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High Temps And Pulse But Feeling Fatigued

  1. My fatigue has been getting steadily worse over the months, and it feels as if I have burned through all my "life energy" by maintaining this high metabolism for years. I know Dr. Peat doesn't believe in the "rate-of-living" theory, so what could another explanation for the fatigue be?

    I used to feel great at a high pulse and temperature, now I'm regularly in the high 98s for temperature and high 80s for pulse, currently at 99 for temperature and 92 for BPM because I ate a high-salt meal, but still no energy.

    I notice that the most energetic people I know have low heart rates, low blood pressure.
     
  2. Where were you when you started. You know that I have been up to “normal” temperatures recently an am feeling shitty so want to know about your journey as there are similarities.
     
  3. I wonder if your high pulse is simply coming from your body's natural physiology or if it's coming from having supplementation.
     
  4. Warning, this is pretty long lol.

    Way before Peat, when I was healthiest and felt the best my heart rate was in the high 50s and low 60s. But back then I played sports, so even with the low heart rate, I had strong circulation. My temperature was in the low 98s.

    Right before starting Peat my temperature was in the mid 97s and my heart rate was in the high 60s, but this higher heart rate was due to poorer circulation, not better metabolism. Then immediately after starting my temperatures hovered in the low 98s and my heart rate was in the 70s due to the boost in metabolism. I felt almost as good then as I did way back when my heart rate was in the 50s, I was just energizer bunny because of the sugar and because I was finally getting adequate protein for the first time in my life. Since then my baseline heart rate has steadily been getting higher and my temperature, too, and my energy was good (but never as great as those first few months), until about a year ago when everything just stagnated.

    It feels like slowly I have been getting more and sluggish, less aware, more apathetic, etc. even though my pulse and temperature have not gone down and have actually been going up as I'm depleting more and more PUFA from the body. I think a part of it has to do with the fact that I moved and the extremely high radiation in my new place is seriously screwing me and depleting my energy, but that's definitely not all of it... It feels like there is something missing. I think I need the adrenaline that comes with colder temperatures to function, the heat might be increasing serotonin too much. But Peat says adrenaline is toxic and that good energy is provided by high CO2, not catecholamines. But I'm not producing enough CO2 from thyroid even though my temps and pulse are high, too much lactic acid. So I'm just confused. What I think is that my circulation is not as good as it needs to be, and I don't have enough GABA, but I don't know how to improve circulation without aerobic exercise, which Peat says will just increase lactic acid.

    In Traditional Chinese Medicine terms it feels like too much yang (metabolic stimulation) depleted all the yin (cholesterol, nutrients, GABA), and now because there is no yin, yang cannot be produced either, so there is a deficiency of both yin and yang.

    I'm also getting verbose as hell.

    EDIT: It's actually interesting that you're having similar issues because I was thinking of starting Buteyko. But now I guess I know that's not going to be helpful.
     
  5. Buteyko changed my life. Without it I’d be dead now. I recommend it very highly and in fact I think you’ll feel better immediately. Just doing bag breathing can help you, potentially right away.

    I have high CO2 levels. When I fixed my health with Buteyko, ironically enough I got hypo thyroid (more than before probably) without knowing it. Cold hands and feet, OMG, I went through a year with icicles. My coach said that was “normal.”

    There were some threads a few years back about that — how somehow Buteyko lowers thyroid function. Dr. Peat doesn’t seem to be aware of it. I’m a Buteyko coach and I know that it is a fact.

    I think if you start you will feel a great benefit. I’d also do aerobic exercise if I were you, with mouth closed. Build up air hunger.

    You always nose-breathe, correct? Do you wake up with your mouth dry? Are you mouth breathing during sleep?
     
  6. @lampofred you sound like you’re on a rebound.

    Do you weight train or do any other exercise? If so how much? How long since you’ve taken time off?

    What are your eating habits like? Do you ever under eat? Do you track calories and macros? Do you track your bodyweight?

    You sound like you’re either incurring sns dominance or are rebounding from it.
     
  7. What are your waking temperatures and pulses?

    I have found through personal experience that temps and pulses you achieve during the day can be optimal and you still can be sick.

    Waking temperatures and pulse are the true markers of metabolism. That's why these are the two #'s I use in my plots and analyses.

    Fixed for ya =P

    Also I have come to realize that in restoring metabolism, you're either all in, or not in. What I mean by that is - if you half heartedly go about restoring metabolism (not going for 98.6F waking temps and 85 bpm waking pulses) then you're gonna be constantly stuck in "Limbo"... still sick, and your body is trying to improve, but can't because it's still missing nutrients. My opinion that's why so many here stay sick for years. A commitment needs to made and followed through with full 100% gusto.
     
  8. Very curious as to what specific suggestions you will make to @lampofred

    Thank you!
     
  9. Well I won't lie as I still haven't found the exact blueprint for myself (So far my best 28 day avg waking temp is 98.2F, 0.4F less than I'd like), but so far, overall I've found virtually all of Peat's principles to hold true in bringing about improvements.

    -- Minimize bad protein aminos (Fernstrom ratio)
    -- Maximize carb/protein ratio
    -- Eat very high sugar, low starch
    -- Eat high SFA/PUFA, but a little on the lower side overall on fat
    -- Very low total PUFA
    -- Calcium/Phosphorus ratio
    -- etc....


    But honestly you guys like myself are veterans of these forums so none of this will be news to you I don't think, so I think then the actual important thing is I think it's necessary to start tracking detailed information to get well tbh, I'd be screwed if I didn't start my own database because the basics are simple, but the details are very devious and precise. For example - my data is pointing me towards a pretty precise 7-8 carb/protein ratio. Just saying "Oh have a high carb/protein ratio" is far too vague and requires further detail for your specific metabolism. I doubt yours or lamp's ideal ratio will be the exact same as mine. It could be more, it could be less... or maybe, it could be the same. I can't tell you that. Tracking data is such a major pain, but, for me, it's what it takes to get well, so it's what I will do.
     
  10. thank you. I have been doing most of those things. Not paying attention to Fernstrom ratios but I'm not convinced on that.

    I know for a fact that doing those things didn't raise my metabolism.

    What did it for me was taking the right forms of thyroid in the right dosage.

    I believe that I will be off this in a year and won't need it, but this is the only thing that has worked for me.
     
  11. Yeah without tracking data it's a crapshoot to be honest. I also spun my wheels even following the strategies talked about here until I actually got into the nitty gritty details.

    Regarding Fernstrom ratio, this is from my personal database:

    -- 28 day means 4 week (1 month) averaged data (to reduce the scatter of data and increase accuracy)

    These plots made it clear to me that high fernstrom ratio decreases metabolism and increases weight gain.

    upload_2019-6-21_11-17-13.png
     
  12. I really respect what you're doing with the careful data tracking, but what scares me the most about your approach (focusing only on higher temps and pulse rate) is that there is no guarantee you won't crash hard sometime in the future. It has been known for thousands of years that some foods raise your body temperature (such as beef and citrus fruits) and that others lower your body temperature (such as milk), and accordingly foods are categorized as either "warming" or "cooling." Warming foods are energizing in the short-run but depleting in the long-run, cooling foods are nourishing because they are replenishing and because they reduce energy expenditure. Ignoring all the corrupt, profit-motivated modern studies demonizing sugar, even in traditional medicine it was known that sugar is bad for you because it is a stimulant -- even though it makes you feel great at first, it burns through your nutrients faster than you can replace them. How do you know that's not happening to you? Looking at your dietary conditions, if you combine them all the main thing that you are really saying is that you should pound the fructose until you feel great. How do you know that your temps are rising because of actual nourishment and not because of the depleting stimulant effects of fructose?

    I didn't really believe in the warming/cooling concept at first because Dr. Peat didn't seem to believe in it, but it seems like that is what has happened to me. Warming foods (mainly OJ) have burned through all of my reserves faster than I could replace them.
     
