How bad is finasteride?

[Lee Simeon]

Is it really that bad?

 

[cupofcoffee]

It's an anti-androgenic medication that inhibits many vital reactions in the body (cortisol deactivation, neurosteroid production, bile production) on top of its inhibition of DHT, which is the main androgenic hormone in the male body.

Yeah, as Peat once said, it's an insane choice.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Is it really that bad?

That depends. Do you like being a man?

Finasteride - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Finasteride, sold under the brand names Proscar and Propecia among others, is a medication used to treat hair loss and benign prostatic hyperplasia in men.[6] It can also be used to treat excessive hair growth in women and as a part of hormone therapy for transgender women.[7][8] It is taken by mouth.[6]

 

[cupofcoffee]

That depends. Do you like being a man?

Finasteride - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the "lol you take tranny pills" argument doesn't give justice to how bad finasteride is,


according to wikipedia, these are the reactions catalyzed by 5AR enzymes

• Cholestenone → 5α-Cholestanone
• Progesterone → 5α-Dihydroprogesterone
• 3α-Dihydroprogesterone → Allopregnanolone
• 3β-Dihydroprogesterone → Isopregnanolone
• Deoxycorticosterone → 5α-Dihydrodeoxycorticosterone
• Corticosterone → 5α-Dihydrocorticosterone
• Cortisol → 5α-Dihydrocortisol
• Aldosterone → 5α-Dihydroaldosterone
• Androstenedione → 5α-Androstanedione
• Testosterone → 5α-Dihydrotestosterone
• Nandrolone → 5α-Dihydronandrolone

5α-Reductase - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(i know you know, i just wanted to point it out)

 

[Lee Simeon]

That depends. Do you like being a man?

Finasteride - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, but I know many people who have taken it without significant side effects and with good results so I am not sure if the cons are more significant than the pros.

 

[Makrosky]

Are you trolling? Don't touch that posion even with nitrile gloves. Read the forum.

 

[cupofcoffee]

Yeah, but I know many people who have taken it without significant side effects and with good results so I am not sure if the cons are more significant than the pros.

PFS Is rare but did you see all the conversions It inhibits? Also considering DHT's benefit

 

[Mister]

Complete and utter poison. It's also a slow and insidious killer for most, you won't notice it immediately but the sides kreep up slowly with time.

The company behind finasteride, Merck also has been part of many scandals like Vioxx where they tampered with the scientific studies, etc.

There are alternatives for hairloss, minox and needling for example (I'm also not a fan of minox though but still much "safer" than fina) Or just get (multiple) hair transplants.

I also strongly doubt anyone taking fina without experiencing side effects, especially long term. Also multiple polls on different forums all show the same results; around 50% experience side effects.

Sadly fina's side effect profile still gets downplayed by young men who are just starting to bald and desperately want a solution for their problem, wanting to believe fina is safe. Tressless on reddit is a great example, it's full of ignorant guys who know absolutely nothing about the endocrine system and some even believe that "DHT is a trash hormone", couldn't be further from the truth. Also many hairloss gurus on youtube exploiting the ignorance of young balding men, making click bait videos for views.

 

[Riesensackteil]

the "lol you take tranny pills" argument doesn't give justice to how bad finasteride is,


according to wikipedia, these are the reactions catalyzed by 5AR enzymes

5α-Reductase - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(i know you know, i just wanted to point it out)

The blocking of aldosterone conversion is probably why finasteride might be so useful.
Hydrogenated hormones are almost always more potent

 

[Jayvee]

Stay away from Finasteride (or any other 'asteride'). It causes major hell trust me. And the whole "only causes symptoms for some" is horseshit. I would have a shiny bald head over what I have been through with it.

 

[ChemHead]

The blocking of aldosterone conversion is probably why finasteride might be so useful.

It's not. I've had PFS multiple times, had one major recovery, and am currently going through recovery again for the final time. Finasteride will cause polyuria and chronic inability to retain moisture. Upon first use, it will cause an acute spike in aldosterone and water retention. However, if you're unlucky enough that symptoms persist long-term, mineralocorticoid receptor expression will down-regulate and eventually the overall rate of synthesis of aldosterone will be reduced.

