High Temps And Pulse But Feeling Fatigued

[lampofred]

@lampofred you dont think its from NoFap? Are you having any sex to fulfill your needs? Are you still "drowning" yourself in progesterone? If so there might lie your answer. Hans Selye noticed that if he gave rats an very high dose of progesterone it would put them into a completely comatose state- he thought they were dead.

I don't think I've ever been healthy enough to consistently have an actual sex drive. I can count on my fingers that number of times I've had an actual sex drive, but since methylene blue pretty much eliminates my libido, the majority of my "sex drive" has been from nitric oxide. So I don't think the low energy is from NoFap.

I don't take high doses of progesterone anymore unless I am just extremely stressed, but progesterone actually increases my energy (and also increases my sex drive), so I don't think the fact that I used to take lots of progesterone when I was stressed has anything to do with it either.

Dr. Peat also said that he thinks low brain progesterone is involved in fatigue because progesterone is what allows you to relax, turn off energy expenditure, and accumulate energy so that you can work again in the future. So progesterone isn't the cause of fatigue, it's actually too much brain estrogen preventing me from being able to accumulate enough energy that is at fault.

 

[lampofred]

@ecstatichamster through what mechanism does buteyko breathing cause hypothyroidism? CO2 opposes everything that inhibits thyroid function. If you were doing 2 hours of exercise a day like some coaches recommend there is your answer in regards to thyroid suppression. Lots of people trying to increase their CP (at all costs) make themselves hypothyroid because increasing CO2 production (via thyroid hormone) usually increases the rate of ventilation and lowering CO2 production can often lower the rate of ventilation .

no I wasn't. It's a fact and it's obvious when we work with students. I didn't recognize it for years. Buteyko increasing CO2 lowers thyroid.[/QUOTE]

I think the explanation for this might be very simple... Peat has said the purpose of thyroid/metabolism is to make CO2. So if you are increasing CO2 via other means then there is no need for your body to maintain a high metabolism and unnecessarily burn through vitamins and minerals.

 

[Cirion]

@ilikecats I know you and others on these forums are obsessed with the idea that sex increases androgens but it has never proven true for me. I have always done nofap myself the two times when I was at my healthiest, most driven, most androgenic, strongest in the gym etc etc etc.

Actually, my health degraded pretty fast after getting into my relationship a couple years ago and I literally could feel the serotonin in my body the first evening I had with the new gf, I didn't like it, after being used to nofap. Sex is drastically over rated. Or at least, the "O" part of sex. Abstaining from that like some people are doing via karezza probably does increase androgens in the long run.

 

[lampofred]

@ilikecats I know you and others on these forums are obsessed with the idea that sex increases androgens but it has never proven true for me. I have always done nofap myself the two times when I was at my healthiest, most driven, most androgenic, strongest in the gym etc etc etc.

Actually, my health degraded pretty fast after getting into my relationship a couple years ago and I literally could feel the serotonin in my body the first evening I had with the new gf, I didn't like it, after being used to nofap. Sex is drastically over rated. Or at least, the "O" part of sex. Abstaining from that like some people are doing via karezza probably does increase androgens in the long run.

I think sex does increase androgenic activity but it does it at the expense of progesterone. NoFap is a stimulant. Stimulants in general increase both estrogen and progesterone but decrease testosterone. If you can lower nitric oxide/increase CO2 then stimulants will increase only progesterone and not estrogen and will not lower testosterone.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think sex does raise androgens. There are some studies on it.

I practice sex that does not emphasize orgasm, and it is 100 times a better than anything else in life. I used to think sex was over rated too...but now it’s the greatest thing in the world.

 

[Cirion]

I think sex does raise androgens. There are some studies on it.

I practice sex that does not emphasize orgasm, and it is 100 times a better than anything else in life. I used to think sex was over rated too...but now it’s the greatest thing in the world.