  13. The short answer to your question is this is why I look at waking temp and pulses. These are a much better gauge of metabolism than during the day while fed. Like you said, anyone can pound food and make their temps and pulses go up in the short term but some might hurt in the long term (as gauged by waking metabolism). Long term is in fact what I'm interested in (also the reason I'm plotting 28 day averages instead of on a day-to-day basis). Also, when both waking markers are high I generally also feel a lot better, well rested ETC. They are strongly connected to metabolism, mood, motivation IME.
     
  14. Not anyone can make their temperatures without thyroid. I could not. I am almost 60 years old, and that makes a difference.

    I also lost 5 pounds of fat lately which is interesting...it coincides with body aches and also higher body temperatures.

    I did measure my calories and other stuff for about a week @Cirion but no insights there.
     
  15. I guess my question is how do you know waking temperatures are a reflection of resting metabolic rate due to good nourishment as opposed to a stimulated metabolic rate from a high fructose intake. For example, if you take amphetamine or caffeine before going to sleep, the stimulant effects will still be elevating your body temperature upon waking. I think it's likely that fructose has a similar long-lingering effect (but obviously to a milder degree).
     
  16. Takes a lot longer than a week to really make conclusions. As I mention, I didn't start to see any trends until I averaged data for 7,14, and now 28 days.

    I have almost 3 months of data now and I still have not made 100% conclusions yet, but I'm getting there.
     
  17. Fructose isn't the magic pill to solve ALL problems. It's a major factor, but no, you can't just be a fruitarian and get optimal health. Some protein and fats are necessary. I have not yet determined the optimal amount of each macro, it's a work in progress, but I know almost for a fact that at least some proteins and fats (the right kinds) are also important. I am not a fruitarian, in case that wasn't clear.

    Anyway, you'll know it works if you: are feeling more well rested, higher libido, more motivation and energy, high temps and pulses, losing fat/bloat from the midsection, possibly gaining muscle, good with the ladies, laugh more, etc etc....
     
  18. @lampofred you dont think its from NoFap? Are you having any sex to fulfill your needs? Are you still "drowning" yourself in progesterone? If so there might lie your answer. Hans Selye noticed that if he gave rats an very high dose of progesterone it would put them into a completely comatose state- he thought they were dead.

    @ecstatichamster through what mechanism does buteyko breathing cause hypothyroidism? CO2 opposes everything that inhibits thyroid function. If you were doing 2 hours of exercise a day like some coaches recommend there is your answer in regards to thyroid suppression. Lots of people trying to increase their CP (at all costs) make themselves hypothyroid because increasing CO2 production (via thyroid hormone) usually increases the rate of ventilation and lowering CO2 production can often lower the rate of ventilation .

    Why Raising Metabolism May NOT Rise CO2; Effect Of Drugs And Temperature On CO2 Tolerance
     
  19. @ecstatichamster through what mechanism does buteyko breathing cause hypothyroidism? CO2 opposes everything that inhibits thyroid function. If you were doing 2 hours of exercise a day like some coaches recommend there is your answer in regards to thyroid suppression. Lots of people trying to increase their CP (at all costs) make themselves hypothyroid because increasing CO2 production (via thyroid hormone) usually increases the rate of ventilation and lowering CO2 production can often lower the rate of ventilation .

    [/QUOTE]

    no I wasn't. It's a fact and it's obvious when we work with students. I didn't recognize it for years. Buteyko increasing CO2 lowers thyroid.
     
  20. I don't think I've ever been healthy enough to consistently have an actual sex drive. I can count on my fingers that number of times I've had an actual sex drive, but since methylene blue pretty much eliminates my libido, the majority of my "sex drive" has been from nitric oxide. So I don't think the low energy is from NoFap.

    I don't take high doses of progesterone anymore unless I am just extremely stressed, but progesterone actually increases my energy (and also increases my sex drive), so I don't think the fact that I used to take lots of progesterone when I was stressed has anything to do with it either.

    Dr. Peat also said that he thinks low brain progesterone is involved in fatigue because progesterone is what allows you to relax, turn off energy expenditure, and accumulate energy so that you can work again in the future. So progesterone isn't the cause of fatigue, it's actually too much brain estrogen preventing me from being able to accumulate enough energy that is at fault.
     
  21. no I wasn't. It's a fact and it's obvious when we work with students. I didn't recognize it for years. Buteyko increasing CO2 lowers thyroid.[/QUOTE]

    I think the explanation for this might be very simple... Peat has said the purpose of thyroid/metabolism is to make CO2. So if you are increasing CO2 via other means then there is no need for your body to maintain a high metabolism and unnecessarily burn through vitamins and minerals.
     
  22. @ilikecats I know you and others on these forums are obsessed with the idea that sex increases androgens but it has never proven true for me. I have always done nofap myself the two times when I was at my healthiest, most driven, most androgenic, strongest in the gym etc etc etc.

    Actually, my health degraded pretty fast after getting into my relationship a couple years ago and I literally could feel the serotonin in my body the first evening I had with the new gf, I didn't like it, after being used to nofap. Sex is drastically over rated. Or at least, the "O" part of sex. Abstaining from that like some people are doing via karezza probably does increase androgens in the long run.
     
  23. I think sex does increase androgenic activity but it does it at the expense of progesterone. NoFap is a stimulant. Stimulants in general increase both estrogen and progesterone but decrease testosterone. If you can lower nitric oxide/increase CO2 then stimulants will increase only progesterone and not estrogen and will not lower testosterone.
     
  24. I think sex does raise androgens. There are some studies on it.

    I practice sex that does not emphasize orgasm, and it is 100 times a better than anything else in life. I used to think sex was over rated too...but now it’s the greatest thing in the world.
     
  25. Yes, this way you get the benefits but without the drawbacks. Benefits of both nofap and sex combined when you do it that way. Only way I will ever do it in the future probably.
     
  26. @lampofred alright. Yeah obviously having low progesterone levels will hurt energy levels but peat has mentioned being completely knocked unconcious by a one gram dose of progesterone. I wasn’t sure how much you were taking. But it doesn’t sound like your taking nearly that much so I doubt progesterone is the issue.

    @Cirion im not “obsessed” but I like science and facts and called you out when you were lying about the effects of sex on the organism. “Probably does increase androgens in the long run” lol no mechanisms no studies no science yet so much confidence. You feel better abstaining than fine but let’s not alter science just to conform to your experience.

    @ecstatichamster I can’t see that being true. That’s not how CO2 works. People living at high altitude retain more CO2 and have higher thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid is needed to synthesize progesterone from cholesterol- does supplementing Progesterone lower thyroid hormone levels? (no it increases them). CO2 is thermogenic I’ve increased my temps by one degree after a sixty minutes bag breathing session I can’t see how it’s behind your (former) cold hands and feet. I’m not sure what your doing or why you would needed a “coach”. Excessive breath holding is probably hypoxic but breath holding in small amounts should be okay but I personally just practice reduced breathing. The whole CP obsession is misguided though since increasing the metabolism lowers the CP. The problems with “buteyko” are due to their reductionism and need for neat charts and guidelines to create a “system” and not understanding some basic things about human physiology. Reduced breathing is nothing ground breaking and it’s been practiced for thousands of years before buteyko put his name on it (I’m assuming you know that but still). Have you seen an increase in

    “I think sex does increase androgenic activity but it does it at the expense of progesterone“- lampofred lol what? You just make up so much BS “salt promotes serontonin dominance” -bastardizing ray peats ideas. There’s just no hope for some of you guys. Cirion went as far to say that partner sex is very serotonergic: “i could literally feel the serotonin in my body” and EH says that CO2 lowers thyroid hormone levels. This thread lol unfortunately this seems to be typical.
     
  27. @ecstatichamster correct me if wrong, but aren't your T levels like 900 ng/dl from doing karezza?

