Homocysteine Never Goes Down

OP
gilson dantas

gilson dantas

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
308
Location
Brasília/Brazil
Oranges I use everyday; very juicy; 1 kg = U$ 0,3; laranja 20161210_184714.jpg
 

Koveras

Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
720
x
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2016-12-30 at 8.27.03 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-12-30 at 8.27.03 PM.png
    18 KB · Views: 78
Last edited:

Ella

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
646
Reduce the starting substrate which is methionine. Eggs and chicken. The food for chickens must be supplemented with methionine to keep chickens healthy. The synthetic methionine is not efficiently metabolised by chickens and is toxic to humans that eat the eggs and meat. The organic growers have been trying to find a source of a natural methionine for some time now. The product has only just become available but time will tell if chooks do well on it and the costs are not prohibitive for the grower. I feed my chooks flies, insects, meat and prawn heads so it is not an issue for my ladies. On a commercial scale harder to control nutrient intake and methionine for chooks is the limiting nutrient. Chickens are carnivores - they love their worms, snails and insects, however, the thought of feeding meat to chickens would be abhorrent to many consumers. How much animal foods do you have in your diet?
 
OP
gilson dantas

gilson dantas

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
308
Location
Brasília/Brazil
@Ella, I use, animal foods: 10 yolks [huggy egg] by week. And shrimp once, liver [cow] once, ox gelatin everyday, meat once by week. And cheese everyday.
I don´t use chicken. What do you thing? And I follow a diet on Ray Peat logic as much as possible [OJ everyday etc etc].
And really, homocysteine is a stuff that I cannot undestand why never ever fall down.
 

Ella

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
646
10 yolks [huggy egg] by week

I don't know about huggy eggs. What I do know is that even organic eggs or whatever, are supplemented with synthetic methionine. No good for chooks as they can't process it properly and especially not good for humans who are also unable to use it like natural methionine which is high in animal protein. It has only been recent, that the process to extract natural methionine from herbs has become available. I don't know if it is being used commercially, as last time I checked the processing plant for extraction in India was still under construction. It needs to undergo trials and still, it needs to remain competitive against the current synthetic form for growers to be encouraged to swap over. Unless you are prepared to pay more money than you are currently paying, only then will farmers swap over. I know if it is too expensive, we will just keep hearing stories that the synthetic version is not a problem. We know it's is all about profit at the end of the day. However, if you prepared to pay more then you will see how quickly the story changes.

How high is Hmcy anyway? If too high then reduce eggs first. You are getting plenty nutrients in liver anyway. Liver contains all the nutrients to deal with Hmcy- B12, folate etc. It also contains methionine but I would start with the egg yolks - Perhaps reduce to 3 - 4 a week and see what happens. you also have low ceruloplasmin so perhaps there are other issues (liver and adrenal glands) mineral deficiencies, toxicities that you are dealing with. The copper issue is something I would take seriously and investigate. A hair mineral analysis to get a good overview on other minerals combined with RBC testing. Serum tells us nothing. You need to look closer at your zinc and copper balance. Do not supplement with zinc. You need to first investigate, as low CP most times signals low copper but we have seen in the literature that this is not always the case. So tread carefully, because zinc supplementation is fraught with problems especially when it comes to prostate cancer in men. How long have you been doing liver?

And I follow a diet on Ray Peat logic as much as possible [OJ everyday etc etc].

Ray Peat talks about the benefits and stabilising effects of certain foods in comparison to the less ideal, but we must always look at the individual and adjust accordingly. What is medicine for one can be poison for another. As they say, it is all about context. Hmcy is a neurotoxin, if you have plenty of folate in the diet and you have good levels of B12, the easiest way to stop the increase of Hmcy is to stop it at its source and that is the food you are eating that are high in methionine and worst foods that contain the synthetic form that humans can't use and if liver is experiencing stress and under functioning then this form is even more problematic.