Yes, this way you get the benefits but without the drawbacks. Benefits of both nofap and sex combined when you do it that way. Only way I will ever do it in the future probably.

 

[ilikecats]

@lampofred alright. Yeah obviously having low progesterone levels will hurt energy levels but peat has mentioned being completely knocked unconcious by a one gram dose of progesterone. I wasn’t sure how much you were taking. But it doesn’t sound like your taking nearly that much so I doubt progesterone is the issue.

@Cirion im not “obsessed” but I like science and facts and called you out when you were lying about the effects of sex on the organism. “Probably does increase androgens in the long run” lol no mechanisms no studies no science yet so much confidence. You feel better abstaining than fine but let’s not alter science just to conform to your experience.

@ecstatichamster I can’t see that being true. That’s not how CO2 works. People living at high altitude retain more CO2 and have higher thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid is needed to synthesize progesterone from cholesterol- does supplementing Progesterone lower thyroid hormone levels? (no it increases them). CO2 is thermogenic I’ve increased my temps by one degree after a sixty minutes bag breathing session I can’t see how it’s behind your (former) cold hands and feet. I’m not sure what your doing or why you would needed a “coach”. Excessive breath holding is probably hypoxic but breath holding in small amounts should be okay but I personally just practice reduced breathing. The whole CP obsession is misguided though since increasing the metabolism lowers the CP. The problems with “buteyko” are due to their reductionism and need for neat charts and guidelines to create a “system” and not understanding some basic things about human physiology. Reduced breathing is nothing ground breaking and it’s been practiced for thousands of years before buteyko put his name on it (I’m assuming you know that but still). Have you seen an increase in

“I think sex does increase androgenic activity but it does it at the expense of progesterone“- lampofred lol what? You just make up so much BS “salt promotes serontonin dominance” -bastardizing ray peats ideas. There’s just no hope for some of you guys. Cirion went as far to say that partner sex is very serotonergic: “i could literally feel the serotonin in my body” and EH says that CO2 lowers thyroid hormone levels. This thread lol unfortunately this seems to be typical.

 

[Cirion]

@ecstatichamster correct me if wrong, but aren't your T levels like 900 ng/dl from doing karezza?

im not “obsessed” but I like science and facts and called you out when you were lying about the effects of sex on the organism. “Probably does increase androgens in the long run” lol no mechanisms no studies no science yet so much confidence. You feel better abstaining than fine but let’s not alter science just to conform to your experience.

Clearly they aren't facts man if the so called science does not hold true for me lol. We all know how factual "science" is, it all depends on who you listen to and who did the study. That's why we are in the health mess we are in since "science" and "facts" say that SFA, sugar, etc is bad for you and PUFA and starch is good for you, as is fasting and caloric restriction. I also like science and facts, but there's "facts" and then there's actual facts. when the so called science and so called facts don't jive with my personal experience, then I throw them out. In fact, the truth is more important to me than anything. That's why I have a mega-thread and mega-depository of data to truly determine what's true, and I'm slowly getting to the bottom of just that. Reading peat's articles and such has helped me determine many factors that matter, and it turns out he's right on most of them, but I only believe that because I have the data that clearly shows it to be true, not just taking his word on it. Relying solely on "science and facts" is an appeal to authority and we should be cautious of this. I put in quote marks, because I'm absolutely for real science, not junk science.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion ”from doing karrenza” sure... he has high testosterone levels (not even out of normal range) and sex CAN help keep T levels up but it’s not determining factor (any sex can doesn’t have to be karrenza). Dude you don’t even understand how reality works. The science shows that PUFA is bad. Wow really groundbreaking stuff your coming up with those threads. You act like any of your findings are new.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion ”from doing karrenza” sure... he has high testosterone levels (not even out of normal range) and sex CAN help keep T levels up but it’s not determining factor (any sex can doesn’t have to be karrenza). Dude you don’t even understand how reality works. The science shows that PUFA is bad. Wow really groundbreaking stuff your coming up with those threads. You act like any of your findings are new.

lol you crack me up bro.

