Histamine intolerance explained through a Ray Peat prism

somuch4food

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I found this article that clearly explains the mechanics of histamine in relation to Ray Peat's findings. It has revived my interest in doing a Ray Peat diet that I had abandoned in the last few months from lack of results, mainly histamine and fruit issues.

My main issues were latent back pain, excessive hunger that was never satiated with fruit and waking up at night. Tired of it, I went on to other diets like low histamine, low oxalates, low vitamin A but also did not find it worked that well. I had convinced myself of issues with dairy, vitamin D and probably other stuff. This article explains the mechanism of histamine and how it applies within Ray Peat's research. I have resumed dairy and will hope for the best.

I'm willing to give this another try in light that my continued meat intake might have been the biggest problem. I thought I digested it well, but seeing numerous places that mention meat putrefaction creating amines, phenols, ammonia that are linked to sensitivities I have come to the conclusion that it is time I try severely restricting meat and maybe try a short protein fast (24h) as recommended by Nathan Hatch in his book.

I'm attaching the article since it's hidden on the website and could potentially disappear.
 

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somuch4food

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I must add that I attempted to go on the FAILSAFE diet which removes salicylates, amines and glutamates. I found relief from anxiety and night waking with stomach/liver pain, but felt lethargic on it. My oldest was also much calmer, but still not completely well. I have now connected low starch with increased sociability with my oldest. On the FAILSAFE diet which was higher starch since it cuts most fruits, he was calmer, but not as sociable. The salicylates and amines make him very sensible though and seeing how incomplete meat digestion can create phenols (like salicylates) and amines. That's probably were the bottleneck lies.

I'm also certain I have oxalate issues and that my body produces them because I get very sandy stool from high fructose intake. So, does my older kid. Another point in the article that was a light bulb for me is the statement that proteins inhibit B6 production. B6 keeps popping in my research and since I rarely dream, I'm most probably deficient. I did dream more on the FAILSAFE which is another link.

I was afraid of an iron deficiency on a Peat diet, but I now realize that the anemic symptoms are probably from the irritated gut.
 

Inaut

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As somebody that suffers from histamine intolerance....I think zinc is one of the most important minerals. I've tried to avoid supplementing it (outside of oysters, beef and liver) but I think there's a place for temporary usage of supplemental zinc.
 

Korven

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Dairy and calcium -- specifically whole fat unhomogenized milk -- is the best anti-histamine food for me. Naturally I have insane high levels of histamine, checking ALL the boxes for histadelia, overproduction of saliva, perfectionistic/OCD/neurotic/type A personality, itchy/rosacea/ezcema type skin ,etc. Good quality milk calms everything down for me. From what I understand calcium helps reduce body stores of histamine.

I was doing a low VA diet of beans, rice and red meat for months and that really did NOT help me with histamine issues. I realize now there was way too much histidine relative to methionine in that diet, not enough calcium/vitamin C and other nutrients needed for regulating histamine. Red meat is very pro histamine.

Gut irritation causes massive histamine flares for me and I think I might have pushed it a bit too far recently with questionable foods, and not enough milk to counter histamine. I will reduce the grains and up the milk because I'm super itchy at the moment and I can't sleep.
 

somuch4food

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Oh, forgot to mention I started getting kidney pain from fructose intake since removing dairy. Yet another clue that oxalates are my enemy. I had never had that in my life which had always included dairy.
 

somuch4food

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Dairy and calcium -- specifically whole fat unhomogenized milk -- is the best anti-histamine food for me. Naturally I have insane high levels of histamine, checking ALL the boxes for histadelia, overproduction of saliva, perfectionistic/OCD/neurotic/type A personality, itchy/rosacea/ezcema type skin ,etc. Good quality milk calms everything down for me. From what I understand calcium helps reduce body stores of histamine.

I was doing a low VA diet of beans, rice and red meat for months and that really did NOT help me with histamine issues. I realize now there was way too much histidine relative to methionine in that diet, not enough calcium/vitamin C and other nutrients needed for regulating histamine. Red meat is very pro histamine.

Gut irritation causes massive histamine flares for me and I think I might have pushed it a bit too far recently with questionable foods, and not enough milk to counter histamine. I will reduce the grains and up the milk because I'm super itchy at the moment and I can't sleep.

I was doing a similar diet with beans, meat and grains because I thought I had high calcium since I reacted badly to vitamin D supplements (irritability). The experiment was eye opening though. I now see fructose is a problem in relation to oxalates and that calcium is necessary to damage control the oxalates. Remove both dairy and fructose probably is why it worked long term for Grant and why Karen Hurd has success with her protocol without a high calcium intake.

