two types of prostaglandin D synthase: one cytosolic, and one blood-borne one (lipocalin-like prostaglandin D synthase). Besides kamikaze cytokines inducing phospholipase A₂ and cyclooxygenase-2, an upregulation of lipocalin-like prostaglandin D synthase could have similar effect. Louis Garza analyzed the mRNA for this enzyme, but he failed to give the PCR primer sequence in his paper. There appears to be no way of knowing whether he measured the mRNA for ptgds or L-ptgds. This is important, as these two enzymes have radically-different origins yet both produce prostaglandin D₂.
 

Kenny

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There is a definite hereditary element, which is more readily explained in terms of transgenerational effects. I think this is easy to conceptualize, and sadly the language of genetic theory has prevented much research in this area (transgenerational epigenetics). But there is still some research, hopefully it will become more popular and better funded in the coming years.

Hair loss is not complicated at all, at least from my point of view. It's not mysterious or nuanced at all, when you look at it from a bioenergetic perspective. Danny Roddy has the best research on the topic bar none, and it's impossible to dismiss the mountain of evidence he has put together over the years. There is some degree of complexity, but the overall picture is pretty straightforward.

The drugs you refer to have something more fundamental in common than their putative anti-androgenic effects. I recommend Danny & Georgi's discussion at around 30 minutes of podcast #40.

And with all due respect, you're oversimplifying the topic by reverting to the tired tropes about NWOs with careless lifestyle. Clearly this is not a surprising reality, some people can get away with murder, and this is influenced by the entire process of development, and things like hormonal imprinting, which is a more meaningful concept (vs. genes)

If it were as simple there would be plenty of people who would have cured themselves with Roddy's research- unfortunately the only 'peat' style success story was a man who had a severe Vitamin D deficiency which was corrected; hardly a reliable precedent. Plenty of people have tried everything Roddy has talked about with nothing to show for it.

I believe it is at least somewhat beneficial but for the most part will not turn the tide if you are losing hair in a family prone to hair loss, as most of the people who have tried these methods will tell you.
 

mrchibbs

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If it were as simple there would be plenty of people who would have cured themselves with Roddy's research- unfortunately the only 'peat' style success story was a man who had a severe Vitamin D deficiency which was corrected; hardly a reliable precedent. Plenty of people have tried everything Roddy has talked about with nothing to show for it.

I believe it is at least somewhat beneficial but for the most part will not turn the tide if you are losing hair in a family prone to hair loss, as most of the people who have tried these methods will tell you.

Believe what you want. That's up to you.

I think the evidence speaks for itself and it is always possible to regrow hair.
 

Kenny

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Believe what you want. That's up to you.

I think the evidence speaks for itself and it is always possible to regrow hair.
lol thanks for your permission

the evidence is obviously in the opposite direction - you can't show me a single person who has reasonable progress pictures that regrew hair not due to some corrected deficiency or recovered effluvium.
 

mrchibbs

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I am not selling anything, the burden of proof is not on me.

I have seen many people regrowing hair without minoxidil and finasteride, for many years. Rob English alone has many examples and pictures of guys regrowing their hair with a pro-thyroid lifestyle + massage going back to 2015. I have my own experience and understanding to know hair can always regrow. But does that even matter?

In my experience, people who ask for pictures are never satisfied. That's why Danny doesn't post any pictures anymore.

Let's talk about actual constructive points, have you listened to the exchange between Danny and Georgi? If you haven't it indicates to me that you're more interested in shooting down discussions than actually having a productive exchange.
 

Kenny

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I am not selling anything, the burden of proof is not on me.

I have seen many people regrowing hair without minoxidil and finasteride, for many years. Rob English alone has many examples and pictures of guys regrowing their hair with a pro-thyroid lifestyle + massage going back to 2015. I have my own experience and understanding to know hair can always regrow. But does that even matter?

In my experience, people who ask for pictures are never satisfied. That's why Danny doesn't post any pictures anymore.

Let's talk about actual constructive points, have you listened to the exchange between Danny and Georgi? If you haven't it indicates to me that you're more interested in shooting down discussions than actually having a productive exchange.

You don't have any burden attached with sharing your thoughts - they hold decent merit on their own of course. That being said you go against the grain and give people advice all the time; i would say that if you go out of your way to educate people having some evidence would be reasonable.

Have you considered that people might not be satisfied with the pictures because they are low quality? That argument actually really irritated me; it seems that people who are desperate to regrow hair would honestly settle for even crappy pictures- ive seen so many popular threads on other forums of people trying a billion different things because somebody posted some poorly lit images showing slight growth. Besides even if his argument were the worst case scenario and some people were not satisfied - what difference would it make. Do you think that those unsatisfied people would go and try his methods now that there is a complete lack of evidence instead of weak evidence? It looks extremely disingenuous on Danny's part.

I actually reviewed every single one of Rob's community member's cases, and have spoken at length with several of them. Rob does recommend making sure that the thyroid is functioning optimally, but its hardly a relevant factor in any of his regrowth stories. Which by the way have very few complete(or even significant) recoveries; there are one or two really impressive ones who attribute it to very aggressive massaging. 'Pro thyroid lifestyle' was not a significant factor in their recovery - . Rob's method primarily focuses on massages- he also recommends the 5ar inhibitors as helping the situation(he of course acknowledges the risks).