I never said I was coming up with "new" science or anything. What I am doing is proving that some of what Ray said is actually true. I do not trust anything I can not personally see or experience. Not even from Ray. I've been burned too many times by "Experts" so now the only "Expert" I trust is me. I am my own expert, my own coach, my own trainer etc... That's all I'm saying now. Looking into studies is fun, but ultimately useless unless you can apply it to your own life. That's my point. My own "Study" I do with myself is truth because I can see and experience it. Nothing else is truth to me anymore. Or it least its truth for me, which is all that matters anyway.

 

[Runenight201]

I think it’d be helpful if you provided more information such as your diet, supps, sleep quality, occupation, hobbies, and relationships.

Imo diet is the most important factor, so at least starting with that.

I know it’s been beaten to death here on this forum, but I’ve never once felt fatigued from coffee, sugar, and milk, only glorious, at times manic energy =P. I easily become fatigued from an inappropriate diet, which is usually because I ate too much starch, ESPECIALLY if it’s white rice. Egg yolk for sex drive, animal fat soup for digestión, maybe try having a beer or two just to relax, smoke some tobacco (warning this will fatigue), listen to some good music, sit outside in nature, say some prayers/meditate, cultivate some mind-body awareness, get away from the “I” for a bit.

 

[lampofred]

“I think sex does increase androgenic activity but it does it at the expense of progesterone“- lampofred lol what? You just make up so much BS “salt promotes serontonin dominance” -bastardizing ray peats ideas. There’s just no hope for some of you guys. Cirion went as far to say that partner sex is very serotonergic: “i could literally feel the serotonin in my body” and EH says that CO2 lowers thyroid hormone levels. This thread lol unfortunately this seems to be typical.

I'm not making anything up randomly. I try to explain my thought processes, plus I try to say "I think" as much as I can whenever I say something that hasn't directly been said by RP.

For sex, I was talking about orgasm specifically when I said it increases androgenic activity (not saying it directly increases testosterone, jsut that it increase androgenic activity) and decreases progesterone. RP has said prolactin inhibits progesterone production in mammals, so logically anything that will increase prolactin will lower the activity of progesterone. Prolactin is also known to be an aromatase inhibitor (I think this is why prolactin goes up when estrogen is high, it is a protective reaction against the estrogen), which is why people who are stressed crave orgasm. The orgasm reduces nitric oxide, stress, estrogen, by slowing your metabolism, but at the cost of higher prolactin and lower progesterone, which shifts the balance away from progesterone/estrogen activity to androgen activity. This is why RP says stimulants are "estrogenic", anything that raises raises metabolism without raising CO2 to reduce the need for nitric oxide will lower testosterone and increase estrogen. So orgasm is basically the opposite of a stimulant, it increases CO2 and testosterone but slows metabolism and lowers progesterone. Thyroid and to some extent coffee are the only things that raise metabolism while also raising CO2.

For salt, RP says it is anti adrenaline, and anything that is anti adrenaline by definition will raise GABA and serotonin since GABA and adrenaline, serotonin and adrenaline are inversely correlated. As RP mentions, if you are deficient in salt, you will have insomnia, and increasing salt intake will increase GABA and allow you to sleep deeply. But salt intake doesn't raise GABA ad libitum, otherwise no one would have any anxiety or sleep troubles at all, we would all just keep drinking salt water. The amount of GABA you can produce is related to the amount of CO2 you can tolerate. You can't force more GABA production than your metabolism is capable of, so when you exceed your salt tolerance you start increasing serotonin instead of GABA.