Where a normally functioning body will have a flow from:

steroidogenesis >>> metabolism to active steroid within tissues >>> metabolism to inactivated steroid >>> metabolism to another intermediate inactive steroid or glucuronidated for elimination from the body

finasteride will disrupt that flow and cause stagnation of metabolic throughput. Hormones which are precursors to 5a-reduced metabolites will "pool" and build in concentration, fooling doctors that don't understand this into believing that, for example, "you can't be hypoandrogenic because your testosterone is normal or even high". The reality is that steroidogenesis has significantly slowed and metabolism has also significantly slowed... nothing is happening. Imagine putting an instrument at any location in a huge lake to detect water molecules. Now imagine putting one of those instruments in a river. Which detector senses more water molecules? Put a "detector" in any tissue in the body that expresses 5AR. Your body on fin is like the lake... Stagnant. No movement of water. Very little new water added and very little water that leaves. A normally functioning body is like the river. There's a constant flow of new, fresh water and that water travels many paths before reaching it's final destination before evaporation/disposal (elimination).

Finasteride breaks a bunch of feedback loops and essentially causes a subclinical form of hypogonadism. Fin will cause androgen receptor overexpression due to the lack of androgenic stimulation that would normally occur with DHT binding the AR. Serum DHT means nothing. If you want to know how much androgenic activity you're losing by taking finasteride, measure metabolites of DHT. Like estradiol, DHT is meant to do its work in a black box (within the cell.. within tissues) so that its effects are mostly isolated from the system as a whole. Testosterone (or other prohormonal androgens) travel through the blood, make it to the cell of specific tissues, get metabolized by 5AR or aromatase within the cell, bind nuclear receptors and cause gene expression, are further metabolized and then released as inactive metabolites back into the extracellular space where they are eventually further metabolized and eliminated from the body or recycled.

the "lol you take tranny pills" argument doesn't give justice to how bad finasteride is,

Agreed. I would actually rather take an AA and estradiol than finasteride if someone put a gun to my head. The problem with finasteride is how profoundly it disturbs feedback loops that regulate steroidogenesis. At least with an AA, even though you're blocking androgenic activity, it actually positively regulates steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus. Finasteride disturbs every major feedback axis between the hypothalamus and pituitary. It screws up thyroid feedback, gonadal feedback, adrenal feedback.

Finasteride has its place in the lab as a tool. It has no place in human beings. It is poison.

 

[Mister]

@ChemHead How did you recover from PFS the first time? And what are you doing now to recover again? Thanks

 

[ChemHead]

Forgot to mention, it's not just its effect on androgen metabolism that matters. It's every single tissue that expresses 5AR and requires 5a-reduced steroids, including neurosteroids like dihydrodeoxycorticosterone, dihydrocorticosterone, dihydrocortisol, and dihydroprogesterone for further metabolism by 3a-HSD into their tetrahydro- derivatives tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone (THDOC), tetrahydrocorticosterone, tetrahydrocortisol, and tetrahydropregnanolone (allopregnanolone), respectively.

Just one of the many reasons potent 5AR antagonists can cause serious anxiety, anhedonia, and depression or suicide.

 

[Riesensackteil]

It's not. I've had PFS multiple times, had one major recovery, and am currently going through recovery again for the final time. Finasteride will cause polyuria and chronic inability to retain moisture. Upon first use, it will cause an acute spike in aldosterone and water retention. However, if you're unlucky enough that symptoms persist long-term, mineralocorticoid receptor expression will down-regulate and eventually the overall rate of synthesis of aldosterone will be reduced.

Where a normally functioning body will have a flow from:

steroidogenesis >>> metabolism to active steroid within tissues >>> metabolism to inactivated steroid >>> metabolism to another intermediate inactive steroid or glucuronidated for elimination from the body

finasteride will disrupt that flow and cause stagnation of metabolic throughput. Hormones which are precursors to 5a-reduced metabolites will "pool" and build in concentration, fooling doctors that don't understand this into believing that, for example, "you can't be hypoandrogenic because your testosterone is normal or even high". The reality is that steroidogenesis has significantly slowed and metabolism has also significantly slowed... nothing is happening. Imagine putting an instrument at any location in a huge lake to detect water molecules. Now imagine putting one of those instruments in a river. Which detector senses more water molecules? Put a "detector" in any tissue in the body that expresses 5AR. Your body on fin is like the lake... Stagnant. No movement of water. Very little new water added and very little water that leaves. A normally functioning body is like the river. There's a constant flow of new, fresh water and that water travels many paths before reaching it's final destination before evaporation/disposal (elimination).