    Clearly they aren't facts man if the so called science does not hold true for me lol. We all know how factual "science" is, it all depends on who you listen to and who did the study. That's why we are in the health mess we are in since "science" and "facts" say that SFA, sugar, etc is bad for you and PUFA and starch is good for you, as is fasting and caloric restriction. I also like science and facts, but there's "facts" and then there's actual facts. when the so called science and so called facts don't jive with my personal experience, then I throw them out. In fact, the truth is more important to me than anything. That's why I have a mega-thread and mega-depository of data to truly determine what's true, and I'm slowly getting to the bottom of just that. Reading peat's articles and such has helped me determine many factors that matter, and it turns out he's right on most of them, but I only believe that because I have the data that clearly shows it to be true, not just taking his word on it. Relying solely on "science and facts" is an appeal to authority and we should be cautious of this. I put in quote marks, because I'm absolutely for real science, not junk science.
     
  28. @Cirion ”from doing karrenza” sure... he has high testosterone levels (not even out of normal range) and sex CAN help keep T levels up but it’s not determining factor (any sex can doesn’t have to be karrenza). Dude you don’t even understand how reality works. The science shows that PUFA is bad. Wow really groundbreaking stuff your coming up with those threads. You act like any of your findings are new.
     
  29. lol you crack me up bro.

    I never said I was coming up with "new" science or anything. What I am doing is proving that some of what Ray said is actually true. I do not trust anything I can not personally see or experience. Not even from Ray. I've been burned too many times by "Experts" so now the only "Expert" I trust is me. I am my own expert, my own coach, my own trainer etc... That's all I'm saying now. Looking into studies is fun, but ultimately useless unless you can apply it to your own life. That's my point. My own "Study" I do with myself is truth because I can see and experience it. Nothing else is truth to me anymore. Or it least its truth for me, which is all that matters anyway.
     
  30. I think it’d be helpful if you provided more information such as your diet, supps, sleep quality, occupation, hobbies, and relationships.

    Imo diet is the most important factor, so at least starting with that.

    I know it’s been beaten to death here on this forum, but I’ve never once felt fatigued from coffee, sugar, and milk, only glorious, at times manic energy =P. I easily become fatigued from an inappropriate diet, which is usually because I ate too much starch, ESPECIALLY if it’s white rice. Egg yolk for sex drive, animal fat soup for digestión, maybe try having a beer or two just to relax, smoke some tobacco (warning this will fatigue), listen to some good music, sit outside in nature, say some prayers/meditate, cultivate some mind-body awareness, get away from the “I” for a bit.
     
  31. I'm not making anything up randomly. I try to explain my thought processes, plus I try to say "I think" as much as I can whenever I say something that hasn't directly been said by RP.

    For sex, I was talking about orgasm specifically when I said it increases androgenic activity (not saying it directly increases testosterone, jsut that it increase androgenic activity) and decreases progesterone. RP has said prolactin inhibits progesterone production in mammals, so logically anything that will increase prolactin will lower the activity of progesterone. Prolactin is also known to be an aromatase inhibitor (I think this is why prolactin goes up when estrogen is high, it is a protective reaction against the estrogen), which is why people who are stressed crave orgasm. The orgasm reduces nitric oxide, stress, estrogen, by slowing your metabolism, but at the cost of higher prolactin and lower progesterone, which shifts the balance away from progesterone/estrogen activity to androgen activity. This is why RP says stimulants are "estrogenic", anything that raises raises metabolism without raising CO2 to reduce the need for nitric oxide will lower testosterone and increase estrogen. So orgasm is basically the opposite of a stimulant, it increases CO2 and testosterone but slows metabolism and lowers progesterone. Thyroid and to some extent coffee are the only things that raise metabolism while also raising CO2.

    For salt, RP says it is anti adrenaline, and anything that is anti adrenaline by definition will raise GABA and serotonin since GABA and adrenaline, serotonin and adrenaline are inversely correlated. As RP mentions, if you are deficient in salt, you will have insomnia, and increasing salt intake will increase GABA and allow you to sleep deeply. But salt intake doesn't raise GABA ad libitum, otherwise no one would have any anxiety or sleep troubles at all, we would all just keep drinking salt water. The amount of GABA you can produce is related to the amount of CO2 you can tolerate. You can't force more GABA production than your metabolism is capable of, so when you exceed your salt tolerance you start increasing serotonin instead of GABA.
     
  32. You are incorrect. If a person is life threateningly sick, they need the Buteyko method to get better. It is a complex process. Just as someone coming here to “do Peating” finds a lot of complexity. Dr. Peat doesn’t have a manual and is not prescriptive but I know that most people who are very sick need a lot of coaching and guidance.

    It is NOT simple and I’ve coached a lot of people with VERY serious life-threatening or fatal diseases. The idea of “reductionism” being wholly bad is itself reductionist — do you get the irony of your grand statements railing against grand statements?
     
  33. I am paying attention to this thread because I face similar problems. I have body aches and just don’t feel that wonderful and my waking temperatures are for the first time “normal” according to Dr. Broda Barnes...

    I can relate to @lampofred and what he is going through.

    I appreciate everyone’s ideas, I really do. I do think it’s fine to say “my experience is” but to insist somehow that this is a rule, that someone is “doing it wrong” if they don’t have a similar experience, is not facing the reality of how each of us is so different.

    I have high CO2. I sleep well. I eat reasonably well: very low PUFA, high calcium to phosphorus ratio, lowish iron. Plenty of collagen.

    Why am I like @lampofred feeling crappy?
     
  34. Broda barnes says 98.2F is acceptable wake temperature. I disagree. What's yours? I never feel good unless my waking temp is at 98.6. I know we've had this discussion before, but I stand by this statement 110%. 0.4F may not sound like a big difference, but literally my energy is 2-3x or more with that 0.4F difference. Yes, it's that big of a difference. It's a night and day difference. NO comparison.
     
  35. I think Buteyko is a really good thing in general and I do want to find a legitimate coach and start it. But I think a big problem with it is that it induces hypoxia. The amount of oxygen we need is correlated to our mental activity. If we turn off the mind as with sedatives, then CO2 can freely elevate without causing hypoxia and lead to several health benefits. But elevating CO2 by forcibly breathing less and not naturally lowering mental activity means that cells will experience hypoxia and the body will become rigid because the cells will not be getting the oxygen they need. Yes, CO2 increases oxygen delivery, but at 30-40 CP, there is barely any oxygen to power cells unless mental activity is very low and as a result, requirement for oxygen is very low.

    Wilhelm Reich talks about this. It leads to the dissociation between mind and body that Peat speaks about, and maybe the dissociation can only last so long. If the body isn't getting the oxygen it needs then eventually willpower will not be enough to sustain energy, and fatigue will set in.
     
  36. @lampofred what? Your spouting more nonsense lol. Orgasm does not lower metabolism. The rise in prolactin is transient and insignificant and can be mostly avoided with adequate fuel reserves. And its dependent on the level of physical activity involved- the same rise is seen with any physical exertion. Orgasm restriction is not a valid method for reducing prolactin. Not even gonna waste my time addressing any of the other BS you made up. Once again you're using rays paradigms, rays concepts and then just changing them to what you feel like with no actual evidence to back it up. Prolactin an aromatose inhibitor? What are you smoking? It’s been proven that orgasms lower cortisol so that’s a good (partial) explanation for craving for them rather than lowering estrogen via aromatase inhibition via prolactin increase (once again it doesn't inhibit aromatase). How would that mechanism even work considering that you think that orgasm lowers progesterone and progesterone is the body's primary anti-estrogenic molecule?

    @ecstatichamster So now you're changing the subject from CO2 lowering thyroid hormone? And im incorrect? Says you with no real evidence to back it up. The buteyko market has always been a hot bed for con men. The fact that they don’t even acknowledge that increases in oxidative metabolism can lower CP shows that they are ignorant charlatans. Reduced breathing IS simple, but the Buteyko people have distorted it to make a business out of it. `Reduced breathing is a tool that can be helpful, not a cure all like they make it out to be. It’s not even necessary to get “healthy”. Just like supplementing with progesterone isn't necessary to achieve good health but its helpful. You’re really doubling down saying that if you’re extremely sick you need buteyko to get better... Your a master buteyko practitioner aren’t you? Why are you having so many health issues than? Broda Barnes and Ray Peat really goofed with not teaching all the thousands of people they’ve cured the buteyko breathing method I guess. And have you ever used capnometer? How do you even know you have high CO2? At least youre not a fish oil salesman so ill give you that and reduced breathing is helpful so TECHNICALLY you're helping people.
     