 

[ecstatichamster]

@ecstatichamster I can’t see that being true. That’s not how CO2 works. People living at high altitude retain more CO2 and have higher thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid is needed to synthesize progesterone from cholesterol- does supplementing Progesterone lower thyroid hormone levels? (no it increases them). CO2 is thermogenic I’ve increased my temps by one degree after a sixty minutes bag breathing session I can’t see how it’s behind your (former) cold hands and feet. I’m not sure what your doing or why you would needed a “coach”. Excessive breath holding is probably hypoxic but breath holding in small amounts should be okay but I personally just practice reduced breathing. The whole CP obsession is misguided though since increasing the metabolism lowers the CP. The problems with “buteyko” are due to their reductionism and need for neat charts and guidelines to create a “system” and not understanding some basic things about human physiology. Reduced breathing is nothing ground breaking and it’s been practiced for thousands of years before buteyko put his name on it (I’m assuming you know that but still). Have you seen an increase in

You are incorrect. If a person is life threateningly sick, they need the Buteyko method to get better. It is a complex process. Just as someone coming here to “do Peating” finds a lot of complexity. Dr. Peat doesn’t have a manual and is not prescriptive but I know that most people who are very sick need a lot of coaching and guidance.

It is NOT simple and I’ve coached a lot of people with VERY serious life-threatening or fatal diseases. The idea of “reductionism” being wholly bad is itself reductionist — do you get the irony of your grand statements railing against grand statements?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I am paying attention to this thread because I face similar problems. I have body aches and just don’t feel that wonderful and my waking temperatures are for the first time “normal” according to Dr. Broda Barnes...

I can relate to @lampofred and what he is going through.

I appreciate everyone’s ideas, I really do. I do think it’s fine to say “my experience is” but to insist somehow that this is a rule, that someone is “doing it wrong” if they don’t have a similar experience, is not facing the reality of how each of us is so different.

I have high CO2. I sleep well. I eat reasonably well: very low PUFA, high calcium to phosphorus ratio, lowish iron. Plenty of collagen.

Why am I like @lampofred feeling crappy?

 

[Cirion]

I am paying attention to this thread because I face similar problems. I have body aches and just don’t feel that wonderful and my waking temperatures are for the first time “normal” according to Dr. Broda Barnes...

I can relate to @lampofred and what he is going through.

I appreciate everyone’s ideas, I really do. I do think it’s fine to say “my experience is” but to insist somehow that this is a rule, that someone is “doing it wrong” if they don’t have a similar experience, is not facing the reality of how each of us is so different.

I have high CO2. I sleep well. I eat reasonably well: very low PUFA, high calcium to phosphorus ratio, lowish iron. Plenty of collagen.

Why am I like @lampofred feeling crappy?

Broda barnes says 98.2F is acceptable wake temperature. I disagree. What's yours? I never feel good unless my waking temp is at 98.6. I know we've had this discussion before, but I stand by this statement 110%. 0.4F may not sound like a big difference, but literally my energy is 2-3x or more with that 0.4F difference. Yes, it's that big of a difference. It's a night and day difference. NO comparison.

 

[lampofred]

I think Buteyko is a really good thing in general and I do want to find a legitimate coach and start it. But I think a big problem with it is that it induces hypoxia. The amount of oxygen we need is correlated to our mental activity. If we turn off the mind as with sedatives, then CO2 can freely elevate without causing hypoxia and lead to several health benefits. But elevating CO2 by forcibly breathing less and not naturally lowering mental activity means that cells will experience hypoxia and the body will become rigid because the cells will not be getting the oxygen they need. Yes, CO2 increases oxygen delivery, but at 30-40 CP, there is barely any oxygen to power cells unless mental activity is very low and as a result, requirement for oxygen is very low.

Wilhelm Reich talks about this. It leads to the dissociation between mind and body that Peat speaks about, and maybe the dissociation can only last so long. If the body isn't getting the oxygen it needs then eventually willpower will not be enough to sustain energy, and fatigue will set in.