I was still seeing meat as valuable since I was not noticing obvious side effects from it, but in light of the fact that those undigested proteins create the very compounds I'm sensitive to. I now have a tangible reason to try and remove most of it.
 

somuch4food

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I will introduce low lactose milk products first with my family since an irritated gut does not produce much lactase enzyme. And lower meat and phosphorous intake.
 

Korven

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I was doing a similar diet with beans, meat and grains because I thought I had high calcium since I reacted badly to vitamin D supplements (irritability). The experiment was eye opening though. I now see fructose is a problem in relation to oxalates and that calcium is necessary to damage control the oxalates. Remove both dairy and fructose probably is why it worked long term for Grant and why Karen Hurd has success with her protocol without a high calcium intake.

I was still seeing meat as valuable since I was not noticing obvious side effects from it, but in light of the fact that those undigested proteins create the very compounds I'm sensitive to. I now have a tangible reason to try and remove most of it.

Yeah I really think calcium can be a helpful tool for buffering oxalates. Some people naturally make more endogenous oxalate so those would probably benefit more from having dairy in the diet. I have a hard time deciphering sometimes whether I'm reacting to fructose or salicylates... personally I'm leaning more towards salicylates because taking aspirin is like an ON switch for my rosacea. Maple syrup is fine which is low in salicylates. I also tend to avoid oranges now because things always go wrong when I eat them. Blueberries and kiwis are fine.

Now I eat about 150-200 g meat per day and rotate between fish, chicken, red meat and seem to do better with this approach (compared to red meat 3-4x daily).
 

somuch4food

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Yeah I really think calcium can be a helpful tool for buffering oxalates. Some people naturally make more endogenous oxalate so those would probably benefit more from having dairy in the diet. I have a hard time deciphering sometimes whether I'm reacting to fructose or salicylates... personally I'm leaning more towards salicylates because taking aspirin is like an ON switch for my rosacea. Maple syrup is fine which is low in salicylates. I also tend to avoid oranges now because things always go wrong when I eat them. Blueberries and kiwis are fine.

Now I eat about 150-200 g meat per day and rotate between fish, chicken, red meat and seem to do better with this approach (compared to red meat 3-4x daily).

Citrus and many tropical fruits are a histamine nightmare especially for my youngest child.

I know for a fact that I react to fructose by producing oxalates since I noticed I got sandy stool back (I also got kidney pain since I was off dairy) when I went all out on applesauce trying to prove/disprove my tolerance to fructose. I probably react to salicylates too (I was calmer when I avoided them) and hope that lowering meat will lower my phenol load from putrefaction and allow more tolerance to salicylates. It would help my sanity since salicylates make for very crazy over the top children. Blueberries are also safer in my house.
 

Korven

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Citrus and many tropical fruits are a histamine nightmare especially for my youngest child.

I know for a fact that I react to fructose by producing oxalates since I noticed I got sandy stool back (I also got kidney pain since I was off dairy) when I went all out on applesauce trying to prove/disprove my tolerance to fructose. I probably react to salicylates too (I was calmer when I avoided them) and hope that lowering meat will lower my phenol load from putrefaction and allow more tolerance to salicylates. It would help my sanity since salicylates make for very crazy over the top children. Blueberries are also safer in my house.

Hope you find something that works for you and your family. I feel like I can barely take care of myself and I cant imagine the stress of also having to figure out other people's health issues , crazy children etc :sweatsmile: I remember as a kid I only wanted to eat prepackaged wheat-based junk, sugary cereal with milk ,etc so I don't know how useful cravings are for figuring out safe foods.

You might want to check out @redsun 's posts about histamine , they are super informative.
 

somuch4food

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Hope you find something that works for you and your family. I feel like I can barely take care of myself and I cant imagine the stress of also having to figure out other people's health issues , crazy children etc :sweatsmile: I remember as a kid I only wanted to eat prepackaged wheat-based junk, sugary cereal with milk ,etc so I don't know how useful cravings are for figuring out safe foods.

You might want to check out @redsun 's posts about histamine , they are super informative.
I prefer my children crazy though. When I lose control of histamine/amines, it's irritability, oversensitivity and aggression. Our livers are most probably a mess. I have seen many posts of Redsun, but they lacked the bigger picture. It might be worth rereading them in light of that article.
 

Elize

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Which form of calcium would be best to use. Carbonate is bad as it's like cement and causes calcium buildup in arteries.
 

somuch4food

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Which form of calcium would be best to use. Carbonate is bad as it's like cement and causes calcium buildup in arteries.

