How Can Ginger/etc. Compare To Antibiotics?

[MetabolicTrash]

I can't get antibiotics so I use stuff like ginger root, cinnamon, oregano, parsley, salt, raw carrot, garlic, vinegar and etc. Any way of comparing these and similar doses to equivalent doses of antibiotics Ray would recommend?

I'm guessing in high enough doses and mixed-up enough combinations various natural herbs/remedies must somewhat compare to antibiotics.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Many of those herbs are beneficial but I believe bigger doses and mixing can actually be damaging. The compounds in them are strong and strong doesnt always equall better effect. Theres a certain point where you get no more benefit and only more side effects. Out of the ones mentioned I’d be most careful with garlic. Specially raw. Its good to eat but stay under half a clove if your ingesting it raw. Its an MAO A inhibitor which increases serotonin. High doses of raw garlic makes me feel strange. Ginger is awesome. Serotonin antagonist and has Testosterone boosting effect. Cinnamom I believe is good in small amounts specially against insulin resistance. Its also a very strong herb. And has shown to be able to cause liver toxicity in not to high doses when eaten too often. Vinegsr, carrots and salt no problems to ingest as much as youd like. They dont contain so many bioactive substances as previously mentioned. I think oregano is a GABA agonist. Parsley aswell and some T boosting properties. Their antibiotic properties I don’t know. Imo when you feel the most energetic your immune system and you as an whole organism dont need antibiotics everything is primed to ward of and defend itself. Antibiotics is for sick people. Focus on doing things and eating stuff that you feel make you feel good. Get intune with your body.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

No, I get what you mean. I only use them when bloating/gut issues get too intense. It doesn't really matter much since anything I eat can cause bloating -- no way to get around that on normal diet alone.

I avoid garlic mostly, but even Peat himself takes antibiotics regularly and he is not a "sick" person.

 

[Kingpinguin]

No, I get what you mean. I only use them when bloating/gut issues get too intense. It doesn't really matter much since anything I eat can cause bloating -- no way to get around that on normal diet alone.

I avoid garlic mostly, but even Peat himself takes antibiotics regularly and he is not a "sick" person.

I dont believe in taking antibiotics on a regular basis. Seriously its fuc king stupid because we have proof people are dying from multi resistant bacerial strains that are immune to these medications because of over abuse. The only thing you are doing is contributing to the death of many many people. Thats hard fact no denying it. Using/abusing antiobiotics excessivly is a problem. Theres a reason they are perscription based.

 

[Kingpinguin]

New report calls for urgent action to avert antimicrobial resistance crisis

 

[MetabolicTrash]

Not sure I can exactly trust "antibiotic resistance" very much.

Antibiotic Resistance May Be Driven By Pesticides Like RoundUp (glyphosate)

Not saying there's zero merit to the whole idea behind it, but the general fear that bacteria will all suddenly get super powers and then be invincible & kill you just with occasional, low-dose antibiotics or etc. seems far fetched to me a bit. There are probably other factors that play in to the whole big picture here than led on.

How else would you explain Peat for example who normally does and has done this with zero issues? He's definitely not the only one who does this and is doing okay still.

The whole "clean gut theory" has scientific merit to it -- it isn't baseless, but not saying antibiotics are 100% safe in any dose/protocol/person -- and not killing anyone by discussing this here about herbs or etc. working similarly to combat endotoxin/gut sickness/symptoms or such.

Theres a reason they are perscription based.

I generally give the medical industry/professionals the benefit of the doubt, but just because something is held behind a prescription to make it harder to get doesn't necessarily mean it's bad if used certain ways/for certain purposes -- same with OTC stuff that can be very harmful (possibly probiotics as some have pointed out).

 

[tara]

I'm guessing in high enough doses and mixed-up enough combinations various natural herbs/remedies must somewhat compare to antibiotics.

What for?

... we have proof people are dying from multi resistant bacerial strains that are immune to these medications because of over abuse.

+1
I think another of the major contributors is the way they are routinely used in farm animals.

 

[tara]

Not sure I can exactly trust "antibiotic resistance" very much.