Finasteride breaks a bunch of feedback loops and essentially causes a subclinical form of hypogonadism. Fin will cause androgen receptor overexpression due to the lack of androgenic stimulation that would normally occur with DHT binding the AR. Serum DHT means nothing. If you want to know how much androgenic activity you're losing by taking finasteride, measure metabolites of DHT. Like estradiol, DHT is meant to do its work in a black box (within the cell.. within tissues) so that its effects are mostly isolated from the system as a whole. Testosterone (or other prohormonal androgens) travel through the blood, make it to the cell of specific tissues, get metabolized by 5AR or aromatase within the cell, bind nuclear receptors and cause gene expression, are further metabolized and then released as inactive metabolites back into the extracellular space where they are eventually further metabolized and eliminated from the body or recycled.

... might be so useful in regards to balding. I am aware of finasteride's problems.
You must have mistaken me but I will expand on my argument:
The renin-aldosterone-angiotensin system seems to be tightly knit into the problem of balding and if we assume that hydrogenated versions of hormones are usually more potent, then finasteride might influence that system negatively, which is good. Otherwise we could not clearly explain why finasteride works for balding in many people, excluding the DHT Hypothesis.

Salt restriction can cause aldosterone to increase, and excess aldosterone causes potassium loss, and increases the use of protein to form ammonia. Aldosterone causes cells to take up sodium, while increasing their pH, i.e., raising their alkalinity. Intracellular sodium has long been known to be a factor, along with swelling and alkalinity, in stimulating cell division.
Progesterone also helps to reduce these hormones (in a healthy way).

thread for further investigation why RAAS could explain the benefits of finasteride in balding men.

RENIN-ANGIOTENSIN-ALDOSTERONE SYSYTEM And HAIR LOSS PROCESS

I think excess cortisol-aldosterone- mineralocorticoid activation trough angiotensin system are main players in balding by cytokine activation and progressing to fibrosis. Focusing on TGF-β₁, which shuts off the anagen phase of the hair cycle, and 11β-HSD₁ expression should fix to the problem...

raypeatforum.com

 

[tankasnowgod]

Yeah, but I know many people who have taken it without significant side effects and with good results so I am not sure if the cons are more significant than the pros.

Good results? For what?

If you aren't transitioning, and you aren't worried about an enlarged prostate (both of which are more serious issues), the only thing left is to slow hair loss. Not regrow hair, but slow the rate at which you are losing it. That doesn't sound like much of a benefit (especially when there are much safer and cheaper things to try listed on the forum, from things like increasing gelatin or glycine intake, to experimenting with progesterone and such). And even being bald (or balding) is not a serious or terrible condition for a man. Even in things like movies, TV shows, and fashion magazines, there are plenty of bald men that are shown to be attractive and charismatic.

For that benefit of "slower hair loss," you are risking changing your gender, and long term, serious depression (among other things). Sure, maybe those things won't happen, and maybe they didn't happen to those you know (or some of the longer term sides haven't manifested yet), but do you really think this is worth it?

And if you think it is, why are you even on this forum? The idea of taking a 5AR inhibitor to slow hair loss or for prostate issues is antithetical to the core principles that Peat talks about. If you aren't interested in these principles or don't believe in them, you can just follow mainstream advice. There are plenty of people that take 5AR inhibitors, statins, Covid "vaccines," eat soy and whole grains, and load up on PUFA.

 

[Lee Simeon]

Good results? For what?

If you aren't transitioning, and you aren't worried about an enlarged prostate (both of which are more serious issues), the only thing left is to slow hair loss. Not regrow hair, but slow the rate at which you are losing it. That doesn't sound like much of a benefit (especially when there are much safer and cheaper things to try listed on the forum, from things like increasing gelatin or glycine intake, to experimenting with progesterone and such). And even being bald (or balding) is not a serious or terrible condition for a man. Even in things like movies, TV shows, and fashion magazines, there are plenty of bald men that are shown to be attractive and charismatic.