Best,
 
OP
gilson dantas

gilson dantas

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
308
Location
Brasília/Brazil
OK @Ella, good points.
the easiest way to stop the increase of Hmcy is to stop it at its source and that is the food you are eating that are high in methionine
Yes. And the source is methionine. And one of the suspects is eggs. It is a good idea discontinue eggs for a while. And for it, I must to suppose that liver replaces yoks completely. Is it true? I´am not sure [and I´m not talking about B complex].
My homocysteine is 14. And progesterone 0,56. And TSH 0,34, PTH 32,2.
But I´m wondering: perhaps homocysteine only will fall when my thyroid become normal, it is not true?
I have no Achilles reflex. And my temperature never goes up, stills 36,4 to 36,6, even I using one grain of NDT by day, and pregnenolone 40 mg by day.
So, the real problem [the mother of all problems including homocysteine] it is not the thyroid??
 

Ella

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
646
must to suppose that liver replaces yoks completely. Is it true? I´am not sure [and I´m not talking about B complex].

Liver completely replaces egg yolks. Liver has everything to make other nutrients work, especially homocysteine. The iron is problematic, but coffee will take care of it. There is something strange going on with your copper and CP, so this needs further investigating. Liver provides plenty folate and B12 and other vitamins that influence hmcy. Are you eating lots of fruits and leafy greens? Have you checked B12?? Be sure to check Active B12 also as serum tells us nothing. Methylmalonic acid can be misleading if you calorie restricting, for the same reasons for RT3. If B12 is OK in the serum, then stomach acid OK - check active to see if you are converting. If not something is missing.

homocysteine only will fall when my thyroid become normal, it is not true?

Look at other foods that are high in methionine and restrict these along with the eggs and see what happens. Should not be so hard to bring down from 14.

Supplementing with thyroid may not work because there may be other obstacles preventing conversion or entering in the cells.

A Reverse T3 will provide information whether the body is experiencing stress, nutrient deficiencies, toxicities, inadequate calories, over-exercising or just plain old worries. Inflammation from toxic metals, pathogens???? Copper dysregulation???

So, the real problem [the mother of all problems including homocysteine] it is not the thyroid??

Thyroid is part of the problem, and thyroid will not improve unless you remove all the obstacles which are many. Pufas and inflammatory amino acids like methionine and making sure you have the right minerals in place and more importantly in the correct balance to each other.

As Peat says, you need good liver function and if liver is clogged with pufas and toxic metals like iron, copper etc, then thyroid will not improve.

Remember, if you ramp up metabolism, your need to support it :)

I think Ray mentions in one of the KMUD interviews on how many eggs he eats and it is not that many. I think for some conditions raw egg yolks would be highly beneficial for some people, while for others, I think less is best.
 
OP
gilson dantas

gilson dantas

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
308
Location
Brasília/Brazil
Are you eating lots of fruits and leafy greens?
Yes, I eat lots of OJ. But, in Peat´s perspective, why should I eat "lots of leafy greens"?
I eat cabbage butter [boiled in water; strained].
There is something strange going on with your copper and CP,
Yes. Cupper stills between 81-90 [normal 85-170]; I eat shrimp every week, besides liver. And nothing changes with cupper. Perhaps it will not change while DHEA stills low, very low. I´m trying to fix thyroid, then I hope DHEA move up. What do you thing of it?
[I don´t use zinc; my T3-R is low, 1,7; my B12 is 751; and I am trying to increase mi D3, which is 32,2, low for a person with prostate tumor]
I will stop to eat yoks by 3 weeks and see.
 

Ella

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
646
Yes, I eat lots of OJ. But, in Peat´s perspective, why should I eat "lots of leafy greens"?
I eat cabbage butter [boiled in water; strained].

Yes. Cupper stills between 81-90 [normal 85-170]; I eat shrimp every week, besides liver. And nothing changes with cupper. Perhaps it will not change while DHEA stills low, very low. I´m trying to fix thyroid, then I hope DHEA move up. What do you thing of it?
[I don´t use zinc; my T3-R is low, 1,7; my B12 is 751; and I am trying to increase mi D3, which is 32,2, low for a person with prostate tumor]
I will stop to eat yoks by 3 weeks and see.