What do you mean?
I don't trust there will be effective antibiotics in the future when they are needed at the rate we are going.
Or are you taking an anti-science approach? It's been a well-know issue for many years.

AFAIK, there's nothing far-fetched about it.
Bacteria are many and have short generations. The survivors of antibiotics reproduce. This is how evolution works. Evolving to adapt to conditions can happen fast in species with high numbers and fast reproduction.

There's a 'tragedy of the commons' situation. Some individuals may benefit in the short term from use of antibiotics more liberally on minor issues. When many people do it, and it's used widely in animal husbandry, the whole of the human population carries the risk and cost. Including those who have so far never use antibiotics, but might need them in the future to survive life-threatening infections.

I have family members who would have been dead without antibiotics. Maybe I would be too.

There are people who are dead because of MRSA.

This is not like other health interventions people try out on themselves, that may or may not be helpful to the individual, but probably don't have species-wide consequences.

Scepticism isn't just disbelieving something because we don't understand it.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

What do you mean?
I don't trust there will be effective antibiotics in the future when they are needed at the rate we are going.
Or are you taking an anti-science approach? It's been a well-know issue for many years.

AFAIK, there's nothing far-fetched about it.
Bacteria are many and have short generations. The survivors of antibiotics reproduce. This is how evolution works. Evolving to adapt to conditions can happen fast in species with high numbers and fast reproduction.

There's a 'tragedy of the commons' situation. Some individuals may benefit in the short term from use of antibiotics more liberally on minor issues. When many people do it, and it's used widely in animal husbandry, the whole of the human population carries the risk and cost. Including those who have so far never use antibiotics, but might need them in the future to survive life-threatening infections.

I have family members who would have been dead without antibiotics. Maybe I would be too.

There are people who are dead because of MRSA.

This is not like other health interventions people try out on themselves, that may or may not be helpful to the individual, but probably don't have species-wide consequences.

Scepticism isn't just disbelieving something because we don't understand it.

Where is the anti-science? There will always be some form of resistance in microbials/bacteria, and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. We probably all could have some form of resistant bacteria within us at all times. I mean it seems like you're not one to side with Peat regarding antibiotics or the "clean gut theory," but what fares better? Excess bacteria untreated out of fear of resistance, or some resistant bacteria that could have been populating/be within you anyways? Even with antibiotics creating resistant strains in some species, this alone doesn't prove all resistant-bacteria are simply "bad" just because it didn't die in one fell swoop.

This is not like other health interventions people try out on themselves

People only tend to try out interventions on themselves that they believe will work given the understanding of who they're possibly willing to trust. Given all of the questionable malice you can find in medical establishments about "unexplainable health issues" or "untreatable ills" which do in fact have a traceable understanding, causes, treatments and probably even cures out right, it's no surprise that people sticking to what they're told by those with sometimes ill intentions would be more inclined to limit their scope on what's good for them and what can even take them beyond the "band-aid" solution many experts might suggest to them on getting past issues.

Scepticism isn't just disbelieving something because we don't understand it.

I gave a link to haidut's post(s) showing how resistance can be magnified extremely by other factors outside of just low-dose, regular antibiotic use (that's what I base the questionability of avoiding antibiotics over fear of resistance alone, as if some resistance as a byproduct of keeping the gut cleaner is wholly "bad"). This post isn't even intended to be about arguing over the validity or effectiveness of anitbiotics but about a comparison of herbs to antibiotics in the approach of cleaning the gut, endotoxin/SIBO and various other woes. The more "reverse" to this quoted statement could even apply to you in a sense, i.e., "truth" isn't just believing what you already know/feel. I don't claim to know what's great for everybody, but I have skepticism over much more of the mainstream since finding out about Peat/this forum.

 

[tara]

Where is the anti-science? There will always be some form of resistance in microbials/bacteria, and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. We probably all could have some form of resistant bacteria within us at all times. I mean it seems like you're not one to side with Peat regarding antibiotics or the "clean gut theory," but what fares better? Excess bacteria untreated out of fear of resistance, or some resistant bacteria that could have been populating/be within you anyways? Even with antibiotics creating resistant strains in some species, this alone doesn't prove all resistant-bacteria are simply "bad" just because it didn't die in one fell swoop.