 

[ilikecats]

@lampofred what? Your spouting more nonsense lol. Orgasm does not lower metabolism. The rise in prolactin is transient and insignificant and can be mostly avoided with adequate fuel reserves. And its dependent on the level of physical activity involved- the same rise is seen with any physical exertion. Orgasm restriction is not a valid method for reducing prolactin. Not even gonna waste my time addressing any of the other BS you made up. Once again you're using rays paradigms, rays concepts and then just changing them to what you feel like with no actual evidence to back it up. Prolactin an aromatose inhibitor? What are you smoking? It’s been proven that orgasms lower cortisol so that’s a good (partial) explanation for craving for them rather than lowering estrogen via aromatase inhibition via prolactin increase (once again it doesn't inhibit aromatase). How would that mechanism even work considering that you think that orgasm lowers progesterone and progesterone is the body's primary anti-estrogenic molecule?

@ecstatichamster So now you're changing the subject from CO2 lowering thyroid hormone? And im incorrect? Says you with no real evidence to back it up. The buteyko market has always been a hot bed for con men. The fact that they don’t even acknowledge that increases in oxidative metabolism can lower CP shows that they are ignorant charlatans. Reduced breathing IS simple, but the Buteyko people have distorted it to make a business out of it. `Reduced breathing is a tool that can be helpful, not a cure all like they make it out to be. It’s not even necessary to get “healthy”. Just like supplementing with progesterone isn't necessary to achieve good health but its helpful. You’re really doubling down saying that if you’re extremely sick you need buteyko to get better... Your a master buteyko practitioner aren’t you? Why are you having so many health issues than? Broda Barnes and Ray Peat really goofed with not teaching all the thousands of people they’ve cured the buteyko breathing method I guess. And have you ever used capnometer? How do you even know you have high CO2? At least youre not a fish oil salesman so ill give you that and reduced breathing is helpful so TECHNICALLY you're helping people.

 

[lampofred]

@lampofred what? Your spouting more nonsense lol. Orgasm does not lower metabolism. The rise in prolactin is transient and insignificant and can be mostly avoided with adequate fuel reserves. And its dependent on the level of physical activity involved- the same rise is seen with any physical exertion. Orgasm restriction is not a valid method for reducing prolactin. Not even gonna waste my time addressing any of the other BS you made up. Once again you're using rays paradigms, rays concepts and then just changing them to what you feel like with no actually evidence to back it up. Prolactin an aromatose inhibitor? What are you smoking? It’s been proven that orgasms lower cortisol so that’s a good (partial) explanation for craving for them rather than lowering estrogen via aromatase inhibition via prolactin increase (once again it doesn't inhibit aromatase). How would that mechanism even work considering that you think that orgasm lowers progesterone and progesterone is the body's primary anti-estrogenic molecule?

Not interesting in arguing so after this post I'm done and will agree to disagree.

But orgasm does lower metabolism. Why else do you think it lowers cortisol? Your body lowers stress hormones because it needs less fuel as a result of a slowed metabolism. If you doubt me that much check your temperature several times for several days before having an orgasm and then an hour or so after having an orgasm (once the adrenaline of arousal wears off).

I don't know if prolactin is an aromatase inhibitor in the sense that injecting prolactin would reduce conversion of androgens into estrogen, but in general anything that raises prolactin will reduce estrogen's effect. It's not that estrogen is actively being antagonized by anything like testosterone/progesterone, it's more that having high prolactin means you simply have less energy to respond to estrogen. Similar to how rocks cannot be estrogen dominant. They are lifeless.

 

[Jon]

@lampofred what? Your spouting more nonsense lol. Orgasm does not lower metabolism. The rise in prolactin is transient and insignificant and can be mostly avoided with adequate fuel reserves. And its dependent on the level of physical activity involved- the same rise is seen with any physical exertion. Orgasm restriction is not a valid method for reducing prolactin. Not even gonna waste my time addressing any of the other BS you made up. Once again you're using rays paradigms, rays concepts and then just changing them to what you feel like with no actual evidence to back it up. Prolactin an aromatose inhibitor? What are you smoking? It’s been proven that orgasms lower cortisol so that’s a good (partial) explanation for craving for them rather than lowering estrogen via aromatase inhibition via prolactin increase (once again it doesn't inhibit aromatase). How would that mechanism even work considering that you think that orgasm lowers progesterone and progesterone is the body's primary anti-estrogenic molecule?