  37. Not interesting in arguing so after this post I'm done and will agree to disagree.

    But orgasm does lower metabolism. Why else do you think it lowers cortisol? Your body lowers stress hormones because it needs less fuel as a result of a slowed metabolism. If you doubt me that much check your temperature several times for several days before having an orgasm and then an hour or so after having an orgasm (once the adrenaline of arousal wears off).

    I don't know if prolactin is an aromatase inhibitor in the sense that injecting prolactin would reduce conversion of androgens into estrogen, but in general anything that raises prolactin will reduce estrogen's effect. It's not that estrogen is actively being antagonized by anything like testosterone/progesterone, it's more that having high prolactin means you simply have less energy to respond to estrogen. Similar to how rocks cannot be estrogen dominant. They are lifeless.
     
  38. Without throwing shade on anyone, I do wanna chime in and say you’re right about sex. I’m not exactly sure why people feel that orgasms (especially with a partner) are bad...there are no studies showing down sides, especially for males. There’s a few studies (two I know of) that show abstinence from ejaculation increased baseline test by a high percentage for a short time (like 4 days I think) before dropping lower than original baseline afterward and the other showed that men who abstained from ejaculation for I think 2 weeks (honestly can’t remember exactly) and then had an orgasm raised baseline test by a higher than average figure but it was also a transient effect like the study prior. All the other studies show frequent sex reliably raises test, and frequent ejaculation is good for a man’s prostate health. Not to mention the penis is a muscle and if you don’t use it you lose it lol. In my experience having sex just boosts my libido higher in the hours and days after and my nocturnal tumescence is stronger after having sex than it is without. These anecdotal observations lead me to believe it’s boosting test and any estrogenic effects of completion are limited enough that the scales still tip in favor of testosterone dominance. Not to mention sex is one of our innate pathways to dopamine release (which is probably why the test raises).
     
  39. I have the same experience as you man. These debates are rather pointless though, since people who don't have the experience we do, can't possibly understand. I pretty much get it, I mean, after all I also don't believe anything I can't see or experience, so you can't blame someone who hasn't experienced something to understand or believe it.

    Honestly it's pretty similar to the great tryptophan/milk debate. Some people can handle tryptophan/milk, to others its devastating. Same deal with orgasm. I still firmly believe its not optimal even for someone healthy, but much like tryptophan, the healthier person is pretty much immune to any possible negative effects to tryptophan, orgasm, EMF's, and other possible stressors.

    EMF's are actually another great example of something people think you're crazy for believing has strong anti-metabolic effects unless you experience it yourself.
     
  40. @lampofred wow man I honestly feel bad for you, you spend so much time here and don't even grasp rays most basic concepts. "Your body lowers stress hormones because it needs less fuel as a result of a slowed metabolism." What the hell? Things that increase efficient oxidative metabolism tend to lower stress hormones... Thyroid hormone is the body's primary anti stress hormone and its the driver of oxidative metabolism... Andrenaline is often as much as 40 times higher in hypothyroidism due to a lack of T3. Lets rephrase your statement to highlight the insanity:" But *progesterone* does lower metabolism. Why else do you think it lowers cortisol?" oh wait but supplemental progesterone crushes cortisol and increases the rate of oxidative metabolism and can even induce hyperthyroidism. "you do not have energy to respond to estrogen (when prolactin is high)" What are you talking about? That makes no sense. When prolactin is high due to its primary actual cause (hypothyroidism) estrogen dominance is almost always involved and the estrogen is certainly doing damage. "Similar to how rocks cannot be estrogen dominant." wow just wow.
     
  41. Some with hyperthyroidism experience (acetyl) L-carnitine deficiency, which adds to fatigue.
     
  42. @ecstatichamster
    @lampofred
    Perhaps something your eating is bothering you. As an example collagen often doesnt agree with me and its not even a bacterial issue. It causes me to sweat pretty profusely from under my arms within 20 minutes of taking it with juice. Never have the problem with juice alone.
     
  43. Thank you.

    I don’t have trouble with most foods. I am playing with dairy now. That may cause problems although it never has.
     
  44. @ecstatichamster
    No worries.
    In my experience sometimes when you eat a food for a while your body adjusts to that experience as a set point and its only by removing it that you can determine you have an issue with it. It makes things really annoying to figure out lol. I know alot of people arent in favor of being restrictive but for a time, to help figure everything out, it can definetly help.
     
  45. You might try Cyruta plus from Standard Process for help with circulation.
     
  46. Thank you @CLASH

    There is also still a possibility that I have a virus or something I suppose.
     
  47. Need extra B1? As Dr. Marrs says in this video, the classic sign of thiamine deficiency is fatigue. She also says that someone could have other deficiencies going on, but they won't get resolved until thiamine deficiency is addressed first. She also tells this story of this one woman who has MS, and other ailments as she stated, that started to feel better taking 1 gram <big dose>of allithiamine a day, and now feels fantastic at 2 grams <holy mega dose and mega bucks batman> daily. Not that everyone needs this high amount if thiamine deficient, but just saying.

    I would think Peat'ers could me more susceptable to possible thiamine deficiency with the heavy carbs, table sugar, and coffee intake.

    This is a long'ish video, an hour and 8 minutes, for those who want to take the time to watch it. I think it's a great vid....

     
  48. You know what, @Rand56, I like your suggestion. It's easy to test and low risk. I took 1000mg of thiamine just now. Why not?
     
  49. Yeah man, why not. I've been dealing with fatigue for quite some time, and now have worked myself up to taking 200 mg's of allithiamine a day for about a week now. Can't say my fatigue has subsided yet, but who knows, I could need a higher dose, or just stay at this dose longer. I will tell you one thing, and I don't know if this is a relevant claim or not. I heard someone could be thiamine deficient if when pressing your fingers against your calf muscles, they will be tender and sore. Mine were exactly like this. Now as of yesterday when I did this test on me again, I had to press a lot harder with my fingers on my calf, to feel some soreness and tenderness, and even when I felt it, it wasn't as pronounced as it was before. Who knows, this could be a relevant claim.
     
  50. I like this suggestion and think thiamine supplementation would definitely be worth a shot because I have lactic acid build-up, but whenever I have tried supplementing B-vitamins in the past, I would always get gut issues. Are there any brands that are known to be not toxic?
     
  51. I haven't had any gut issues taking allithiamine. I have some gut issues with some particular foods, but none with this supplement.
     
  52. I agree, debates in general are pointless because for the most part both sides will never change their viewpoints. But FYI imo milk cannot be equated to EMF. EMF is bad for you no matter what, even if you don't notice it, but once you are healthy enough to absorb the calcium in milk (prolactin is low enough) and make the tryptophan go down the niacin pathway instead of the serotonin pathway, it becomes an irreplaceable food. Meat doesn't come close.
     
  53. I'd be weary of the belief that heart rate and body temp are the best indicators of health. Stress can increase body temperature and heart rate yet everyone here is conscious of the negative effects of chronic stress. I think it's worth researching into things like cause/effect between psychological wellbeing and health, and other things of that nature like vagal tone and ways of increasing resiliency to stress if one is pursuing health and happiness.

    A lot of people seem to think that certain foods have certain digestive properties, independent of their processing and the way they were eaten which is complete horseshit. Things like mood have a huge effect on digestion, stress inhibits proper digestive function so will lead to indigestion/endotoxin, regardless of the food being eaten. Eating easily digestable foods like dairy/fruit can help but even these foods can be poorly digested if stressed.
     
  54. For example, the people on this forum who seem to have improved significantly are those who develop their intuition for what foods/activities lower stress and improve physical comfort, manifested by a calm, positive mood, good digestion and energy/motivation to do things they enjoy. People still stuck in the belief that good health is characterised by boundless energy fuelled by excessive calories are in my opinion mistaken. They might be developing a psychological dependence to the manic feeling induced by high blood sugar/stress hormones.
     