I listened to the podcast at the time you suggested. Dht being an estrogen receptor agonist and the characteristics of pseudohermaphrodites and the problematic way the term is used. I listened for about a half- it was interesting though I can't talk intelligently about it; I'll listen to the rest of it tomorrow morning its a bit late here. What did strike me though was that the guy with Roddy was quite bald - no judgement on the guy - but it sort of feels like danny should give him some coaching if he's got it so figured out :):
 

dylanrr1

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You don't have any burden attached with sharing your thoughts - they hold decent merit on their own of course. That being said you go against the grain and give people advice all the time; i would say that if you go out of your way to educate people having some evidence would be reasonable.

Have you considered that people might not be satisfied with the pictures because they are low quality? That argument actually really irritated me; it seems that people who are desperate to regrow hair would honestly settle for even crappy pictures- ive seen so many popular threads on other forums of people trying a billion different things because somebody posted some poorly lit images showing slight growth. Besides even if his argument were the worst case scenario and some people were not satisfied - what difference would it make. Do you think that those unsatisfied people would go and try his methods now that there is a complete lack of evidence instead of weak evidence? It looks extremely disingenuous on Danny's part.

I actually reviewed every single one of Rob's community member's cases, and have spoken at length with several of them. Rob does recommend making sure that the thyroid is functioning optimally, but its hardly a relevant factor in any of his regrowth stories. Which by the way have very few complete(or even significant) recoveries; there are one or two really impressive ones who attribute it to very aggressive massaging. 'Pro thyroid lifestyle' was not a significant factor in their recovery - . Rob's method primarily focuses on massages- he also recommends the 5ar inhibitors as helping the situation(he of course acknowledges the risks).

I listened to the podcast at the time you suggested. Dht being an estrogen receptor agonist and the characteristics of pseudohermaphrodites and the problematic way the term is used. I listened for about a half- it was interesting though I can't talk intelligently about it; I'll listen to the rest of it tomorrow morning its a bit late here. What did strike me though was that the guy with Roddy was quite bald - no judgement on the guy - but it sort of feels like danny should give him some coaching if he's got it so figured out :):
I’m nowhere near as educated on this topic as @mrchibbs , but I just wanted to add a few views that I had from reading many posts from this forum. Like I already mentioned to another user in this thread, if you haven’t already, I highly recommend reading through @Elephanto posts regarding hair loss on this forum.

Where you mentioned that drugs that ‘lower androgens’ have been successful for treating hair loss, in my opinion, high androgens can be bad (one example is through increase sebum production) but in most cases this is only in combination with things like high endotoxin, stress, estrogen and serotonin.

Another way that thyroid can help hair loss aside from all of the pro-metabolic effects, and the fact that your hair follicles require it to grow, is that it stops the bacterial overgrowth in the body. The endotoxins from this bacterial overgrowth promote chronically high cortisol. Also I don’t think its new knowledge, as it has been discussed here at length, that DHT is a symptom of chronic stress(cortisol), which in turn triggers estrogen. And I’m sure by now you know how bad estrogen is.

So this should further show the importance of thyroid and looking after gut health.

Furthermore, there are many ways in which finasteride could be working for hair loss, and it’s not just lowering androgens, please also read this for an example Finasteride Activity Against Candida Albicans.
 

keytothecity

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Dec 5, 2020
Messages
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There is a definite hereditary element, which is more readily explained in terms of transgenerational effects. I think this is easy to conceptualize, and sadly the language of genetic theory has prevented much research in this area (transgenerational epigenetics). But there is still some research, hopefully it will become more popular and better funded in the coming years.

Hair loss is not complicated at all, at least from my point of view. It's not mysterious or nuanced at all, when you look at it from a bioenergetic perspective. Danny Roddy has the best research on the topic bar none, and it's impossible to dismiss the mountain of evidence he has put together over the years. There is some degree of complexity, but the overall picture is pretty straightforward.

The drugs you refer to have something more fundamental in common than their putative anti-androgenic effects. I recommend Danny & Georgi's discussion at around 30 minutes of podcast #40.

And with all due respect, you're oversimplifying the topic by reverting to the tired tropes about NWOs with careless lifestyle. Clearly this is not a surprising reality, some people can get away with murder, and this is influenced by the entire process of development, and things like hormonal imprinting, which is a more meaningful concept (vs. genes)
@haidut has more knowledge than all of us here combined.

Haidut literally produces research chemicals, dozens of them, which according to Roddy and himself would further help on top of the lifestyle stuff.

In other words, there is no other person on planet earth that, if Roddy/Peat/Haidut was correct about hairloss, should have a better chance regrowing their hair. He knows a LOT. He has UNBELIEVABLE access to peaty chemicals/hormones etc.

So let me ask one question:

Why do you @haidut not regrow your hair? This will end the debate and I will be the first one here to shut up.

Is it, because, you can't? Or you don't want to?
 
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