Leafy greens - I think Ray sees them as superior to other vegetables, in that you can make extracts of magnesium and other minerals. I would stick with organic leafy greens due to tumours. The concern is for those individuals that have slow gut motility and suffer constipation. Still, Ray prefers not to eat them. They are not an issue for me, I love leafy greens but I don't go overboard on them either. I know many people do not feel good even with the broth and this may be for various reasons.

Prostate tumor may explain copper and CP. tumour loves to sequester copper. Do a search pubmed for copper ceruloplasmin and prostate cancer. If you have unbound copper, the OJ, vitamin c, fruits and sugar will be good. Do the hair analysis and this will guide you as will ferritin levels, iron studies and haematology. Need to look at complete picture and yes how much estrogen????

I could speculate on what is happening but it is best to research further. Links to how copper is being used to fight the tumour.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141015084514.htm

This is another good reason to keep methionine low in the diet along with glutamine. You should monitor tumour markers, to see what happens when you remove egg yolks and other inflammatory amino acids. Gelatin will be excellent for you.

Is that RT3 1.7, the ratio of T3/RT3?? If not, what units is rt3 in? If you are not seeing benefits from thyroid, you should continue using to bring all markers up to good range. Follow a good diet that is appropriate for your state of health. What is good for one may not be good for all.

I was involved many years ago in cancer treatments and therapies. I worked with very interesting practitioners. As a patient advocate, I was educating men of the insanity of anti-androgen/hormone suppression therapy for prostrate. It is difficult battling against oncologists and urologist who are specialists in this field. What they are allowed to do is tightly regulated, so you can't blame them. I think everyone now should be aware that testosterone is not the problem; low testosterone is.

I was following Morgentaler's work - a brave pioneer. I could not understand why the oncologists and urologists were not following this research when they lost patient after patient on their radiation and anti-androgen therapy. Today I do understand because I have now a better understanding of the whole industrial medical system. In those early years, it was very hard to convince these men that their oncologists had it wrong and no matter how much research I presented they still chose their oncologist's tools, radiation and anti-androgen therapy and last resort chemotherapy. I never saw a single man survive this treatment and when the patient was dying, he would tell the family to call for me. What on earth could I do - only a miracle and I knew even my prays were useless. I came to the resolution that perhaps removal of the prostate would have been a better option for these men. I saw many men that had surgery did not die. I pursued other less invasive methods to deal with tumours, however in my country, it is very difficult if not impossible to do alternative cancer therapies. I would need to go to India or China. So I decided not want to work with cancer therapies any longer because it was not a rewarding pursuit. I know practitioners who understand the aetiology in depth and control their own tumour without progression for decades.

As for testosterone therapy. I attend workshops and conferences and the general consensus with testo therapy is to always check psa and if there is any doubt or risk, don't do testosterone for these men. Risk of being sued is too high.



A Harvard expert shares his thoughts on testosterone-replacement therapy - Harvard Prostate Knowledge

Here is the latest findings on testo and prostate tumour.

Testosterone Therapy in Men with Prostate Cancer – new research - Nebido - Testosterone Undecanoate

I suggest to bring up testosterone via diet and lifestyle - exercise using large muscles - thighs and arms if you are able. Pregnenolone will help with stamina. Pufas completely out of diet. Pufas will make tumour grow rapidly. Oyster and shellfish high in cholesterol and other beneficial minerals. Using pregnenolone and lots of sugar, lots of sunshine and muscles work, I have seen testosterone come up beautifully very quickly.

I don't use DHEA. I am not up to date with the research for prostate cancer. I am more familiar with testosterone and prostate and even here you need to know what you are doing. You need to speak with the specialists treating prostate cancer with testosterone. I think with the recent research, more will be encouraged to be brave. Still proceed with caution.