It's anti-science to ignore the facts.
Are you aware of MRSA and the other bugs that are becoming a serious hazard?
That there are many scientists and leading health professionals who are very concerned about this threat?
That antibiotic resistant bugs have been killing 100s of thousands of people?
That scientists say there is real risk that within a relatively short time routine surgeries could become much more risky, maybe too risky - eg caesarian sections, hip replacements, ...?
That some of them are saying there's a real possibility that drug resistant infections could become a bigger health threat than cancer in the fairly near future?
In my view, these things are not good.

Whether or not you believe any specific prediction, how about getting enough information to understand the problem, rather than just writing it off on a hunch?

My point was that antibiotic resistance is a real challenge, whatever the case is for or against particular individuals using antibiotics to deal with specific gut issues.
It's not for me to judge Peat's health issues.
However, I do think there are good reasons not to use antibiotics without reason. My first question to you was what for?
A completely clean gut is not possible. There are undoubtably times when it makes sense to use pharma antibiotics to reduce microbes to deal with serious gut distress. There are also potential downsides from using them when not needed.

There's a lot more to be learned about gut microbiota and symbiosis.

 

[tara]

People only tend to try out interventions on themselves that they believe will work given the understanding of who they're possibly willing to trust. Given all of the questionable malice you can find in medical establishments about "unexplainable health issues" or "untreatable ills" which do in fact have a traceable understanding, causes, treatments and probably even cures out right, it's no surprise that people sticking to what they're told by those with sometimes ill intentions would be more inclined to limit their scope on what's good for them and what can even take them beyond the "band-aid" solution many experts might suggest to them on getting past issues.

I know there are some crappy things happening in establishment medicine, and some of them harm people, and that people take risks with both mainstream and alternative treatments.
My point was that me taking a particular medicine or supplement that might affect me positively or negatively, or even millions of people doing so, doesn't in itself generally create a long-term or permanent bigger health risk for the species for the future.

Although thinking about it, I guess all the estrogenic and serotonergic drugs etc that are making their way into water supplies from human consumption and excretion have effects way beyond the individuals too.

I gave a link to haidut's post(s) showing how resistance can be magnified extremely by other factors outside of just low-dose, regular antibiotic use (that's what I base the questionability of avoiding antibiotics over fear of resistance alone, as if some resistance as a byproduct of keeping the gut cleaner is wholly "bad").

I responded as I did because I thought you were questioning whether antibiotic resistance was a thing at all, and whether it was bad. (From what I can read, definitely yes and yes.)
That other environmental factors could also affect it, as suggested in Haidut's thread that you linked, wouldn't surprise me. Note that as I read it, Haidut's post suggests the combination of SSRIs or glyphosate along with the antibiotics increase the rate at which resistance develops. It's not saying either that resistance isn't happening, or that antibiotic dosing of humans isn't part of it.

This post isn't even intended to be about arguing over the validity or effectiveness of anitbiotics but about a comparison of herbs to antibiotics in the approach of cleaning the gut, endotoxin/SIBO and various other woes.

It's fine to go back to the original thread topic from this tangent.
Then the question of what you want to use antibiotics (natural or pharma) for becomes relevant. If you think you are being badly affected by endotoxin, SIBO or other distress caused or made worse by gut microbes, then it's back to figuring out what will be helpful for you. But it there is nothing wrong, I'd suggest not using pharma antibiotics, since they have a cost (to us all).

 

[tara]

The more "reverse" to this quoted statement could even apply to you in a sense, i.e., "truth" isn't just believing what you already know/feel. I don't claim to know what's great for everybody, but I have skepticism over much more of the mainstream since finding out about Peat/this forum.

I too have become more ready to be sceptical about some messages. But I'm not going by what I feel, I'm going by significant evidence, as presented by relevant scientists.

You've said a number of things that make me wonder whether you understand the issue of antibiotic resistance.
I reacted when you used the word 'far-fetched' in the context of a well-established mechanism, and seemed to be expressing doubt about things that are happening to many people.

