Histamine intolerance explained through a Ray Peat prism

[somuch4food]

Have you tried taking a high dose of the active form of B2? B2 is needed for MAO which will help histamine and other amines. It’s also extremely important for a lot of different enzymes and is needed to make the rest of the b vitamins work (b6,b12, folate etc), which can all contribute to improving histamine clearance and other food intolerances by helping the liver, gut, detoxification etc. I think a lot of people can be short on riboflavin because it’s conversion to the active form is hindered in hypothyroidism/adrenal insufficiency, so eating all the liver and milk will not help. There’s a huge thread on the Phoenix rising forum ‘b2 I love you’ which is super interesting.

also, problems with salicylates/phenols/oxalates indicate sulfur problems, possibly a lack of bio available sulfur, which molybdenum could help. Molybdenum is needed for making sulfur out of cysteine/methionine otherwise it will get fermented (which will produce ammonia), and that’s possibly why you do not do well with too much meat?

I too have been in the same boat as you and both b2 and molybdenum have been extremely helpful for me.

I have been burn by too many supplements. I am trying to first have a supportive diet. I agree with you on the riboflavin and sulfur deficiencies.

I'm reducing meat proteins to give a break on my system and dairy will provide much needed riboflavin. Meat is also high in phosphorus and low in calcium and low calcium promotes histamine according to the article above. Replacing meat with dairy has many advantages to my case.

The last thing dairy helps with is oxalates. The calcium in it binds to oxalates making them non absorbable. Oxalates can bind to the same receptors as sulfur and so a deficiency of sulfur can be caused by oxalates.

 

[Andy316]

If digestion isn't strong, then meat can cause problems with putrefaction for sure. Milk can cause putrefaction too though. Any source of protein can. The most important thing for lowering putrefaction is to avoid constipation. If the person eats meat and very little fiber or fermentable carbs and is constipated, then the bacteria will ferment all of the carbs/ fiber that were in the colon along with meat, and when they exhaust those fermentable things, they will go on to putrefying the remnants of the meat. The same thing can happen with milk. The lactose is very protective against putrefaction, but if the person drinks milk and their bowel transit is slow, then the lactose will be completely fermented in the colon, and the remnants of casein with be targeted by the bacteria, giving rise to phenol, indol, skatol etc. By increasing bowel frequency and ingesting some fiber and fermentable carbs, the bacteria will only have time to ferment the carbs/ fiber and before they can access the protein/ aminoacids in the colon, the organism will already have excreted those remnants( bowel movement).

"When A Turk's Bowels Move Less Than Three Times A Day, He Consults A Physician."

Autointoxication; or, Intestinal toxemia : Kellogg, John Harvey, 1852-1943 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive "Very few surgeons are yet convinced that the elimination of the colon from human beings would be an improvement on the Creator's handiword; and it is a notorious fact that...

raypeatforum.com

Agree on fibre. At the peak of my histamine intolerance I was eating huge amounts of meat (Fish, Chicken, lamb) without any fibre, resulted in severe constipation and anal fissure. Psyllium husk fixed constipation almost immediately. Once bowel movements became regular histamine issues were greatly resolved. If your protein digestion is impaired include fibre which agrees with you. Betaine HCL with pepsin never helped, but what allows me to eat meat without problems now is cooking them nicely in a pressure cooker. Dry cooked meats still give me histamine issues.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Agree on fibre. At the peak of my histamine intolerance I was eating huge amounts of meat (Fish, Chicken, lamb) without any fibre, resulted in severe constipation and anal fissure. Psyllium husk fixed constipation almost immediately. Once bowel movements became regular histamine issues were greatly resolved. If your protein digestion is impaired include fibre which agrees with you. Betaine HCL with pepsin never helped, but what allows me to eat meat without problems now is cooking them nicely in a pressure cooker. Dry cooked meats still give me histamine issues.