Man 'cured' of prostate cancer after doctors shock tumour to death with testosterone

You need to be following your hormones and tumour markers very carefully. I recommend the DUTCH test as this will give breakdown metabolites of all hormones including adrenal hormones also. You are lucky today, you have these tests available. In the dark ages, we had very little to guide us. You need to look at the whole picture and not just markers in isolation.

DHEA metabolism in prostate: For better or worse?
Androgen receptor or estrogen receptor-beta blockade alters DHEA-, DHT-, and E(2)-induced proliferation and PSA production in human prostate cancer... - PubMed - NCBI

best,
 
OP
gilson dantas

gilson dantas

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
308
Location
Brasília/Brazil
@Ella, I loved the clinical and medical informations and thoughts you gave to me, about prostate cancer, testosterone, and I agree totally with your analysis perspective. Thank you!!!!!
 
OP
gilson dantas

gilson dantas

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
308
Location
Brasília/Brazil
1 - Now, let me say something [I think it will help us to know each other perspectives better etc]:
I have a prostate tumor but I NEVER will do chemo, radiotherapy or hormonal blockage; even surgery: I am triying to heal myself with physiological methods, never with antiphysiological stuff. Even biopsy, I do not want, because I don´t want to spread nothing bad.
Oncologists and urologists: my experience with those professionals is bad: they seems to my like autists, deafs, heartless or something worse; they hate scientific papers that question the foolish things they have learned with their bibles [wroten by the cancer industry etc], they are selfish and [I am sorry if this bothers you]: they kill people.
I am studying R Peat for 10 months or more and for me this is sound science, this is nutritional physiology, I mean, it is a scientifical totalizing perspective I was searchin all over my life.
2 - Yes, your thoughts about cupper: I liked very much. I will work on it. If you have any idea or paper on this issue, I will like to know it.
It is real: on those years of tumor, cupper NEVER goes down. Ceruloplasmine too. And DHEA do not goes up. And thyroid stills low. I think those are connected things.
3 - I use gelatin daily [I manufacture it at home, weekly from cow foot].
4 -My ferritine is ok, 30. And my D3 is low, 33 [I am supplementing D3, because that worries me]
5 - Since you talked to me, I do not eat eggs.
6 - RT3 is 0,17 when T3 is 122. [I cant see now the units, if are equal].
7 -
Oyster and shellfish high in cholesterol and other beneficial minerals. Using pregnenolone and lots of sugar, lots of sunshine and muscles work, I have seen testosterone come up beautifully very quickly.
I´ll try to find oyster. I do not use, anyway, unsaturated oils since I knew R Peat work. Y use 40 mg of pregnenolone but I do not see results [progesterone still low and prolactine very high, which means estrogenization].I use lots of OJ, sunshine, but I do few muscles work.
8 - I do not want to use DHEA or testosterone. I use to be very cautious wich hormones. And do not see, not here on Brazil, expertise on hormonal stuff.
9 - And thank you!
PS- I heard this week about avocado seed [liquefied with water] to heal prostatism [prostate urinary simptoms: my problem]; did you heard about it?
 

Raincoast

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2016
Messages
57
Just to add, I managed to elevate my homocysteine with high doses of niacinamide (3g/day) . TMG brought it back down within normal range quickly.
 

Texon

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
668
Very, very interesting @paymanz
I think 40 mg/day then.
@haidut ...what do you think about mildronate as a methyl donor since it has 3 methyl groups in its makeup? Just started 250 mgs X 1/day) a couple days ago. Too early to tell much yet. Very interesting to me how the Russians seem to have a fondness for multi methyl molecules (DMG, TMG, Mildronate, etc)..maybe others I have no idea about. Gilson, I have the same issue with homocysteine (about 12 right now but 15-16 not long ago), and TMG and low dose P5P form of b6 (5-10 mg per Haidut) have been very helpful for me. Have some labs to do on Wednesday so I'll post a few days after.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom