Honey Headache

[EIRE24]

acne / rosacea
I used it in combination with vit a, zinc and magnesium + topical niacinamide.


I started weightlifting + eating more and have gained a lot of muscle mass over the last 2 years. This helped greatly with all kinds of problems I had.
Other than that I just avoid eating large amounts of fructose in one sitting (getting most of my carbs from potatoes) and don't eat fast digesting sugars like honey or fruit juices on an empty stomach, only together with a full meal.
Edit: Balancing the honey with bee pollen also helped a lot. Just a tsp for every tblsp of honey prevents headaches for me. Don't ask my why though, no idea how that works...

How much vitamin A, mag, zinc and B6? I think these could help me also. You don't eat liver? Do you take thyroid?

 

[squanch]

How much vitamin A, mag, zinc and B6? I think these could help me also. You don't eat liver? Do you take thyroid?

I get my vit a from liver, no supplement (~150 g / week)
Zinc mainly from oysters + occasional 15 mg zinc picolinate
B6 (P5P) 5 mg / day
Magnesium (bicarbonate + chloride) ~500 mg / day
Niacinamide spray with a 5% niacinamide solution in water on my face after showering

I do take NDT during the winter

 

[EIRE24]

I get my vit a from liver, no supplement (~150 g / week)
Zinc mainly from oysters + occasional 15 mg zinc picolinate
B6 (P5P) 5 mg / day
Magnesium (bicarbonate + chloride) ~500 mg / day
Niacinamide spray with a 5% niacinamide solution in water on my face after showering

I do take NDT during the winter

Thank you

 

[squanch]

I just wanted to give a small update for anyone with the same problem in the future who finds this thread:
I completely fixed the problem by eating bee pollen. I have absolutely no idea why, but consuming large amounts of honey without bee pollen caused this problem for me. There are a lot of unidentified compounds in honey, so who knows...
I would suggest to anyone who wants to try eating larger amounts of honey daily to also eat some bee pollen together with it.

 

[CLASH]

@squanch
From my reading and experience Apples contain high amounts of sorbitol that can be fermented by bacteria as we cant absorb it, and honey, depending on the variety, contains high amounts of fructoligosaccharides that we also cant absorb/ digest leaving fodder for the microbes. Also, honey has a high fructose to glucose ratio. Most people, from what I have read and seen, cant digest more than 25g of fructose in excess of glucose, a 1:1 ratio or higher in favor of glucose is more ideal for most people. Other fruit contains high amount of pectin, and oligosaccharides depending on the fruit that can cause issues for people as well due to fermentation by microbes. Did you ever try dissolving sucrose in water and just using that? I doubt that would cause issues unless you developed SIBO high up in the GI tract. I think the pollen may have helped due to some sort of antibiotic action and/or some type of fiber action effecting the growth of Particular bacteria. I too had issues with honey and most fruit, i solved it by looking at the glucose:fructose ratios of fruits and foods and also by looking at fermentable substrate. Hope this helps.

 

[Amazoniac]

The Small Intestine Converts Dietary Fructose Into Glucose And Organic Acids

"A key difference between the health effects of fiber-rich fruits (and perhaps even solid sweets like cake) and juices/sodas is their rate of intestinal fructose release. Based on our findings, although we did not directly modulate fructose delivery rate, it is likely that the appearance rate of free fructose in the small intestine plays a critical role in dictating its metabolic fate: like the lower doses in our experiments, a slower rate of fructose appearance will result in more complete intestinal fructose clearance, whereas higher doses and faster rates result in fructose overflow to the liver."

 

[squanch]

I honestly don't know what really happened. The only thing I can say is that I never developed the problem with other sources of sugar in the same quantity. White sugar, apple juice, soda etc for several years. Definitely a high fructose:glucose ratio (apple juice) and large amounts of free fructose in one sitting. Never any problem (not saying it's necessarily a healthy thing to do, it just didn't cause the headaches)
It only started after eating large amounts of honey daily for several weeks. After that, it seemed like I wasn't really able to properly utilize sugar from any sources anymore without getting intense headaches all day long.
I feel like there's something specifically in honey that caused this. I really have no idea what. I also don't know why bee pollen would "heal" it. It kind of makes sense though, since honey and bee pollen are intended by nature to be consumed together.