Thanks for sharing. Back when I was doing a stint of just meat and sugar, I was noticing bad signs too. It didn't make me constipated, but I was having only one bowel movement a day usually, and it was basically diarrhea, and it was obvious that there was some putrefaction happening there. My hair was shedding a lot during that time too, and I even got sick once after eating some apple sauce, which was likely due to messed up gut biome. I used to pressure cook my meat too. Made it way more digestible. Nowadays I eat only ground meat( beef and chicken) patties and I can digest them well as long as I take niacin( not niacinamide) right after the meal.

Do you still take the psyllium?

 

[somuch4food]

If digestion isn't strong, then meat can cause problems with putrefaction for sure. Milk can cause putrefaction too though. Any source of protein can. The most important thing for lowering putrefaction is to avoid constipation. If the person eats meat and very little fiber or fermentable carbs and is constipated, then the bacteria will ferment all of the carbs/ fiber that were in the colon along with meat, and when they exhaust those fermentable things, they will go on to putrefying the remnants of the meat. The same thing can happen with milk. The lactose is very protective against putrefaction, but if the person drinks milk and their bowel transit is slow, then the lactose will be completely fermented in the colon, and the remnants of casein with be targeted by the bacteria, giving rise to phenol, indol, skatol etc. By increasing bowel frequency and ingesting some fiber and fermentable carbs, the bacteria will only have time to ferment the carbs/ fiber and before they can access the protein/ aminoacids in the colon, the organism will already have excreted those remnants( bowel movement).

"When A Turk's Bowels Move Less Than Three Times A Day, He Consults A Physician."

Autointoxication; or, Intestinal toxemia : Kellogg, John Harvey, 1852-1943 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive "Very few surgeons are yet convinced that the elimination of the colon from human beings would be an improvement on the Creator's handiword; and it is a notorious fact that...

raypeatforum.com

I agree. I will make my meat based meals lower in carbs and higher in fibers.

The thing is my youngest child does not have a slow transit (about 24 hours), but probably has dysbiosis. Mixing low fiber carbs with meat that goes on undigested is probably a party to those gut pathogens.

I'm going hard on dairy because we are showing some signs of calcium deficiency. I know for sure that me and my oldest have issues with oxalates as can be seen in sandy stools. Oxalates can create a calcium deficiency and calcium deficiency is common in histadelics.

Vitamin K is probably also low and I will supplement with K2 occasionally.

 

[Andy316]

Thanks for shering. Back when I was doing a stint of just meat and sugar, I was noticing bad signs too. It didn't make me constipated, but I was having only one bowel movement a day usually, and it was basically diarrhea, and it was obvious that there was some putrefaction happening there. My hair was shedding a lot during that time too, and I even got sick once after eating some apple sauce, which was likely due to messed up gut biome. I used to pressure cook my meat too. Made it way more digestible. Nowadays I eat only ground meat( beef and chicken) patties and I can digest them well as long as I take niacin( not niacinamide) right after the meal.

Do you still take the psyllium?

Psyllium husk only occasionaly when I have constipation lasting more than 2 days. Maintenance I like to use some mushrooms (Beta Glucan) or Lima Beans with meat protein rich meals only.

 

[somuch4food]

After a discussion with some else, I realized I'm probably more prone to histapenia: Histapenia (Histamine Low)

I definitely don't do well on grains, beans and mostly vegetarian diet. My children seem to do well when eating chili (high proteins) or starch with lots of fat. Fruits alone tend to send them flying.

 

[Michael Mohn]

The text claims that saturated fat makes cholesterol. This is false, cholesterol is made from fructose but as cholesterol is the transport molecule for fats, consumption of long chain fatty acids increases cholesterol and animal fats come with some cholesterol too. There're other factors like infections and hypothyroidism that can increase cholesterol. There a lot of claims in that text that make me doubt but I don't want to spend too much time on it. I would just caution you to not base your strategy solely on this text.

