Higher Omega-3/omega-6 Ratio May Damage The Brain Irreversibly

[haidut]

Ray wrote about the man working on a boat, eating a pound of fatty fish a day, and developing degenerative brain condition. Many nutrition gurus nowadays advocate higher omega-3/omega-6 ratios and claim that while omega-6 may be bad for us, omega-3 is not. Well, this study says otherwise. The disturbing thing from that study was that while the fish oil group had lower levels of arachidonic acid (and thus lower inflammation overall) this did not protect the brain from the damaging effects of high omega-3. Oh, and some of the negative effects of omega-3 on the brain may be very difficult (or maybe even not possible) to reverse.

High dietary fish oil alters the brain polyunsaturated fatty acid composition. - PubMed - NCBI

"...When the corn-oil diet was supplemented with 14.5% cod liver oil or 12.5% salmon oil, the fatty acid composition of brain PUFA was significantly altered, even if alpha-tocopherol was added to the salmon-oil diet. Comparing salmon-oil- and cod-liver-oil-fed animals with corn-oil-fed animals, arachidonic acid 22:4(n-6) and 22:5(n-6) were reduced, and 20:5(n-3), 22:5(n-3) and 22:6(n-3) were increased. Liver fatty acids were also significantly altered. Thus, the brain is not protected against a large excess of very-long-chain n-3 PUFA, which increase n-3/n-6 ratio and could lead to abnormal function, and which might be difficult to reverse."

 

[Such_Saturation]

But where does it say about the damage?

 

[haidut]

But where does it say about the damage?

This group of authors has several studies on PubMed about the negative effects of omega-3 on brain growth. In another study they claim high intake of omega-3 has the same effect on brain as cortisol - i.e. shrinking it. Also, the study posted in this thread says "...which increase n-3/n-6 ratio and could lead to abnormal function". I think that implies detrimental effect, right? I am trying to get the full study to see what they actually tested in this study.
Combined with the other study saying omega-3 and especially DHA have cortisol-like effects on the brain I made the connection myself, but I think it is also implied even by the study above.

 

[haidut]

But where does it say about the damage?

This group of authors has several studies on PubMed about the negative effects of omega-3 on brain growth. In another study they claim high intake of omega-3 has the same effect on brain as cortisol - i.e. shrinking it. Also, the study posted in this thread says "...which increase n-3/n-6 ratio and could lead to abnormal function". I think that implies detrimental effect, right? I am trying to get the full study to see what they actually tested in this study.
Combined with the other study saying omega-3 and especially DHA have cortisol-like effects on the brain I made the connection myself, but I think it is also implied even by the study above.

I just looked at the study. They are suggesting the lipid composition of liver and brain after the high fish oil intake is reminiscent of yellow fat disease. I don't know how reversible that is, but it does affect the brain above all other organs.

 

[Such_Saturation]

But where does it say about the damage?

This group of authors has several studies on PubMed about the negative effects of omega-3 on brain growth. In another study they claim high intake of omega-3 has the same effect on brain as cortisol - i.e. shrinking it. Also, the study posted in this thread says "...which increase n-3/n-6 ratio and could lead to abnormal function". I think that implies detrimental effect, right? I am trying to get the full study to see what they actually tested in this study.
Combined with the other study saying omega-3 and especially DHA have cortisol-like effects on the brain I made the connection myself, but I think it is also implied even by the study above.

I see, that makes sense. What is that one called?

 

[Zachs]

Scary to think people used to recommend super dosing fish oil. I remember Dan John and an author at T-Nation recommending 40g fish oil a day.

 

[Anonymous]

Nothing is irreversible.

 

[haidut]

Nothing is irreversible.

True, but I think the context for many people is if something is reversible within a few years. If it is reversible after say 20-30 years most people would give up and accept it as their "fate". Unless of course they load up on cypro or lisuride

 

[jjhotcakes]

The subject of this thread is specific to the ratio. Does the ratio itself cause damage? Or is it mostly about the high PUFA? I think there is some pretty good evidence that n-3 to n-6 matters slightly, and the higher the better, but only in the context of a diet that is overall low in PUFA. So, for example, I suspect that grass-fed butter with a higher n-3 to n-6 ratio but still overall low PUFA is probably healthier than grain-fed butter.

 

[haidut]

The subject of this thread is specific to the ratio. Does the ratio itself cause damage? Or is it mostly about the high PUFA? I think there is some pretty good evidence that n-3 to n-6 matters slightly, and the higher the better, but only in the context of a diet that is overall low in PUFA. So, for example, I suspect that grass-fed butter with a higher n-3 to n-6 ratio but still overall low PUFA is probably healthier than grain-fed butter.

The study was done to see if the brain is vulnerable to omega-3 overload like other tissues are in the form of yellow fat disease. The study found the same change in omega-3/omega-6 ratio in the brain as in other tissues, so the brain IS vulnerable to the damage caused by yellow fat disease, AND vitamin E was not able to stop that. I am not sure why they had an assumption that vitamin E will prevent the change in ratio.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Combined with the other study saying omega-3 and especially DHA have cortisol-like effects on the brain I made the connection myself, but I think it is also implied even by the study above.

I noticed that nootropics people claim to get noticeable benefits from fish oil. I think one of them compared Methylene Blue + Fish oil to piracetam. Also, some of the research suggest improved problem solving with O3 fatty acids.

You think it is reasonable to assume that these positive results are due to the increased stress of O3?

 

[haidut]

Combined with the other study saying omega-3 and especially DHA have cortisol-like effects on the brain I made the connection myself, but I think it is also implied even by the study above.

I noticed that nootropics people claim to get noticeable benefits from fish oil. I think one of them compared Methylene Blue + Fish oil to piracetam. Also, some of the research suggest improved problem solving with O3 fatty acids.

You think it is reasonable to assume that these positive results are due to the increased stress of O3?

I think it's very plausible. Many people feel great on Paleo for a few months due to the massive increases in cortisol. Btw, here is one study showing PUFA, and DHA in particular, increasing cortisol production. If it is true in humans as well, then it would explain the short-term cognitive benefits but the long term null results of most omega-3 clinical trials.
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/c ... 9.full.pdf

 

[jjhotcakes]

n-3 is supposed to increase NO as well, which, of course, could produce some short term benefits of increased blood flow. Of course from the Peat lens that's also a stress response. But it would be a complementary explanation for some of the short term benefits people experience with n-3 supplementation.

 

[skycop00]

A fella threw this study at me today saying RP is wrong about PUFA ...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160324083000.htm

 

[Richiebogie]

A fella threw this study at me today saying RP is wrong about PUFA ...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160324083000.htm

According to the study:

"The serum fatty acid concentrations of 2,189 men aged between 42 and 60 years and with no baseline type 2 diabetes diagnosis were analysed at the onset of the Kuopio Ischaemic Heart Disease Risk Factor Study, KIHD, in 1984-1989 at the University of Eastern Finland. During a follow-up of 19 years, 417 men were diagnosed with type 2 diabetes."

It is a bit suspicious that this study only looks at type 2 diabetes. Shouldn't it look at a range of health markers and indeed who is still alive after 19 years?

 

[haidut]

A fella threw this study at me today saying RP is wrong about PUFA ...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160324083000.htm

When there are several double-blind placebo trials showing higher omega-6 consumptions blocks the insulin "receptor" and causes diabetes II in humans, why do you need an epidemiological study? Search the forum for "randle cycle" or "randle effect".

 

[skycop00]

According to the study:

"The serum fatty acid concentrations of 2,189 men aged between 42 and 60 years and with no baseline type 2 diabetes diagnosis were analysed at the onset of the Kuopio Ischaemic Heart Disease Risk Factor Study, KIHD, in 1984-1989 at the University of Eastern Finland. During a follow-up of 19 years, 417 men were diagnosed with type 2 diabetes."

It is a bit suspicious that this study only looks at type 2 diabetes. Shouldn't it look at a range of health markers and indeed who is still alive after 19 years?

When there are several double-blind placebo trials showing higher omega-6 consumptions blocks the insulin "receptor" and causes diabetes II in humans, why do you need an epidemiological study? Search the forum for "randle cycle" or "randle effect".

I just posted that as I was trying to respond to a DR Gregor fan on youtube.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

A fella threw this study at me today saying RP is wrong about PUFA ...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160324083000.htm

It also has stuff like this:

Baseline characteristics for the entire study population are
presented in
Table 1 and according to the fatty acid intakes in
Tables I and II in the online-only Data Supplement. In general,
higher SFA intake was associated with less favorable health
and lifestyle characteristics and higher PUFA intake with more
favorable characteristics, whereas the associations with trans
fatty acid (TFA) and MUFA intakes were more mixed (Tables
I and II in the online-only Data Supplement). Dairy intake was
higher and margarine intake was lower in those with higher SFA
intake, whereas opposite was observed with MUFA and PUFA
intakes. Intake of fruits, berries, and vegetables was lower in
those with higher SFA, TFA, and MUFA intakes and higher in
those with higher PUFA intake. SFA was positively correlated
with TFA and MUFA and negatively correlated with PUFA
(Table 2). MUFA and PUFA had a strong positive correlation.
​

SFA and PUFA intakes are correlated with other factors. The study has quite a few weaknesses, like 24 hour fast, and I don't think you should draw too many conclusions from it.

 

[Agent207]

This study says close to nothing about natural omega3 from fresh foods. It talks fish oil supplements, we don't need any study to conclude that is crap.

Try comparing natural foods with higher omega3 : omega6 ratio like pastured eggs or dairy vs farmed grain feed variety. Or adding some hemp seeds. But please dont use fish oil supplements to discredit omega3. Night and day.

Or at least, adjust the title to the specific subject, or study result; "High dietary fish oil supplement may... "

Haidut is a beast of gently manipulating studies titles and conclusions. i think that practices tend to affect credibility.

 

[DaveFoster]

Epidemiology is the king fallacy of the world.