 

[michael94]

@squanch
From my reading and experience Apples contain high amounts of sorbitol that can be fermented by bacteria as we cant absorb it, and honey, depending on the variety, contains high amounts of fructoligosaccharides that we also cant absorb/ digest leaving fodder for the microbes. Also, honey has a high fructose to glucose ratio. Most people, from what I have read and seen, cant digest more than 25g of fructose in excess of glucose, a 1:1 ratio or higher in favor of glucose is more ideal for most people. Other fruit contains high amount of pectin, and oligosaccharides depending on the fruit that can cause issues for people as well due to fermentation by microbes. Did you ever try dissolving sucrose in water and just using that? I doubt that would cause issues unless you developed SIBO high up in the GI tract. I think the pollen may have helped due to some sort of antibiotic action and/or some type of fiber action effecting the growth of Particular bacteria. I too had issues with honey and most fruit, i solved it by looking at the glucose:fructose ratios of fruits and foods and also by looking at fermentable substrate. Hope this helps.

Apple has around 4% sorbitol and very little sucrose or glucose, mostly fructose although it seems to depend on ripeness. I think you are being unfair to sorbitol, its not an enemy.

the sweetener attached is made from apple juice and shows the values

 

[CLASH]

@michael94
Even though apples only have 4% sorbitol, I think the amount is relative to other fruits which have none as well as to the amount that may cause issues in humans. The higher fructose to glucose ratio of apples is exactly why they cause issues in people in my experience and reading. If your interested heres some articles I’ve read on this stuff. Apples wreck me :/
Sorbitol intolerance in adults. - PubMed - NCBI

Sorbitol intolerance: an unappreciated cause of functional gastrointestinal complaints. - PubMed - NCBI

Fructose- and sorbitol-reduced diet improves mood and gastrointestinal disturbances in fructose malabsorbers. - PubMed - NCBI


Carbohydrate malabsorption in patients with non-specific abdominal complaints
“Congenital and acquired deficiencies are recognized. An important aspect is that the presence of glucose stimulates GLUT-5 activity, while sorbitol blocks it[9]. These data from animal intestinal perfusion tests (in most cases rat jejunum) confirm previous clinical and experimental data, which show that addition of glucose to fructose in patients known to have fructose malabsorption can prevent malabsorption, and suppress the occurrence of the accompanying symptoms. In contrast, the presence of sorbitol may aggravate malabsorption and the symptoms[13-17]. “

 

[jet9]

I just wanted to give a small update for anyone with the same problem in the future who finds this thread:
I completely fixed the problem by eating bee pollen. I have absolutely no idea why, but consuming large amounts of honey without bee pollen caused this problem for me. There are a lot of unidentified compounds in honey, so who knows...
I would suggest to anyone who wants to try eating larger amounts of honey daily to also eat some bee pollen together with it.

squanch, hi
Could you tell what brand and dosages of bee pollen are you using ?

 

[Xemnoraq]

I did a little experiment a few months ago where I ate large amounts of honey (250g) on top of my already high fruit intake.

Never had any problems with fruit or honey before, but after a few weeks of consuming those large amounts of honey I started getting pretty bad headaches and generally feeling very tired and spaced out.
Stopped the honey and most other sugar sources and it went away.

Now my problems is, while I could eat around 100g of honey before my experiment without any problems, I can't even handle 1 tbsp now without getting a headache. The same thing happens when I eat a bowl of apple sauce.
Small amounts of other fruits seem to be ok. Starch does not give me any problems.
EDIT: all refined/low nutrient carbs seem to be problematic

I have switched most of the sugar with starch (potatoes) and am doing ok, but would like to eat a higher fruit/honey diet in the future again (want to gain some weight, a lot easier to do with simple sugars)

Does anyone know what happened here?
To much fructose to handle for me at the moment? High triglycerides? Did I **** up my liver?

I will get a blood test done next week, does anyone have any suggestions until then?

I don't take thyroid at the moment, but still have a bottle of ndt here. Might try that after the blood test and see if it helps.