On another note I have some symptoms like knee pains, around the tendons, eczema on my hands and a bit of a bloated belly. Anti histamines help in the short term. Recently I started to crave raw meat again. I ate a raw food diet for a long time with raw seafood, eggs and aged meat but under Peat influence I ate a lot of cooked foods. The last days I ate raw lamb shank and I felt a sudden improvement, more strength and energy, flatter belly, less knee pain. I wonder if raw meat has a beneficial influence on the immune response to food and overall inflammatory conditions. Just an idea.

 

[lampofred]

I wouldn't fully trust the article on histapenia/low histamine. It doesn't seem focused, more like a blogger trying to type as much text on as many links as possible to make money off of ads. Lower back pain, insatiable hunger, insomnia are all symptoms of high histamine/phosphate, not low.

Endotoxin can increase histamine and poor air quality can strongly raise histamine. I would consider looking into an air filter, as if the outside air is polluted then something like opening the windows won't help and will actually make it worse.

 

[Nomane Euger]

I wouldn't fully trust the article on histapenia/low histamine. It doesn't seem focused, more like a blogger trying to type as much text on as many links as possible to make money off of ads. Lower back pain, insatiable hunger, insomnia are all symptoms of high histamine/phosphate, not low.

Endotoxin can increase histamine and poor air quality can strongly raise histamine. I would consider looking into an air filter, as if the outside air is polluted then something like opening the windows won't help and will actually make it worse.

Hi lampo ,is there a specific air filter you would recommand,and didn’t you search yourself Wich type would be te best to use?i seen recently that histamine regulate appetite and that low histamine can cause insatiable hunger,it was a study

 

[somuch4food]

I wouldn't fully trust the article on histapenia/low histamine. It doesn't seem focused, more like a blogger trying to type as much text on as many links as possible to make money off of ads. Lower back pain, insatiable hunger, insomnia are all symptoms of high histamine/phosphate, not low.

Endotoxin can increase histamine and poor air quality can strongly raise histamine. I would consider looking into an air filter, as if the outside air is polluted then something like opening the windows won't help and will actually make it worse.

Thanks lampofred. I agree with endotoxin. Reducing meat seems to help with symptoms. It might not be as well digested as I thought and really reinforce the need to source better meat than the supermarket.

As for air quality, I was already planning on getting my ducts clean and filters changed in the coming weeks. Outside the air quality must be somewhat good, I'm in a suburb near a small mountain.

I can't do calcium though. When I used dairy last week, I felt like I aged 10 years. It did lower my histamine however my hands were much better. I think my calcium is dysregulated. I felt also tired on a high phosphate diet of meat and grains.

There seems to be a link with glutamate and glutamate opens up calcium channels iirc.

 

[Motif]

How are your copper, ceruloplasmin and zinc levels?

some people say histidine helped them. Pretty paradox. A German doctor says he helped a lot of people with histidine supplements.


why do you think some people have low copper etc? Lack of stomach acid?

 

[somuch4food]

How are your copper, ceruloplasmin and zinc levels?

some people say histidine helped them. Pretty paradox. A German doctor says he helped a lot of people with histidine supplements.


why do you think some people have low copper etc? Lack of stomach acid?

I can't test unless I have a doctor in my country, but with this pandemic they are even less available...

That's interesting about histidine. It could be beneficial as a supplement since it would be absorbed before reaching bacteria that degrade it to histamine.

My dairy experiment was flawed since I was using some cheese and kefir which have histamine. I will incorporate some milk this week and keep phosphorus low instead of compensating with more calcium.

Higher fat also seems to be very important to keep moral up.

 

[somuch4food]

I found another article that explains mast cells and histamine intolerance. It seems histamine itself can cause hypercalcemia:

• Hypercalcemia can be invoked by chronic histamine modulation of H2 receptors via immunoreactive PTH (iPTH) secretion

Histamine toxicity - Acidic Body

acidicbody.com

Another piece to add to my puzzle. I need calcium, but can easily get too much of it.