I mean it seems like you're not one to side with Peat regarding antibiotics or the "clean gut theory," but what fares better?

AFAIK, Peat mentioned an experiment with isolated mice with clean guts, he sometimes uses antibiotics for his own situation, and occasionally recommends them to someone else in specific situations. I don't have any argument with these. I don't see a 'clean gut theory' here to side for or against.
I do see the point in trying not to get exposed to excessive endotoxin/LPS. (As an aside, I learned to be very sceptical of some 'quackwatch' writer who was rude and dogmatic and didn't show any sign of having heard of LPS etc). I've used AC and garlic at times. My main day to day approach currently is a combination of:

• keeping things moving, so any gram-negatives and endotoxin don't build up too high in the gut
• eat a range of foods in the hope of sustaining a diverse microbiota, so that the nastiest strains don't get out of hand.
• exclude or reduce wheat and dairy (other reasons too, but they might slow transit as well)
• recently been including some raw ginger fairly often - it tastes good and maybe it has some anti-serotonin effect. Wasn't aware it could also be antibiotic - can it?

If/when I get sick, I count garlic as a useful home antibiotic, and vit-C helps keep things moving.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Even carrots can cause antibiotic resistance over time. Should we stop consuming carrots as well?

I recall haidut discussing the antibiotic issue a few years ago on Danny's podcast, and he said that this issue was overblown. Vaccines are a much bigger problems when it comes to the spreading of diseases, according to some posts.

The reason why more people are dying from bacterial infections is not because more people are using antibiotics. It's due to low metabolism, harmful chemicals everywhere, lack of NAD+, which can cause lung infections, etc. If people were healthier, prolonged use of antibiotics wouldn't be necessary. Ray himself uses some from time to time.

Also, just saying "scientists" and "facts" and "anti- science" screams appeal to authority. It's a "fact" that sugar and cholesterol are bad, and anybody who claims otherwise is putting people in danger, according to the medical community.

It's funny that the government allows the use of glyphosate on the food that people eat, but controls antibiotics because they can cause "resistant bacteria", when in fact those pesticides themselves can cause bacteria to become resistant. Very ironic.

If using antibiotics from time to time is the same as killing thousands of people, then I guess Ray is a serial killer, killing everybody within a 5 km radius of him

 

[TheBeard]

How does it compare?

It doesn't

Two years of ungodly amounts of garlic and ginger didn't make my SIBO bulge.

After one course of Rx antibiotics it was gone

 

[thomas00]

garlic is poisonous and causes bacterial growth in the gut

Peat has said many times a big part of what lies behind antibiotic resistance. The agricultural and medical industry have shown exactly how not to use antibiotics- large doses for long periods of time. It's the ideal conditions for resistance. It's a way to excuse poor hygiene practices in farms and hospitals that are also probably too large to be safe.

 

[Astolfo]

How does it compare?

It doesn't

Two years of ungodly amounts of garlic and ginger didn't make my SIBO bulge.

After one course of Rx antibiotics it was gone

Which antibiotic was that you used?

garlic is poisonous and causes bacterial growth in the gut.

Is this based?

 

[methylenewhite]

I can't get antibiotics so I use stuff like ginger root, cinnamon, oregano, parsley, salt, raw carrot, garlic, vinegar and etc.

How is that you can't get antibiotics? Prescription only? Than go to veterinary drugstore. Vet meds prescription only? You go to aquarium store. There is no country in this world where aquarium antibiotics are controlled. Lack of AB control for aquariums created some companies in US selling antibiotics this to hack/overcome state's control.

The antibiotic resistance is a real thing. It is proven to exist in vivo and in vitro. There is horizontal gene exange phenomena.