For that benefit of "slower hair loss," you are risking changing your gender, and long term, serious depression (among other things). Sure, maybe those things won't happen, and maybe they didn't happen to those you know (or some of the longer term sides haven't manifested yet), but do you really think this is worth it?

And if you think it is, why are you even on this forum? The idea of taking a 5AR inhibitor to slow hair loss or for prostate issues is antithetical to the core principles that Peat talks about. If you aren't interested in these principles or don't believe in them, you can just follow mainstream advice. There are plenty of people that take 5AR inhibitors, statins, Covid "vaccines," eat soy and whole grains, and load up on PUFA.

Good results for getting hair. Have been peating since 2016 so have been eating very low PUFA for years and have been eating gelatin daily since 2018.

 

[Jayvee]

Good results for getting hair. Have been peating since 2016 so have been eating very low PUFA for years and have been eating gelatin daily since 2018.

I think a common misconception is that it only happens to a minority of people but anything that can cause such severe long lasting symptoms isn't doing good to even the "unaffected". If hair regrowth is the aim then I would seriously consider a different route

 

[Lee Simeon]

I think a common misconception is that it only happens to a minority of people but anything that can cause such severe long lasting symptoms isn't doing good to even the "unaffected". If hair regrowth is the aim then I would seriously consider a different route

What would a different route look like to you?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Good results for getting hair.

But, again, finasteride doesn't promise "getting" hair, only a slowing of the rate of loss.

Have been peating since 2016 so have been eating very low PUFA for years and have been eating gelatin daily since 2018.

So now you're willing to just throw all of Peat's principles in the garbage, huh?

Okay, so you have been eating gelatin "everyday." How much? 1 or 2 grams? 5 grams? 10? 30? 50% of your protein intake?

If you are experiencing hair loss (or thinning), maybe it would be worthwhile to play around with higher doses of said gelatin, or trying to maximize something like the glycine to methionine ratio, before casually experimenting with a very dangerous prescription drug. Especially one that has shown long term side effects, and made many men beyond miserable, creating suicidal thoughts, and having some men actually follow through with that act-

Finasteride and Suicide: A Postmarketing Case Series - PubMed

Men under the age of 40 who use finasteride for alopecia are at risk for suicide if they develop persistent sexual adverse effects and insomnia. Further research is needed to establish whether finasteride has a causal relationship to suicide.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View: https://elemental.medium.com/my-life-has-been-ruined-by-an-anti-baldness-propecia-finasteride-side-effects-ed8b2fcd1e90

 

[Lee Simeon]

But, again, finasteride doesn't promise "getting" hair, only a slowing of the rate of loss.

So now you're willing to just throw all of Peat's principles in the garbage, huh?

Okay, so you have been eating gelatin "everyday." How much? 1 or 2 grams? 5 grams? 10? 30? 50% of your protein intake?

If you are experiencing hair loss (or thinning), maybe it would be worthwhile to play around with higher doses of said gelatin, or trying to maximize something like the glycine to methionine ratio, before casually experimenting with a very dangerous prescription drug. Especially one that has shown long term side effects, and made many men beyond miserable, creating suicidal thoughts, and having some men actually follow through with that act-

Finasteride and Suicide: A Postmarketing Case Series - PubMed

Men under the age of 40 who use finasteride for alopecia are at risk for suicide if they develop persistent sexual adverse effects and insomnia. Further research is needed to establish whether finasteride has a causal relationship to suicide.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View: https://elemental.medium.com/my-life-has-been-ruined-by-an-anti-baldness-propecia-finasteride-side-effects-ed8b2fcd1e90

250 - 500 ml every day and I imagine its around 20-40 % of total protein, but not sure since I drink a lot of milk. I am not saying I am willing to throw it all in the garbage I am just wanting to know how bad is it considering I know several people taking it with no significant side effects and good results. I dont think I will start it, but it seems like the drug route is the only way that really works and that makes me upset.