  55. Stress makes my temperature fall.

    You can’t discount the work of Broda Barnes, at least I can’t. The results he had with 3000 patients was stupendous, and he compared it with the similar cohort in the Framingham longitudinal study. Maybe 3 heart attacks instead of hundreds, with the same type of patients. So many health benefits you can’t even fathom.

    That’s why I’m raising my temperatures with thyroid. I am very convinced that over time I will live longer and happier like this.

    Dr. Barnes found that you should wake up 97.8 to 98.2, and your temperatures rise to 98.6-99F.

    That is what I am aiming for.

    I’m not happy about the body aches, but I think it can be figure out. It’s a cleansing reaction. It’s temporary. It’s a bug. The range of possibilities isn’t that large. Having an issue like this doesn’t mean Dr. Broda Barnes was wrong.

    I’ve done many things in life that caused problems with my health, that I had to work through, before I got big benefits. Weight lifting was one example. Buteyko was another...
     
  56. There are food sensitivity tests..
     
  57. High adrenaline causes elevated pulse rate and body temperature.
     
  58. What symptoms are the ones bothering you and seem to be most dominant? A severe fatigue, low libido, lack of motivation?
    Do you have shortness of breath?
    Do you have faster heart beat when you go from sitting to standing?
    How is your appetite for example when you wake up are you hungry so you need to eat right away or no hunger for a couple of hours?
    The fatigue is it worse in morning or the evening or is it just constant?
    How many hours of sleep do you get? Do you consider it excessive sleeping? Do you wake up a lot during night?
    Do you dream?
    The fatigue is it in the body or is it in your head? Do you feel the fatigue in your forehead if you know what I mean?
    Thanks in advance for your answers.

    Bump do you have restless legs when you sit in front of a computer or similair? If so is this worse when you feel extra tired?
     
  59. This is why I like the idea of fasting through the morning until hunger is intense enough to require food consumption. In a similar vein to IF, but not trapping oneself in a physiologically stressful psychological box due to theories about meal timing windows. Just letting your own body be the guide.

    For the most part the body has cleaned up a lot of inflammation and bloat from the nightly fast. I always wake up most lean and with a flat stomach, and it’s usually only through poor food consumption that i notice myself bloating and clogging up my digestion causing inflammation and poor moods. As of late I’ve been establishing baselines in the morning and then playing with different foods and seeing how my body is going in terms of digestion, bloat, energy, etc...

    Been guilty of this, it’s just damn fun sometimes riding the highs. Paying attention to stomach contents/digestion trumps energy states. Stressing the stomach just to achieve some psychological state is a mistake imo.
     
  60. I have some of these. What does it mean?

    Fatigue (not severe; constant), no libido, no motivation, had shortness of breath when younger, not hungry for a while (tend to have lower appetite), get hungry in the evenings quickly after second meal, difficulty sleeping more than 4 hours, now waking up a lot, never remember my dreams (they also tend to be dim and hard to see), physical dragging (both body and head), and I shake my legs when in bed trying to get to sleep.
     
  61. It means low dopamine most likely from sub optimal iron. Have you had iron blood work done? Pretty sure if you experience all those symptoms you are sub optimal iron. If you experience problems even while you following a the peat protocol its likely something unpeaty is causing it. Having low iron constantly through out life is very unhealthy if you look at research they have much higher risk for heart failure (even more so than high iron) and ahlzeimers. I feel many peopl here struggle with similair problems low libido and fatigue. Just easier to diagnose it just knowing these other more minor symptoms that tend to be more iron deficiency tell signs.
     
  62. Fatigue is the main problem
    No shortness of breath
    No
    Poor appetite but I know why
    Worse in the morning but I know why
    I sleep a lot now but I used to not need much sleep. I don't wake up at all. I know why I need so much more sleep now
    I dream too much
    I don't really understand what you mean, but my entire body feels fatigued. Like my gas tank is at E.
    No restless legs.

    For all the "I know why" the common answer is that I think I have too much serotonin and too much acetylcholine due to a lack of GABA. I asked Dr. Peat about this and he said to make sure I am getting all trace minerals and vitamins and to avoid strong EMF, in addition to his more general recommendations of avoiding salt restriction, keeping calcium higher than phosphate, and checking temps/pulse rate and he also mentioned to check blood pressure.

    I think avoiding EMF will be the biggest game changer, I need to get serious about switching jobs and moving because no amount of diet/supplementation has been able to make me completely immune to high radiation exposure.

    I think a lot of people who feel better after supplementing iron might actually be deficient in gelatin. Gelatin increases iron use but doesn't actually contain iron, so it gives you the benefit of iron supplementation without the destructive oxidizing effect of actually adding more iron to your body.
     
  63. In my opinion symptoms you display seem very likely to be a lack of iron. Usually peat people use both aspirin, vitamin E and tend to do things that reduce or avoid iron. Then we have the hemochromatosis guys saying that ferritin should be kept at 30 when theres several studies showing heart failure is 2-3 times more likely if a person has lower than 30 and an increased risk between 30-100. Another example is hair loss. People with ferritin lower than 70 is strongly related to hair loss. The iron dangers in my opinion seems fairly over dramatized. In heart failure having lower ferritin was more associated with heart failure than having even 300-500 in ferritin. 100-300 according to study had no association at all. Most men here are hovering around 30-100 and the men on the lower end of that spectrum in my opinion would benefit from getting those numbers up at least to the higher end.

    For those saying iron is an oxidant iron supplementation actually reversed oxidative stress in people with low iron.

    Effect of iron supplementation on oxidative stress and antioxidant status in iron-deficiency anemia. - PubMed - NCBI

    Cytochrome C oxidase which is one of the most crucial proteins in humans is heavily dependent on iron.

    Many of the other strongest antioxidant enzymes in the body are very dependent of iron like gluthathione, SOD and ceruloplasmin.

    My point is not that all people should supplement iron as some people do have hemochromatosis and should activly take precautions to limit iron. But for other normal people this is likely not a problem. And keeping iron at the upper 100s seem to be the area most associated with lowest complications. There overall more markers needed to evaluate iron status than ferritin but I feel the iron dangers is very overstated.
     
  64. I think you are very wrong. Did you read this?
    Iron's Dangers
     
  65. Iron Therapy in Heart Failure: Ready for Primetime?

    - ”The prevalence of ID in HF patients has been reported as being up to 50 %, even in patients without anaemia.”

    - ”HF studies and in the most recent European Society of Cardiology HF guidelines, serum ferritin <100 μg/l has been used to diagnose absolute ID.”

    - ”Functional ID is defined as a serum ferritin level of 100–300 μg/l and a transferrin saturation of <20 %”

    - ”In a study of 157 HF patients by Okonko et al., the presence of ID was associated with an over threefold increase in mortality independent of haemoglobin.”

    - ”Additionally, non-anaemic patients with ID had double the risk of mortality compared to anaemic patients without ID, suggesting that ID is an independent risk factor in congestive HF patients. These results were replicated in a multicentre international cohort of 1,506 HF patients.”

    - ”ID has been shown to be independently associated with exercise capacity in HF patients. In a large study of 443 patients with HF who underwent cardiopulmonary exercise testing, patients with ID had lower peak oxygen consumption (VO2 max) and increased ventilator response to exercise compared to those without ID, representing a reduction in exercise capacity.[27] When combined with anaemia, the effects seem to be magnified.[28] However, absolute ID appears to be independently associated with reduced exercise capacity.”

    - ”More recently a study of 1,197 patients, including 229 with HF with mid-range ejection fraction and 72 with HFpEF, found that ID was associated with lower exercise capacity and increased mortality regardless of left ventricular ejection fraction (LVEF).[36] These results suggest that iron replacement may be of benefit in HFpEF and acute HF patients as well as HFrEF patients, and have led to the growing interest in iron replacement to improve outcomes.”

    - ”Bolger et al. reported on 16 patients given IV iron sucrose for up to 17 days and found that there was an improvement in exercise capacity and some symptomatic benefit.[42] The first randomised trial of IV iron, performed in 40 patients by Tobili et al., reported a reduction in NT-proBNP in HF patients with ID anaemia and renal impairment, as well as improvements in LVEF, 6-minute walk test and symptoms.[43] These results were further extended to include non-anaemic patients by Okonko et al., who again found an improvement in exercise capacity and symptoms after 16 weeks of IV iron compared to placebo.[44]”

    - ”Two meta-analyses of randomised trials of IV iron in HF patients with ID have been performed recently to summarise the results of these trials: a standard meta-analysis of five randomised trials including 509 patients and 342 controls,[48] and an individual patient data meta-analysis including 504 patients and 335 controls.[49] These studies have suggested a significant reduction in all-cause mortality, cardiovascular hospitalisation and HF hospitalisation with IV iron, as well as significant improvements NYHA class, 6-minute walk test and symptom questionnaire scores.”

    Blood iron, glutathione, and micronutrient levels and the risk of oral cancer. - PubMed - NCBI

    - ”These findings suggest that mild iron deficiency and low GSH levels, which are associated with increased oxidative stress.”

    Effect of iron supplementation on oxidative stress and antioxidant status in iron-deficiency anemia. - PubMed - NCBI

    - ”The extent of plasma lipid peroxidation was evaluated by measuring the levels of malondialdehyde and glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px), and the activities of superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase in 63 patients with iron-deficiency anemia before and after 6 wk of iron supplementation and at the time when body iron stores are saturated. After 6 wk of iron supplementation, a significant decrease of oxidative stress was observed in the treated subjects relative to controls (p<0.05).

    Iron Plays a Certain Role in Patterned Hair Loss

    - ”A total 210 patients with FPHL (n = 113) and MPHL (n = 97) with 210 healthy controls were analyzed. Serum ferritin concentration (FC) was lower in patients with FPHL (49.27 ± 55.8 µg/L), compared with normal healthy women (77.89 ± 48.32 µg/L) (P < 0.001). Premenopausal FPHL patients turned out to show much lower serum ferritin than age/sex-matched controls (P < 0.001). Among MPHL patients, 22.7% of them showed serum FC lower than 70 µg/L, while no one had serum FC lower 70 µg/L in healthy age matched males. These results suggest that iron may play a certain role especially in premenopausal FPHL. The initial screening of iron status could be of help for hair loss patients.”

    Dangers of High or Low Ferritin Levels & Normal Ranges - SelfHacked

    - ”Low Ferritin Causes ADHD
    Iron is associated with dopamine metabolism, and low iron levels might be associated with more significant impairment in dopamine function in subjects with ADHD [41].”

    - ”Subclinical hypothyroidism is associated with iron-deficiency anemia and lower ferritin levels ”

    - ”Statistical analyses show that ferritin levels below 50 ng/ml caused a 6.5-fold increased risk for fibromyalgia.”

    Anemia and risk of dementia in older adults: Findings from the Health ABC study


    - ”The other study found participants with anemia had a 60% increased hazard for developing Alzheimer disease dementia over 3.3 years among 881 older adults.”

    Iron deficiency alters expression of genes implicated in Alzheimer disease pathogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI

    - ”The non-anemic hippocampal iron-deficient mouse demonstrated upregulation of all 7 genes in this pathway from P5 to P25. Our results suggest a role for neonatal iron deficiency in dysregulation of genes that may set the stage for long-term neurodegenerative disease and that this may occur through a histone modification mechanism.”
     
  66. douglas is that you? ‍♂️
     
  67. Nah just dont buy some of peats ideas. I love what he have done and does but looking at the evidence things are not so black and white regarding many of peats ideas like estrogen, iron, omega 3, nitric oxide, cortisol and serotonin. Too much of any of these things are bad so is too much of many other things. Doesnt mean they dont have any biological value. I dont know exactly what I think or believe but I personally like to be skeptical and look at all the evidence. An example is that I feel like crap when I get low estrogen. eNos and nNos vs iNos etc... and same goes with iron and maybe even omega 3. Just because they are oxidative and harmful in excess does not mean they are ultimately harmful. Theres just so much conflicting data. My point is everyone is different and some people have problems with excess and some with deficiency thats why both of them even exist in the first place. ‍♂️
     
  68. Another example of what I mean is this study

    Association between treatment for erectile dysfunction and death or cardiovascular outcomes after myocardial infarction

    Results Forty-three thousand one hundred and forty-five men with mean age 64 (±10) years were included, of whom 7.1% had ED medication dispensed during a mean 3.3 years (141 739 person-years) of follow-up. Men with, compared with those without treatment for ED, had a 33% lower mortality (adjusted HR 0.67 (95%CI 0.55 to 0.81)), and 40% lower risk of hospitalisation for heart failure (HR 0.60 (95% CI 0.44 to 0.82)). There was no association between treatment with alprostadil and mortality. The adjusted risk of death in men with 1, 2–5 and >5 dispensed prescriptions of phosphodiesterase-5 inhibitors was reduced by 34% (HR 0.66 (95% CI 0.38 to 1.15), 53% (HR 0.47 (95% CI 0.26 to 0.87) and 81% (HR 0.19 (95% CI 0.08 to 0.45), respectively, when compared with alprostadil treatment.

    43 145 men. Thats a rather large study. Those who was on erectile dysfunction drugs was healthier.

    Conclusions Treatment for ED after a first MI was associated with a reduced mortality and heart failure hospitalisation. Only men treated with phosphodiesterase-5 inhibitors had a reduced risk, which appeared to be dose-dependent.

    How can anyone still say that nitric oxide is not beneficial and that PDE-5 inhibitors are bad.
     
  69. PDE5 inhibitors are in the cycle of Big Pharma when they can do no wrong. You have to know what they do and how they do it to realize that the studies are bull****.

    Same with iron. You need an explanatory theory, not just a study.

    I don’t know why you are here @Beefcake. You think iron and omega 3 are healthy. PDE5 inhibitors are good. You don’t appear to believe Dr. Peat’s research. His research has a perspective of 100 or 150 years of science and is not trendy study baloney.

    I would believe Dr. Peat’s work, not your findings. I realize that isn’t an argument. It is not. But honestly the science is very complicated and well beyond my abilities to understand, so I choose Dr. Peat and a lot of the wonderful people here, not you and your theories. Sorry. Again, I know that isn’t an argument but neither is posting some studies. Without perspective, these studies are bunk. One of your iron studies is for people with anemia, and of COURSE they may need iron. They may only need liver, actually, but good luck finding a study where they give anemic people liver.

    Also infections tend to drive down the appearance of iron in our bodies. The iron stores are just as high but not necessarily picked up in blood tests. This is well known.

    Dr. Peat has shown how iron accumulates in the body and over time as we age, iron is an enemy of good health. This is not something that is shown in many studies, but it follows 100 years of good science as Dr. Peat has interpreted it. Good luck finding a study on this. Good luck finding studies showing how PUFAS similarly accumulate as we age. Dr. Peat has shown it to me and I believe him. There are studies that back up the THEORY but not necessarily studies showing exactly that.
     
  70. If you want to see another example of Dr. Peat being right

    NYAS Publications
    Abstract: Controversy surrounds the role of iron (Fe) in atherosclerosis (ASCVD), mainly due to the inaccuracy of assessing body Fe stores with serum ferritin and transferrin saturation. Quantitative phlebotomy was used to test whether or not (a) Fe stores are increased in individuals at high risk for ASCVD and (b) Fe depletion to near‐deficiency (NID) levels is associated with reduction of risk factors for ASCVD. Thirty‐one carbohydrate‐intolerant subjects completed the study. Fe stores were within normal limits (1.5 ± 0.1 g). At NID, a significant increase of HDL‐cholesterol (p < 0.001) and reductions of blood pressure (p < 0.001), total and LDL‐cholesterol (p < 0.001), triglyceride (p < 0.001), fibrinogen (p < 0.001) and glucose and insulin responses to oral glucose loading (p < 0.001) were noted, while homocysteine plasma concentration remained unchanged. These effects were largely reversed by a 6‐month period of Fe repletion with reinstitution of Fe sufficiency. Thus, although individuals at high risk for ASCVD are not Fe‐overloaded, they seem to benefit, metabolically and hemodynamically, from lowering of body Fe to levels commonly seen in premenopausal females.
     
  71. Back to the original subject...I have been feeling crappy with minor but persistent body aches since my temps have come up to “normal” in relationship to what Dr. Broda Barnes has shown.

    @lampofred has been suffering very low energy levels.

    I can say for me, that my libido is higher than it’s been, and my erections are exceptionally good. And my last blood test showed high iron levels but since then I’ve given blood twice (in an 18 month time.)

    I am trying more thiamine (1000mg per day).
     
  72. Comparing one toxic drug with another
     
  73. First you say you rather believe theories than studies. Then you say I dont believe your theories. I do like theories and hypothesis as those ray has contributed with but a theory doesnt always fit reality like a glove. Thats why you conduct studies. To test a theory at see what results it yields. I’m not questioning ray peat as I do understand his concepts and theories vs mainstream science. I do appreciate the science behind it but sometimes that can tend to focus on one thing and ignore the larger picture and forget to take other things into account. I’d rather look at a study that has been done on thousands of people over years than just reading theories. Guess we are just different that way. Is it forbidden to be here and have an open discussion about peats work? I have to obey? Doesnt seem to be a healthy community then. More like a cult.
     
  74. @Beefcake what articles of Ray's have you actually read? Are you subscribed to his newsletter? Even the mainstream already knows that PDE5 inhibitors are unsafe:

    Viagra Linked to 522 Deaths

    FDA Reports Hearing Loss Linked To Viagra And Other PDE5 Inhibitors

    Viagra may permanently damage vision in some men, study finds

    Ray relies on huge body of research and cites a ton of studies. There's a lot of researchers who are in agreement with ray on various subjects but they don't have blogs or post on forums and their work doesn't make headlines.

    Still trying to find the whole study on this but the abstacts interesting:

    The nitric oxide hypothesis of aging - ScienceDirect
     
  75. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.ATV.17.11.2638

    Our data do not support the hypotheses that elevation of Fe stores increases or that a reduction of Fe stores by phlebotomy decreases the risk of coronary artery disease.

    Effect of iron deficiency anemia on the development of atherosclerosis in chicks. - PubMed - NCBI

    atherosclerosis-anemia groups of birds indicates that iron deficiency anemia did not markedly affect the development of atheroslcerosis; it did not offer any protection in chickens and, in fact, a slight potentiating effect was observed.
     
  76. Men compared to men not taking anything had a reduced risk. PGE1 did not have the effect as PDE-5
     
  77. @Beefcake I spent two years thinking that nitric oxide was good for you and used various methodologies to try to raise it. When I first heard of Ray’s position on it I thought it was stupid, I honestly thought he was insane. Took time, observation, experience, research and critical thinking for me to change my position. The fact that people recommending l-arginine supplementation to raise NO acknowledge that it can cause herpes outbreaks due to immunosuppression was what I’d call a red flag and was a small part of the changing process for me.
     
  78. Woah there, iron is needed, and is healthy by definition because it is an essential trace mineral, not too mention the most abundant trace mineral in humans, zinc being 2nd. And Peat is still right, iron accumulates in age. Except it doesnt happen in everyone. Some may grow older and older keeping large stores of iron that end up causing damage, yet there are many more that are chronically anemic because of digestive issues. It all depends on your sources of food, iron from meat is not like fortified iron in grains and cereals.

    Non-heme iron has terrible absorption rate while those with intestinal damage may not be able to absorb any non-heme iron. You are seriously trying to suggest that the elderly in retirement homes have iron overload? Or that all 50 year old men and women I am seeing daily are iron overloaded or even iron sufficient? I've seen the elderly in the retirement homes and I've seen what they eat. Salads and plants mostly, barely anything of substance.

    Digestion gets worse generally the older you get, reducing absorption of most nutrients, including iron. Most of the elderly I've seen need a good sized sirloin, not salad and fruit juice. Most of the middle aged people I know have very low iron diets and generally low meat diets, lack of animal foods. Most are either overweight/obese and lethargic/fatigue/low energy or underweight and sickly. Iron deficiency is the most common nutrition deficiency in the world. Sure you can argue that the WHO is full of ***t about that, then you would really be sticking your head in the sand.

    Doesnt mean we should be supplementing iron so readily. Its better obtained by having adequate vitamin D levels(which is also one of the more common deficiencies in the world) to reduce hepcidin as well as increasing intake of red meat. Vitamin C is also supposed to help. There is a reason the RDA is 8mg when we only excrete around 1mg a day(more if your a women, as well as there being many factors that increase iron loss). Athletes or anyone that does intense exercise regularly will lose more iron because of sweating and damage to GI tract caused by exercise as well as the fact that red blood cells break down faster in those who exercise.

    I still recall this one year of my life, I was 19. Doing heavy lifting workouts to pack on muscle(which I did, lots of) and a little sprinting each week. My meat consumption was virtually entirely lean chicken, no source of heme iron at all, and starches like potatoes and rice as well as soda, fruit juice and dairy. My endurance, stamina(not just for exercise but daily life) slowly got worse after 6 months into the year.

    I became very pale(I am usually very light colored, but got even more so) I was literally falling apart slowly to the point where I ended up so weak near the end of the year that I was stuck on my couch for literally an entire week, only moving to eat and use the bathroom, pure torture. Couldnt even sit up to watch TV had to lay down. I figured out that it was because I switched out red meat for chicken for so long I ended up anemic and my lab test at the doc confirmed it. It didnt even take me a year to have issues with iron because of how hard I worked out.

    Like I said, Peat can be right and it doesnt necessarily mean beefcake is wrong or that all pro-iron info is propaganda, to think that is to be paranoid and just plain unscientific. We cant just ignore the fact that iron deficiency does happen because Peat says we accumulate iron as we age as if this is a 100% true statement for everyone. It is incredibly easy to become iron deficient and very hard to recover from it because of the fact that iron absorption is incredibly low even with heme-iron.

    I generally trust Peat's judgement and his experience and plethora of knowledge, but I always try to verify what he says regardless, including when it came to iron. I did not find that his strict anti-iron belief was justified as I researched all the literature I could on iron.
     
  79. Dude this really sounds like you’re moving from sns dominance back to a proper balance of cns and psns control. Often times when I’m recovering from a training Mesocycle, the first 4 days of my off week I get very vivid dreams and feel very fatigued. It used to last for longer when my fatigue management was poor and I’d train for more consecutive weeks than I should have (essentially digging more of a hole to have to climb out of). The longer I went with out a break, the longer the eventual break took to get me back to feeling normal. A calorie deficit worsens all of that as well.

    The fact that you’re able to sleep well without interruption is a good sign, as well as your vivid dreaming. The fatigue is also a good sign as I’ve come to see sudden seemingly random fatigue as your body finally lowering your endorphins (stress opioids) and subsequently eliminating the numbing effect they have on ravaged nerves and tissues. This is where the vivid dreaming comes in, as this is imo a sign you’re beginning to “burn off” the excess that has been coursing your serum during your period of high stress. Physical, mental, and dietary stress can all cause heightened serotonin and the three combined are the perfect storm for total sns dominance. The dreaming and deep sleep combined with the low appetite tells me you’re on the tracj to recovery and this will most likely subside as long as you keep your stress levels low like you have apparently been doing :). I’ve felt all the same thing you do and recovered from it with good food, rest, and patience :)
     
  80. This makes sense to me. The fatigue gets worse the healthier I feel, if that makes any sense, as if my body is more aware of the damage that has been done to it and is preventing me from doing any more damage. I'm pretty sure I had extremely high serotonin for most of my life before finding Peat, so lowering serotonin might be unmasking the pain it has been numbing. I started chewing nicotine gum last night, and it strongly felt like it was pushing everything in the right direction, but the pain it unmasked, I guess by lowering serotonin, was almost unbelievable. But I think the nicotine is healing me.

    The only problem is that getting healthier is making me not be able to work hard at my job... But I already had plans to quit and move to avoid EMF, so at the end of the day it's just accelerating something I already was planning on doing. Guess I will just see where this Peat journey ultimately takes me.
     
  81. I had a similar experience with aspirin but it was so intense I haven’t used aspirin since lol. Slow and steady recovery is more sustainable than fast and hard. I felt so tanked it was all I could do to just sleep for 12hrs lol.
     
  82. These are all association studies. IMO the only way to actually refute Dr. Peat is to refer to his biological explanation as to why iron is bad for you and explain why that is wrong, which is not going to be as simple as just finding studies on Google.

    I respect your effort and agree that no one person is 100% infallible (for example, I personally disagree with Dr. Peat that salt is good for you ad libitum), but Dr. Peat is an extremely intelligent person who has done decades of research, and proving him wrong will require much more effort and research than taking several minutes to do few searches on Google for studies.
     
  83. Yeah I think caffeine, aspirin, and nicotine help to accelerate the healing of the damage caused by operating on stress hormones instead of thyroid, and in doing so they unmask the pain that has been suppressed by serotonin/endorphins.
     
  84. But I don't think Peat has said to avoid iron as he says to avoid PUFA. He recommends eating liver, oysters, or red meat+gelatin once or twice a week as a safe way to give you the iron you need for essential processes. What he does say is to avoid iron in fortified food or supplement form because that is excess that will cause oxidant damage and accelerated aging. What Beefcake seems to be saying on the other hand is to directly supplement iron if you are tired which is why ecstatichamster is disagreeing with him.
     
  85. I have not said anywhere to directly supplement iron. Please quote that in that case. What I said if you display a set of symptoms that could likely be related to insufficient iron then you should investigate that. In my opinion your symptoms sound very much like iron deficiency but you said you cleared that already. I have not said anything else except quoted studies that does show that normal ferritin could be in the 50-120 zone. And if you look at the studies i quoted most people that have 50 or lower tend to display some signs of lack of iron. How you want to increase those levels are completely up to you. Ray has not even mentioned what he thinks is a healthy level of ferritin but likely people assume on the lower end. I think on a scale from 30-300 50-100 does not seem excessive..
     
  86. We have seen how vitamin A can increase iron stores without supplementation. There is iron in the body that can be utilized and vitamin A would be best tried before iron supplements

    The Influence of Vitamin A Supplementation on Iron Status

    -
     
  87. Ok, sorry I didn't understand what you were saying. But in my defense, when you write stuff like this

    and when you phase your posts in a way that seems like you are arguing against Dr. Peat (who never recommended avoiding iron-rich foods like liver, oysters, red meat with gelatin, and only recommends avoiding iron fortified foods and iron supplementation) it strongly sounds like you are recommending iron supplementation.
     
  88. Well yes supplemental iron should be avoided at all cost, if an iron deficiency is not severe, changing the diet will eventually correct it but if someone has a chronic iron deficiency that has not been dealt with for a long time, an iron rich diet will not work, at least, it will take too long to work. A person basically has 2 options if they want to deal with a severe iron deficiency as swift as possible.

    Supplement high doses of iron like iron glycinate(high dosing is necessary which will disrupt the gut big time while taking it as it will feed bacteria and this can exacerbate serotonin, endotoxin, etc during the time of supplementing) or drink animal blood(which many may not like the idea of doing, all though it works best), which is not only very high in iron, but has every nutrient in it. There is also more pricey blood derived heme iron supplements which are better. Heme-iron does not feed bacteria like non heme iron as it is protected by proteins.

    It is advised always to only supplement iron when blood tests show iron deficiency and supplementation is recommended by the GP. It may temporarily cause problems with the gut if its non heme, but fixing the iron deficiency outweighs the temporary gut disturbance.
     
  89. Im trying to make a powerful point to make people rethink and at least try to investigate if that is the case. Im not here trying to dissprove peat. Thats not my intention. I just know that other people had similair symptoms and problems like you and have benefited from boosting their iron stores. So my intention is only to try and help you. But when I get hammered with people saying im nuts you sorta go into a defensive state aswell and try to dissprove that everything might not always be the way it seems to be. Sorry aswell. My intention originally was just to try and help. Im not trying to discredit peat because i acknowledge his work and agree 100% with everything he says at least theory wise that I can sure say I do understand his reasoning and the science/studies he quotes. Its just that there many other studies with conflicting data on quite a few subjects. If they are influenced by big pharma or not I cant tell but then that would kind of discredit a lot of studies. Its easy to say that one study that goes inline with your beliefs are real and another is fake. Im just here to learn thats all. And questioning things is in my opinion beat way to develop.
     
  90. Dr. Peat has the perspective of 100 years of science. That is why he is always so keen on the history of points he makes — it is critical to see where “we” are at and how we got here. That shows why so many studies are NOT done, and others ARE. You can’t just use studies. I always point out that 17 studies showed that HRT was good for women using fake drug company progesterone analogs...until the first really good study came out and physicians finally told their female patients to STOP taking HRT. Decades of studies were wrong.

    I read studies for hours at a time and I know that you can’t just look at studies unless you are prepared to read the whole study, and also understand the context.

    Most studies are bogus and discredited. Only perhaps 2% are worthy.
     
  91. Or they are so subjective to context they may not apply lol. Like you said, the studies have to be read and understood. The latter half is where many of us lack.
     
  92. just because your temp is high at 99 doesn't mean you have a high metabolism
    You actually need to get a capnometer to test your co2 and test it several times during the day to get an average theres ones that will track it for you while you sleep as well and lactate meter would be useful as well and checking your oxygen consumption there are several places you can go and have this checked.
    it will take you years to actually change your metabolism or co2 set point it is not an easy thing to do and for pufa you will need to take a mead acid test to see if your depleted and that takes 4+ years of avoiding it eating 2 grams or 4 grams is not avoiding it

    If you were truly at a high metabolism you would have an abundance of useful energy
     
  93. I completely agree. I have a high pulse and temperature, but all of my glucose is going to lactic acid instead of CO2. I'm sure my CO2 levels are abysmal.

    Maybe I have to do what @tca300 did and really go hardcore. Fruits, skim milk, and hydrogenated coconut oil. No cheese, whole milk, butter, eggs, or any other source of fat.
     
  94. you dont have to go extreme to see benefits. But measuring things is useful because you can see whats going on and do something about it to get out of the stress
    example I was taking t3 temps really good pulse at 80 but I felt like crap like I was going to pass out no energy at all and my movements were slow. My systolic was low like 100 I Immediately put like a tablespoon of salt in a glass of orange juice and it brought me right back up again and felt great instantly. My calcium levels could of gone to high and caused volume depletion I was drinking like a gallon of milk at that time and some bicarb

    A lot of people are deplete in magnesium need to take that stuff everyday it's one of the main things that regulates calcium and k2
     
  95. @mimmo123 good stuff! Do we have a metabolic all-star in our midst? "this happened to me years ago I was drinking a gallon of milk for like 4 years" woah, very cool (that you've been at it that long). I'm diggin through your old posts and takin notes. Is there a magnesium supplement that you think its up to snuff?

    EDIT:i believe I found the answer- magnoil
     
  96. I took today 1200 mg of thiamine, divided in 4 doses.
    Felt a little bit drowsy and had a light headache.
    Tomorrow, depending how I feel, will take the same dose or will increase. We`ll see what happens...
     
  97. haha nahh not really, Yes magnoil is a miracle I use that and Ace magnesium oil on my skin and occasionally Epsom salt baths but not often
    Magnesium Oil Directions and Info – ACE version Magnesium Oil by Robert von Sarbacher
     
  98. I’ve taken 2000mg today and yesterday. Didn’t notice an effect.
     
  99. I have never take 2g in a day but I feel like if I did I would legitimately have an LSD trip. Surprised you feel nothing. You should at least have increased CO2, if you had slightly blocked nostrils or completely blocked its supposed to clear which is a direct cause of CO2.

    I also get a strong improvement in memory and cognition that improves after daily administration and reduces fatigue considerably. Its supposed to be a nootropic past 300mg, 2g should have given you improved brain function. You might just need daily administration or could be lack of mangesium/magnesium retention.