How Can I Improve Glycogen Storage?

[DRTrenbolone]

I have some questions with regards to this because some of the high fructose/fruit intake is conlficting with physique goals, particularly in a lean massing phase where an individual would be consuming a calorie surplus.

It was my understanding that a high fructose intake in the context of a calorie surplus would result in hepatic conversion to triglycerides a lot easier and more readily than normal. Secondly, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen stores are much better replenished with glucose and starches than fructose...in fact, I thought that fructose only had the ability to replenish liver glycogen stores.

I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

 

[dd99]

post 101510 I have some questions with regards to this because some of the high fructose/fruit intake is conlficting with physique goals, particularly in a lean massing phase where an individual would be consuming a calorie surplus.

It was my understanding that a high fructose intake in the context of a calorie surplus would result in hepatic conversion to triglycerides a lot easier and more readily than normal. Secondly, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen stores are much better replenished with glucose and starches than fructose...in fact, I thought that fructose only had the ability to replenish liver glycogen stores.

I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

So, DRTrenbolone, in your experience, is there an optimal fructose:glucose ratio? I've been at least 1:1 for past year and a half and my triglycerides and belly fat have risen noticeably.

 

[tara]

post 101510 I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

I'm not up with body building practice or what best supports muscle glycogen storage, but if you don't have trouble with starches, I don't see any reason not to keep eating some, if it works for you, as well as also having some fruit etc. Potatoes have advantages over grains nutrition-wise unless you have specific trouble with nightshades. If you have trouble with potatoes, white rice seems pretty benign.

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101739

post 101510 I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

I'm not up with body building practice or what best supports muscle glycogen storage, but if you don't have trouble with starches, I don't see any reason not to keep eating some, if it works for you, as well as also having some fruit etc. Potatoes have advantages over grains nutrition-wise unless you have specific trouble with nightshades. If you have trouble with potatoes, white rice seems pretty benign.

I have to say...I'm much more fond of starches than many of those on this board...I cannot say that I've ever felt ill or tired or anything after consuming large quantities of white rice or potatoes. I think for the purposes of optimally fueling anaerobic training and filling glycogen stores...sure fructose can restore muscle glycogen in a sort of round about way...but, it does so by being converted to glucose in the liver first and then shuttled into circulation to be utilized as substrate or stored in the the muscles. It would appear to make more sense to just use the substrate that fructose needs to be converted to in the first place...

I have no problem with fructose and I consume a lot of fruit in a day...but, I think more than 50g a day of pure fructose for most people who are pretty sedentary is asking for trouble.

 

[DRTrenbolone]

post 101611

post 101510 I have some questions with regards to this because some of the high fructose/fruit intake is conlficting with physique goals, particularly in a lean massing phase where an individual would be consuming a calorie surplus.

It was my understanding that a high fructose intake in the context of a calorie surplus would result in hepatic conversion to triglycerides a lot easier and more readily than normal. Secondly, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen stores are much better replenished with glucose and starches than fructose...in fact, I thought that fructose only had the ability to replenish liver glycogen stores.

I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

So, DRTrenbolone, in your experience, is there an optimal fructose:glucose ratio? I've been at least 1:1 for past year and a half and my triglycerides and belly fat have risen noticeably.

I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what is optimal for YOU because I don't know what your activity level is like or how your body handles starches etc. I've had periods of my life where I ate maybe 1-2 pieces of fruit and the rest of my carbs came from all kinds of complex sources, starches etc...and I've had periods of my life where a lot of my carbs came from 8 pieces or more of fruit per day and a lot less starches. I can tell you this...in terms of performance in the gym, not a big noticeable difference ASSUMING CALORIES ARE THE SAME AND ACCOUNTED FOR (this is the big key that is overlooked). On the other hand, higher fruit and fructose/sucrose consumption for me in general lends itself with a more ravenous appetite. For me...not a big deal, more of an annoyance than anything else. I'm tracking my food intake daily, so despite being extra hungry, I still stick to my daily needs. However, for the individual who is not tracking their food daily like that...I could see a higher fructose consumption leading to a more ravenous appetite and therefore, overconsumption of calories at the end of the day.