Call me antipeat but I don't buy this low dose once a week or so antibiotics nonsense. Gene expression works like environment predicting machine. Once an organism entered in contact with some environmental factor this factor is forever "memorized". Frequency of encounter predicts gene expression. If that low dose environmental factor is not enough to kill organism then adaptation takes place. The confirmation of this fact is everywhere in surrounding world. You weightlift and you get gains it's adaption. You stop weightlift and start it again in future you got what? Muscle memory. You overtrain and you are broke. You overtrain too much(like forced work in labour camp) you are dead. Constant or frequent exposure to low dose antibiotic trains bacteria to resist and adapt. Tolerance build up for every environmental factor, including chemicals. Caffeine tolerance another example you don't drink coffee don't take caffeine pills and then you take 1.5 grams of pure caffeine, guess what? Hello ER or even intensive care unit. You take 50 mg of caffeine and rise your dose 50 mg every other week, after some time you come to 1.5 grams dose and you are ok. Everything works like this. There are not only bacterial antibiotic resistance. There is anti-fungals resistance. There antihelmintic drugs resistance. Antiprotozoal medication resistance. Guess what there are people in Gangues Delta resistant to cholera. Natural selection in a bangladeshi population from the cholera-endemic ganges river delta. - PubMed - NCBI
Its called natural selection. Red queen run Red Queen hypothesis - Wikipedia

You deny it? Ok. There are Flat Earth believers.

 

[methylenewhite]

garlic is poisonous and causes bacterial growth in the gut

Peat has said many times a big part of what lies behind antibiotic resistance. The agricultural and medical industry have shown exactly how not to use antibiotics- large doses for long periods of time. It's the ideal conditions for resistance. It's a way to excuse poor hygiene practices in farms and hospitals that are also probably too large to be safe.

It is ok to believe it. Next time someone have infection give him half of a doxy pill nothing more.

What peat calls high dose is not high. There are minimum inhibitory concentration and minimum bactericidal concentration. Antibiotics use guidelines are made according to these two factors.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

How does it compare?

It doesn't

Two years of ungodly amounts of garlic and ginger didn't make my SIBO bulge.

After one course of Rx antibiotics it was gone

I tried a bit of raw garlic, and it did improve things a tiny bit, but garlic breath is terrible, and I can taste it for a day after eating it at breakfast or lunch. I don't see myself being able to eat garlic everyday for months and months, especially when the benefits were so small.

I guess I'll have to try the antibiotics. Did you feel anything in your kidneys during the course?

garlic is poisonous and causes bacterial growth in the gut

Peat has said many times a big part of what lies behind antibiotic resistance. The agricultural and medical industry have shown exactly how not to use antibiotics- large doses for long periods of time. It's the ideal conditions for resistance. It's a way to excuse poor hygiene practices in farms and hospitals that are also probably too large to be safe.

I agree. I heard that cattle that are fed a lot of grains need antibotics, since the grains change the ph of the cow's gut, making them prone to infections. Antibiotic usage seems to become necessary when animals are raised in an unnatural way, especially if the cows are mostly grain- fed.

How is that you can't get antibiotics? Prescription only? Than go to veterinary drugstore. Vet meds prescription only? You go to aquarium store. There is no country in this world where aquarium antibiotics are controlled. Lack of AB control for aquariums created some companies in US selling antibiotics this to hack/overcome state's control.

I have a veterinary drugstore near my house. I'll see what they have. Thanks. I'll see if there are any aquarium stores somewhere in my city as well.

 

[methylenewhite]

I tried a bit of raw garlic, and it did improve things a tiny bit, but garlic breath is terrible, and I can taste it for a day after eating it at breakfast or lunch. I don't see myself being able to eat garlic everyday for months and months, especially when the benefits were so small.

I guess I'll have to try the antibiotics. Did you feel anything in your kidneys during the course?

I agree. I heard that cattle that are fed a lot of grains need antibotics, since the grains change the ph of the cow's gut, making them prone to infections. Antibiotic usage seems to become necessary when animals are raised in an unnatural way, especially if the cows are mostly grain- fed.

I have a veterinary drugstore near my house. I'll see what they have. Thanks. I'll see if there are any aquarium stores somewhere in my city as well.

Come on!! You are in Brazil. Any antibiotic no question asked no prescription in almost any drug store. Doxycycline 7(!) Rs. I bought this one few days ago because I got a cat bite))