Hi! I just wanted to say ive experienced very similar issues, ive eaten quantities of 500g of honey in one sitting before and i always get extremely sick after my gut gets messed up my skin gets hardened and calcified and i get acne,

From what i understand as the potential causes is i think honey has become a really dirty allergenic food, honey is known to be a source for testing world pollution because alot of honeys have shown to have large amounts of pesticide and heavy metal contamination from the flowers they were harvested from, its known bees also have a high concentration of aluminum in them which has really been messing up their species,

Another possible issue ive looked into is botulism and infectious spores in honey, allthough honey has antimicrobial properties, some honey is shown to be contaminated with yeasts and spores, mold, aflatoxin etc.

I have personally stayed away from honey now due to those reasons

 

[boris]

Exact same thing as @squanch happened to me. I think it's partly like @JackHanma says vitamin/mineral imbalance because of too much empty calories.

The weird thing is that after the headaches started, just one spoon of honey was enough trigger them again.

It was good local organic honey. Still could have pesticide traces from neighbouring fields.

 

[Xemnoraq]

Exact same thing as @squanch happened to me. I think it's partly like @JackHanma says vitamin/mineral imbalance because of too much empty calories.

The weird thing is that after the headaches started, just one spoon of honey was enough trigger them again.

It was good local organic honey. Still could have pesticide traces from neighbouring fields.

Forsure even if its local its becoming to difficult and risky to trust foods like honey and even maple syrup something thats very natural and local to where i live is known to be harshly contaminated with lead, its difficult because even though honey itself is a healthy food it goes through some processing as well and sometimes that processing can lead to impurities, its tough so its the same for me 1tbsp gives me a headache too, and i think with honey personally im mostly concerned about bacterial endospores, so instead ive been doing plain white sugar for a while, Peat said it tends to be the least allergenic and most pure ironically despite what people say about it, i am still concerned about white sugar though and always curious if theres any impurities in it like heavy metals etc but i haven’t been able to find much evidence suggesting so.

 

[boris]

For me the headaches thankfully stopped a short while after stopping the big quantities of honey. I can eat regular amounts without problems now.

 

[boris]

[...], so instead ive been doing plain white sugar for a while, Peat said it tends to be the least allergenic and most pure ironically despite what people say about it, i am still concerned about white sugar though and always curious if theres any impurities in it like heavy metals etc but i haven’t been able to find much evidence suggesting so.

Maybe this interests you.

Dr. Ray Peat - A Plethora of Wide Ranging Questions for The Good Doctor - October 15, 2019 - One Radio Network
@30:00 Peat talking about sugar processing
@37:00 Peat talking about sugar from low deuterium zones being superior

 

[Xemnoraq]

Maybe this interests you.

Dr. Ray Peat - A Plethora of Wide Ranging Questions for The Good Doctor - October 15, 2019 - One Radio Network
@30:00 Peat talking about sugar processing
@37:00 Peat talking about sugar from low deuterium zones being superior

Wow this is great im gonna check that out right now thankyou!!!

 

[papaya]

maybe eating honey with the honeycomb would help. i've heard that honeycomb (beeswax) cleanses & detoxes the digestive tract

 

[Cloudhands]

@squanch any update? Im thinking about trying this myself :)

 

[Aymen]

For me the headaches thankfully stopped a short while after stopping the big quantities of honey. I can eat regular amounts without problems now.

this happened me to too, light honey has less allergy than the darker one but maybe the darker one has more benefits.

 

[Gone Peating]

Hi! I just wanted to say ive experienced very similar issues, ive eaten quantities of 500g of honey in one sitting before and i always get extremely sick after my gut gets messed up my skin gets hardened and calcified and i get acne,

From what i understand as the potential causes is i think honey has become a really dirty allergenic food, honey is known to be a source for testing world pollution because alot of honeys have shown to have large amounts of pesticide and heavy metal contamination from the flowers they were harvested from, its known bees also have a high concentration of aluminum in them which has really been messing up their species,

Another possible issue ive looked into is botulism and infectious spores in honey, allthough honey has antimicrobial properties, some honey is shown to be contaminated with yeasts and spores, mold, aflatoxin etc.

I have personally stayed away from honey now due to those reasons

Are you being serious? A pound of honey in one go?!!!

It’s not the honey lol