@ecstatichamster So now you're changing the subject from CO2 lowering thyroid hormone? And im incorrect? Says you with no real evidence to back it up. The buteyko market has always been a hot bed for con men. The fact that they don’t even acknowledge that increases in oxidative metabolism can lower CP shows that they are ignorant charlatans. Reduced breathing IS simple, but the Buteyko people have distorted it to make a business out of it. `Reduced breathing is a tool that can be helpful, not a cure all like they make it out to be. It’s not even necessary to get “healthy”. Just like supplementing with progesterone isn't necessary to achieve good health but its helpful. You’re really doubling down saying that if you’re extremely sick you need buteyko to get better... Your a master buteyko practitioner aren’t you? Why are you having so many health issues than? Broda Barnes and Ray Peat really goofed with not teaching all the thousands of people they’ve cured the buteyko breathing method I guess. And have you ever used capnometer? How do you even know you have high CO2? At least youre not a fish oil salesman so ill give you that and reduced breathing is helpful so TECHNICALLY you're helping people.

Without throwing shade on anyone, I do wanna chime in and say you’re right about sex. I’m not exactly sure why people feel that orgasms (especially with a partner) are bad...there are no studies showing down sides, especially for males. There’s a few studies (two I know of) that show abstinence from ejaculation increased baseline test by a high percentage for a short time (like 4 days I think) before dropping lower than original baseline afterward and the other showed that men who abstained from ejaculation for I think 2 weeks (honestly can’t remember exactly) and then had an orgasm raised baseline test by a higher than average figure but it was also a transient effect like the study prior. All the other studies show frequent sex reliably raises test, and frequent ejaculation is good for a man’s prostate health. Not to mention the penis is a muscle and if you don’t use it you lose it lol. In my experience having sex just boosts my libido higher in the hours and days after and my nocturnal tumescence is stronger after having sex than it is without. These anecdotal observations lead me to believe it’s boosting test and any estrogenic effects of completion are limited enough that the scales still tip in favor of testosterone dominance. Not to mention sex is one of our innate pathways to dopamine release (which is probably why the test raises).

 

[Cirion]

Not interesting in arguing so after this post I'm done and will agree to disagree.

But orgasm does lower metabolism. Why else do you think it lowers cortisol? Your body lowers stress hormones because it needs less fuel as a result of a slowed metabolism. If you doubt me that much check your temperature several times for several days before having an orgasm and then an hour or so after having an orgasm (once the adrenaline of arousal wears off).

I don't know if prolactin is an aromatase inhibitor in the sense that injecting prolactin would reduce conversion of androgens into estrogen, but in general anything that raises prolactin will reduce estrogen's effect. It's not that estrogen is actively being antagonized by anything like testosterone/progesterone, it's more that having high prolactin means you simply have less energy to respond to estrogen. Similar to how rocks cannot be estrogen dominant. They are lifeless.

I have the same experience as you man. These debates are rather pointless though, since people who don't have the experience we do, can't possibly understand. I pretty much get it, I mean, after all I also don't believe anything I can't see or experience, so you can't blame someone who hasn't experienced something to understand or believe it.

Honestly it's pretty similar to the great tryptophan/milk debate. Some people can handle tryptophan/milk, to others its devastating. Same deal with orgasm. I still firmly believe its not optimal even for someone healthy, but much like tryptophan, the healthier person is pretty much immune to any possible negative effects to tryptophan, orgasm, EMF's, and other possible stressors.

EMF's are actually another great example of something people think you're crazy for believing has strong anti-metabolic effects unless you experience it yourself.