I'm going back to dairy. Mostly, lower histamine ones like milk, mozzarella, cottage, ricotta... My thinking is that my reactions to dairy are due to lowering oxalates in the gut and causing more dumping. I'm also lowering meat to keep proteins low and avoid too much putrefaction that could very well be the cause of all those sensitivity issues. I have almost always eaten meat at least twice a day and so, it is a great possibility.
 

Elize

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I have only 2 oz of beef at a time thereafter reactions start as I then get into overload and every 4 days only
 

somuch4food

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I have only 2 oz of beef at a time thereafter reactions start as I then get into overload and every 4 days only

I see many struggle with oversensitivity on Facebook groups. I don't want to dismiss what you are doing and I don't know the extent of your symptoms, but I'm wondering if you are overreacting to your reactions.

I had a taste of this when I tried the FAILSAFE diet and ate very cleanly. Just a little bit of salicylates made me react and I started getting scared of needing such a restrictive diet long term. I have chosen not to listen too much to little reactions. My body is sick and certainly will react to many things. I will keep my symptoms bearable and focus on nutrients to nourish me. By restricting too much and being overly attentive to reactions I think we enter a vicious cycle.

As an example, yesterday I ate many pieces of cheese with some histamine in it, a banana, then some salsa with pasta and a soy dessert. I did feel the histamine storm, but it didn't get out of hand and eventually resolved itself. I think the calcium in the cheese helped get over the reaction, but we'll see if it repeats over time.

To minimize reactions, it can be helpful to increase frequency and reduce the dosage. A little frequently might be more bearable symptom wise and it gets the body used to the new food.
 
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Which form of calcium would be best to use. Carbonate is bad as it's like cement and causes calcium buildup in arteries.


"Conclusion. In this experimental model of CRF, calcium carbonate supplementation did not accelerate but instead decreased vascular calcification. If our observation can be extrapolated to humans, it appears to question the contention that calcium carbonate supplementation, at least when given in moderate amounts, necessarily enhances vascular calcification. It is also compatible with the hypothesis of a preponderant role of phosphorus over that of calcium in promoting vascular calcification in CRF."
 

Elize

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My. MRI showed some calcium buildup after carbonate use for 6 months and I didn't have that in the before MRI. Will eat for health rather than supplement
 

reality

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Have you tried taking a high dose of the active form of B2? B2 is needed for MAO which will help histamine and other amines. It’s also extremely important for a lot of different enzymes and is needed to make the rest of the b vitamins work (b6,b12, folate etc), which can all contribute to improving histamine clearance and other food intolerances by helping the liver, gut, detoxification etc. I think a lot of people can be short on riboflavin because it’s conversion to the active form is hindered in hypothyroidism/adrenal insufficiency, so eating all the liver and milk will not help. There’s a huge thread on the Phoenix rising forum ‘b2 I love you’ which is super interesting.

also, problems with salicylates/phenols/oxalates indicate sulfur problems, possibly a lack of bio available sulfur, which molybdenum could help. Molybdenum is needed for making sulfur out of cysteine/methionine otherwise it will get fermented (which will produce ammonia), and that’s possibly why you do not do well with too much meat?

I too have been in the same boat as you and both b2 and molybdenum have been extremely helpful for me.
 
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My. MRI showed some calcium buildup after carbonate use for 6 months and I didn't have that in the before MRI. Will eat for health rather than supplement

I think for that reason green leaves and milk are the richest sources of vitamin K
 
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I'm going back to dairy. Mostly, lower histamine ones like milk, mozzarella, cottage, ricotta... My thinking is that my reactions to dairy are due to lowering oxalates in the gut and causing more dumping. I'm also lowering meat to keep proteins low and avoid too much putrefaction that could very well be the cause of all those sensitivity issues. I have almost always eaten meat at least twice a day and so, it is a great possibility.
If digestion isn't strong, then meat can cause problems with putrefaction for sure. Milk can cause putrefaction too though. Any source of protein can. The most important thing for lowering putrefaction is to avoid constipation. If the person eats meat and very little fiber or fermentable carbs and is constipated, then the bacteria will ferment all of the carbs/ fiber that were in the colon along with meat, and when they exhaust those fermentable things, they will go on to putrefying the remnants of the meat. The same thing can happen with milk. The lactose is very protective against putrefaction, but if the person drinks milk and their bowel transit is slow, then the lactose will be completely fermented in the colon, and the remnants of casein with be targeted by the bacteria, giving rise to phenol, indol, skatol etc. By increasing bowel frequency and ingesting some fiber and fermentable carbs, the bacteria will only have time to ferment the carbs/ fiber and before they can access the protein/ aminoacids in the colon, the organism will already have excreted those remnants( bowel movement).

 
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