 

[Motif]

I found another article that explains mast cells and histamine intolerance. It seems histamine itself can cause hypercalcemia:

Histamine toxicity - Acidic Body

acidicbody.com

Another piece to add to my puzzle. I need calcium, but can easily get too much of it.

the Calcium thing is interesting. What to do about it ?

 

[Nomane Euger]

the Calcium thing is interesting. What to do about it ?

Hi motif,i reached this point when I was only eating meat fat and honey,where it felt my histamines lvl were very high,and Dairy gave me 1 week hardcore constipation,so I tryed bone meal powder from traditional market whole bone calcium(supposition pure and grass fed),it gave me hypercalcemia symptoms such as stiffness,spasms around the head,muscles not relaxing fully after light exercices,some pain on the top of the head,brain receiving informations in a weird exited way,very sensitive to noices even with ear plugs and very light sleep waking up very often during the night.i started to eat a lot of oranges,the oranges first gave me some high histamines symptoms but way milder than the bone powder,then the oranges didn’t give me any high histamines symptoms after 2 to 3 days,I retried the bone powder and I didn’t get any hypercalcemia symptom on the contrary it made me even more relax

 

[Motif]

but you are avoiding dairy and high meat now?

why do oranges have this effect ?

 

[Nomane Euger]

but you are avoiding dairy and high meat now?

why do oranges have this effect ?

I don’t eat dairy anyway because It give me constipation and I don’t bother retrying in different context because the 1 week constipation with stabbing stools bleeding my intestins isn’t worth.no I don’t avoid high meat,It doesn’t give me any high histamines symptoms anymore ,I prefer freshly slaughter meat that I let sit a room temperature a few hours before to eat.apparently when you have histamine store,things that make you deal with your histamines and lower it can cause a transient worsening of symptoms at first,but on the medium/long run as it normalised it,oranges contain calcium/vitamine c both are things that I didn’t get much in my diet and influence histamines and probably other stuffs that are involve that I ignore

 

[somuch4food]

the Calcium thing is interesting. What to do about it ?

It's a conundrum. I think some symptoms will have to be endured to get out of the loop. A little calcium can help reduce the intensity I think, but too much and hypercalcemia worsens.

As Nomane did, oranges are interesting since they have calcium and also help release histamine that is stuck inside cells. The dose can be increased gradually to tolerance.

I'm speaking on theory here. I will start to apply some of this, but I haven't yet.

 

[lampofred]

Hi lampo ,is there a specific air filter you would recommand,and didn’t you search yourself Wich type would be te best to use?i seen recently that histamine regulate appetite and that low histamine can cause insatiable hunger,it was a study

I did buy a pretty cheap ionizer in the past but that broke and I'm about to start searching again for something now. I haven't done much research yet but Dr. Peat said ozone is toxic, so I'm going to try to avoid anything that produces ozone.

I think histamine is a bit like amphetamine. If it's midly to moderately elevated, then it will raise appetite, but if it's severely elevated then you will be too wired to feel hunger, and at that point, lowering histamine (by anything that raises GABA, such as a benzo), will reveal the underlying hunger and increase appetite ravenously. But in the long-run I think histamine raises appetite and low histamine lowers appetite. I hope that's doesn't sound too convoluted but that's how I understand it...

 

[lampofred]

As for air quality, I was already planning on getting my ducts clean and filters changed in the coming weeks. Outside the air quality must be somewhat good, I'm in a suburb near a small mountain.

For the past year I've been seeing something sprayed constantly in multiple cities and states (I think @Regina has seen this too) and I think that it's strongly raising histamine/phosphate for me (symptoms related to allergies, overheating, and then compensatory fatigue, when I never had issues with being outside before).

Some people I know are also having issues. Kids are suddenly more apathetic & older males are more cranky, admittedly that might just be due to lockdowns & aging, but several teenage girls/older women have been complaining about suddenly heavier or irregular periods beginning the past year, and I don't think only lockdowns can explain that. But increased exposure to histamine/phosphate via the air will do that.

Of course that might not be the cause in your situation but just mentioning it as a possibility.