With regards to glycogen replenishment...it is not that fructose cannot replenish muscle glycogen at all...it's just that it doesn't do it nearly as efficiently as glucose or starches can. ^ Insulin = ^ GLUT translocation in skeletal muscle...^GLUT = ^ Glucose uptake = ^ Muscle Glycogen stores. Fructose does not raise insulin to a considerable degree at all and goes straight to the liver..where SOME of it may be converted to glucose and circulated...but, doesn't that seem like a trip around the globe to get to a location that you could have simply turned around and walked a few miles in the opposite direction to get to.

Secondly, noone seems to discuss the impact that increasingly high fructose/sucrose consumption will have on serum triglycerides and LDL cholesterol in comparison to glucose or starches. This is a lot of the reason for NAFLD...hate to say it. The more inactive you are BTW the more of an issue this is. An individual who does a lot of endurance athletics can simply get away with a lot more fructose and sugar than you can...for not only the reason of constantly dumping muscle and liver glycogen, but also the reason of increased calorie demands in general. I cannot in good faith suggest a sedentary individual to consume more than 50g or so of pure fructose per day...almost always passed that point you will find increased tryiglycerides and increased LDL cholesterol.

 

[James IV]

post 101812

post 101611

post 101510 I have some questions with regards to this because some of the high fructose/fruit intake is conlficting with physique goals, particularly in a lean massing phase where an individual would be consuming a calorie surplus.

It was my understanding that a high fructose intake in the context of a calorie surplus would result in hepatic conversion to triglycerides a lot easier and more readily than normal. Secondly, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen stores are much better replenished with glucose and starches than fructose...in fact, I thought that fructose only had the ability to replenish liver glycogen stores.

I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

So, DRTrenbolone, in your experience, is there an optimal fructose:glucose ratio? I've been at least 1:1 for past year and a half and my triglycerides and belly fat have risen noticeably.

I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what is optimal for YOU because I don't know what your activity level is like or how your body handles starches etc. I've had periods of my life where I ate maybe 1-2 pieces of fruit and the rest of my carbs came from all kinds of complex sources, starches etc...and I've had periods of my life where a lot of my carbs came from 8 pieces or more of fruit per day and a lot less starches. I can tell you this...in terms of performance in the gym, not a big noticeable difference ASSUMING CALORIES ARE THE SAME AND ACCOUNTED FOR (this is the big key that is overlooked). On the other hand, higher fruit and fructose/sucrose consumption for me in general lends itself with a more ravenous appetite. For me...not a big deal, more of an annoyance than anything else. I'm tracking my food intake daily, so despite being extra hungry, I still stick to my daily needs. However, for the individual who is not tracking their food daily like that...I could see a higher fructose consumption leading to a more ravenous appetite and therefore, overconsumption of calories at the end of the day.

With regards to glycogen replenishment...it is not that fructose cannot replenish muscle glycogen at all...it's just that it doesn't do it nearly as efficiently as glucose or starches can. ^ Insulin = ^ GLUT translocation in skeletal muscle...^GLUT = ^ Glucose uptake = ^ Muscle Glycogen stores. Fructose does not raise insulin to a considerable degree at all and goes straight to the liver..where SOME of it may be converted to glucose and circulated...but, doesn't that seem like a trip around the globe to get to a location that you could have simply turned around and walked a few miles in the opposite direction to get to.

Secondly, noone seems to discuss the impact that increasingly high fructose/sucrose consumption will have on serum triglycerides and LDL cholesterol in comparison to glucose or starches. This is a lot of the reason for NAFLD...hate to say it. The more inactive you are BTW the more of an issue this is. An individual who does a lot of endurance athletics can simply get away with a lot more fructose and sugar than you can...for not only the reason of constantly dumping muscle and liver glycogen, but also the reason of increased calorie demands in general. I cannot in good faith suggest a sedentary individual to consume more than 50g or so of pure fructose per day...almost always passed that point you will find increased tryiglycerides and increased LDL cholesterol.

I agree with DRTrenbolone, that in real life, non monitored intake, that starch is generally a superior source for the majority of carbohydrate intake. But it's for different reasons. Fructose can be utilized by much of the same tissue as glucose, independent of insulin action, so I don't think in a isocaloric situation sucrose is necessarily more harmful to lipid profile, or less effective for glycogen restoration, than starch. However, in real life, starch foods generally come with a good dose of protein compared to sucrose foods. For instance a 100g of Orange has About 0.8g of protein, while 100g of wheat flour has 7g of protein. So combine this with the higher glucose content of starch, and you will get a much stronger stimulation of insulin and in turn higher satiety.
So basically, I agree that, in a real life scenario, eating (digestible) starches as your primary carbohydrate source will result in more effective energy replacement.

I will also add that a lower meal
frequency, with the same amount of energy/macros will probably result in more efficient glucose storage/utilization due to super-compensatory effects. However, there is probably a point of diminishing returns.

 

[dd99]

post 101611

post 101510 I have some questions with regards to this because some of the high fructose/fruit intake is conlficting with physique goals, particularly in a lean massing phase where an individual would be consuming a calorie surplus.

It was my understanding that a high fructose intake in the context of a calorie surplus would result in hepatic conversion to triglycerides a lot easier and more readily than normal. Secondly, I was under the impression that muscle glycogen stores are much better replenished with glucose and starches than fructose...in fact, I thought that fructose only had the ability to replenish liver glycogen stores.

I could see the elimination of starches and utilizing mainly fructose/fruit in the context of a bulk may pose problems with regards to muscle glycogen fullness and creating an environment more condusive for fat gain due to hepatic conversion of fructose to triglycerides, particularly in the presence of a calorie surplus...

So, DRTrenbolone, in your experience, is there an optimal fructose:glucose ratio? I've been at least 1:1 for past year and a half and my triglycerides and belly fat have risen noticeably.

I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what is optimal for YOU because I don't know what your activity level is like or how your body handles starches etc. I've had periods of my life where I ate maybe 1-2 pieces of fruit and the rest of my carbs came from all kinds of complex sources, starches etc...and I've had periods of my life where a lot of my carbs came from 8 pieces or more of fruit per day and a lot less starches. I can tell you this...in terms of performance in the gym, not a big noticeable difference ASSUMING CALORIES ARE THE SAME AND ACCOUNTED FOR (this is the big key that is overlooked). On the other hand, higher fruit and fructose/sucrose consumption for me in general lends itself with a more ravenous appetite. For me...not a big deal, more of an annoyance than anything else. I'm tracking my food intake daily, so despite being extra hungry, I still stick to my daily needs. However, for the individual who is not tracking their food daily like that...I could see a higher fructose consumption leading to a more ravenous appetite and therefore, overconsumption of calories at the end of the day.

With regards to glycogen replenishment...it is not that fructose cannot replenish muscle glycogen at all...it's just that it doesn't do it nearly as efficiently as glucose or starches can. ^ Insulin = ^ GLUT translocation in skeletal muscle...^GLUT = ^ Glucose uptake = ^ Muscle Glycogen stores. Fructose does not raise insulin to a considerable degree at all and goes straight to the liver..where SOME of it may be converted to glucose and circulated...but, doesn't that seem like a trip around the globe to get to a location that you could have simply turned around and walked a few miles in the opposite direction to get to.

Secondly, noone seems to discuss the impact that increasingly high fructose/sucrose consumption will have on serum triglycerides and LDL cholesterol in comparison to glucose or starches. This is a lot of the reason for NAFLD...hate to say it. The more inactive you are BTW the more of an issue this is. An individual who does a lot of endurance athletics can simply get away with a lot more fructose and sugar than you can...for not only the reason of constantly dumping muscle and liver glycogen, but also the reason of increased calorie demands in general. I cannot in good faith suggest a sedentary individual to consume more than 50g or so of pure fructose per day...almost always passed that point you will find increased tryiglycerides and increased LDL cholesterol.

Thanks, man, that's helpful.

 

[freyasam]

Update: Pepcid did nothing for me. Still struggling with the same symptoms, and I seem to have become more hypothyroid as I've gained 20 pounds and 5 inches on my waist in about 5 months. It doesn't matter what I eat or how much I exercise, I keep gaining weight. I tried again to take thyroid meds--this time Novotiral (t3 and t4, synthetic). I was taking 1/32 a pill every other day for six weeks. It finally built up enough in my system to give me the same reaction I have to every thyroid medication--tachycardia, severe anxiety and insomnia, and muscle aches/ pain.

Giraffe, thanks, I'll read that thread. I'm not taking taurine or glycine as I get headaches and anxiety from them. I seem to react to almost every supplement.

I've asked Peat more than once what to do; he has recommended vit D, calcium and naltrexone. Been taking all three and they haven't helped.

 

[freyasam]

P.S. I can't drink more than a cup of weak coffee without getting horrible anxiety. It's not something that goes away--the more days I drink it, the stronger the reaction is. Same thing with milk, only about 100x stronger.

 

[haidut]

post 105839 P.S. I can't drink more than a cup of weak coffee without getting horrible anxiety. It's not something that goes away--the more days I drink it, the stronger the reaction is. Same thing with milk, only about 100x stronger.

Have you had your cortisol checked?

 

[extremecheddar]

Any updates?

 

[Jsaute21]

Just endogenous thyroid, I mean. It gets better after one year or so (in my case).

@Such_Saturation does this mean it took you about a year to get used to thyroid?

 

[Such_Saturation]

@Such_Saturation does this mean it took you about a year to get used to thyroid?

No I mean stabilizing my blood sugar and stuff.

 

[Jsaute21]

No I mean stabilizing my blood sugar and stuff.

Understood. I assume thyroid played a large role in this process. I am in the midst of trying to accomplish it myself.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Understood. I assume thyroid played a large role in this process. I am in the midst of trying to accomplish it myself.

I did try thyroid at the start and I felt good but it was mostly estrogen, also I'd eat liquorice and get even more hyper (enjoyed classes more and retained more information) and then get flushing on the skin. But I was hungry so the low glycogen didn't really matter. The problem is when you are never hungry and have noticeable or unnoticeable sugar crashes. Even though this makes it easier to evaluate your real health status and make progress.

 

[raypeatclips]

I did try thyroid at the start and I felt good but it was mostly estrogen, also I'd eat liquorice and get even more hyper (enjoyed classes more and retained more information) and then get flushing on the skin. But I was hungry so the low glycogen didn't really matter. The problem is when you are never hungry and have noticeable or unnoticeable sugar crashes. Even though this makes it easier to evaluate your real health status and make progress.

What do you think the cause of blood sugar crashes when not hungry is?

 

[Jsaute21]

I did try thyroid at the start and I felt good but it was mostly estrogen, also I'd eat liquorice and get even more hyper (enjoyed classes more and retained more information) and then get flushing on the skin. But I was hungry so the low glycogen didn't really matter. The problem is when you are never hungry and have noticeable or unnoticeable sugar crashes. Even though this makes it easier to evaluate your real health status and make progress.

Yeah, Thyroid is a tricky beast. My current goal is to try and sustain a decent metabolic rate (75+ pulse) for a longer period of time. How were you able to ultimately improve your glycogen storage?

 

[Such_Saturation]

What do you think the cause of blood sugar crashes when not hungry is?

Probably an oversensitive stomach and high cortisol... low metabolism anyway.

Yeah, Thyroid is a tricky beast. My current goal is to try and sustain a decent metabolic rate (75+ pulse) for a longer period of time. How were you able to ultimately improve your glycogen storage?

I don't know because I still eat more often than a normal person, and I have some periods of good storage and some periods of bad where if I don't eat for a few hours I get 5 minutes of anxiety and then switch to fat stores or muscle stores or whatever. Caffeine definitely helps you tune up your eating cycles with your glycogen cycles... but the only nutrient I felt that I was really "refilling" over the years was vitamin A.

 

[raypeatclips]

Probably an oversensitive stomach and high cortisol... low metabolism anyway.

I've found sometimes when i eat all sugar with a meal, fruit juice, milk, fruit, don't use white sugar much anymore. I get a low blood sugar crash, feel awful and the 5 min anxiety you also mentioned, until i eat something like potatoes or chocolate rice cereal with milk. For some reason starch is balancing for me which seems to go against what I've read from Ray. Do you think that's the same thing you talked about?

 

[Such_Saturation]

I've found sometimes when i eat all sugar with a meal, fruit juice, milk, fruit, don't use white sugar much anymore. I get a low blood sugar crash, feel awful and the 5 min anxiety you also mentioned, until i eat something like potatoes or chocolate rice cereal with milk. For some reason starch is balancing for me which seems to go against what I've read from Ray. Do you think that's the same thing you talked about?

I think you're used to the density of sugar so fruit and milk don't give you enough energy in the timeframe you're used to. The starches you mentioned are much quicker in my opinion and also have a sedating effect almost like a hypnotic pleasure.