High metabolism from peating?

darkchocolate

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Hello!

I've been lurking this forum for a long time and have learned SO much from you all - so thanks for that! :)

I just have a few questions and any help would be greatly appreciated.

The first pertains to appetite. I'm assuming that when you raise thyroid that you need to eat more. I'm seriously SO HUNGRY allll day long. And I find that if I don't eat at least 2700 - 3000 cals a day (sometimes I can eat even more) I'll feel like utter crap and will also experience insomnia. I am a 5'5 female and weigh about 115-117 pounds. Granted, I do some exercise every other day. But like seriously?! Is this normal and should I continue eating to appetite?
Do coffee, aspirin, thyroid and B vitamins increase the need for calories THIS much?
I was a huge calorie restricter before and I can't believe how much I need now in order to function like a normal human as opposed to what I used to eat.

The next question is about acne...but it seems like I have hormonal acne paired with a weird rash type on my neck, chest and forehead. I find that everytime I drink coffee and take aspirin it flares up. So I have begun supplementing with a B-complex as I feel it's nutrient related (maybe also a sluggish liver). I have not tried eating liver yet...but am going to have some today.

Can you balance hormones by just taking thyroid? I am low on progesterone (and also low on money haha) so it would be great if that's all I need. If not, I guess I will need to purchase some progest-e.

I have been taking Natural Sources Bovine Thyroid for the past two weeks and I feel a lot better. I seem to be tolerating it well. Is this ok to take?

Currently I am eating lots of fruit, juice, eggs, coconut oil/milk, honey, cheese, organ meats, fish and shellfish. I definitely break out way more when I eat dairy (no bloating) so I'm probably going to stop eating it for awhile. I have also been consuming lots of sugar in my coffee and I want to replace that with fruit for nutrients.

Also, how is dried mango? My calorie needs are so high that I need things that are calorie dense but also don't fill me up to the point of bursting...
 

Blossom

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:welcome darkchocolate. High metabolism from peating? Yes. That's what we are all working toward here on the forum. I would definitely continue eating to appetite! Thanks for sharing.
 

aguilaroja

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darkchocolate said:
I'm seriously SO HUNGRY allll day long. And I find that if I don't eat at least 2700 - 3000 cals a day (sometimes I can eat even more) I'll feel like utter crap and will also experience insomnia ..
I was a huge calorie restricter before and I can't believe how much I need now in order to function like a normal human as opposed to what I used to eat.

The next question is about acne...but it seems like I have hormonal acne paired with a weird rash type on my neck, chest and forehead...
Can you balance hormones by just taking thyroid? ...
I have been taking Natural Sources Bovine Thyroid for the past two weeks and I feel a lot better. I seem to be tolerating it well. Is this ok to take?
...Also, how is dried mango?

Welcome to the forum.

Excuse the out of sequence discussion.

It is suggested to be careful with the "Natural Sources Bovine Thyroid" product. According to the web supplement facts, it contains a "Synergistic Complex" of Thyroid Tissue, Adrenal Tissue, Pituitary Tissue, Thymus Tissue, Spleen Tissue, Malto-dextrin (corn-derivative), American Ginseng. Even if the thyroid function is low and you would like to use dessicated thyroid, the other not-thyroid elements would not be helpful, at best, in my understanding of Dr. Peat's ideas.

Next, it is good that height and weight are proportional, the appetite is healthy, and the intake is good.
Do you feel very irritable or fatigued if you have to delay a snack or miss a meal? Do the hands or feet get cold easily? The insomnia and sensitivity to interrupted meals may indicate glucose delivery"unsteadiness" that could represent depleted instead of boosted metabolism. As mentioned in other posts, some people with low thyroid compensate by "running the engine faster" and are hungry, thin, wiry, and prone to what used to be described as "hypoglycemia". WADR, the adrenal and pituary extracts in the "Natural Sources" product could accentuate this trend.

With good thyroid function, while it is common that appetite and fuel utilization is good, with people being "height-weight proportional", they tend to tolerate having to go without food for a few hours, compared with people compensating by running stress hormones higher. Broda Barnes wrote a book called "Hope for Hypoglycemia" raising this as one topic.

In the big picture, do you feel well? It is easier to strategize beginning with an inventory and working ideas. Is the endurance good (no fatigue with usual activities), thinking clear, are you resilient with life's frictions, etc.? Have you gone through checklists of hypothyroid and estrogen excess symptoms and found that few apply to you? Have you measured mid-morning or mid-day resting pulse and temperature?

When "hormonal acne" is mentioned, does this refer to in relation to the menstrual cycle, and if so, what part? Are there problems with the cycle of any sort? (irregular, cramps/pain, heavy bleeding, clots, bloating, etc.)

It's often the case that boosting one aspect (thyroid, progesterone, others), relieving one excess (e.g. high endotoxin, estrogen, adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, others), or relieving one deficiency (protein, salt, fat soluble vitamin, others) can shift the entire function into restorative mode. Other times, a combination works more effectively.

Grated carrot salad or cooked bamboo shoots to absorb/eliminate gut endotoxin is one thing not mentioned. Please give this a whirl if not already done. My experience is that good quality dried mango makes a good snack. It is part of my rotation.
--
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/lactate.shtml

"Glycolysis is very inefficient for producing usable energy compared to the respiratory metabolism of the mitochondria, and when lactate is carried to the liver, its conversion to glucose adds to the energy drain on the organism.
The hypoglycemia and related events resulting from accelerated glycolysis provide a stimulus for increased activity of the adaptive hormones, including cortisol. Cortisol helps to maintain blood sugar by increasing the conversion of protein to amino acids, and mobilizing free fatty acids from fat stores. The free fatty acids inhibit the use of glucose, so the stress metabolism relies largely on the consumption of amino acids. This increases the formation of ammonia, yet the combination of glycolysis and fat oxidation provides less carbon dioxide, which is needed for the conversion of ammonia to urea. Ammonia stimulates the formation of lactate, while carbon dioxide inhibits it."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/se ... sion.shtml

"Serotonin tends to cause hypoglycemia, and hypoglycemia inhibits the conversion of thyroxine into the active T3 hormone. Hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism increase noradrenaline, and autistic people have been found to have more noradrenaline than normal. These changes, along with the general hypometabolism caused by excess serotonin, seem to justify the use of a thyroid supplement in autism and other serotonin-excess syndromes."
 
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darkchocolate

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Thanks for the quick replies!

Yes, the reason I was wary about the Natural Sources Thyroid was because of the other things added to it. But I feel much better; stable energy, mood, general happiness, when I take it. I think that I will try just straight desiccated thyroid when I order again. Is porcine or bovine better?

I no longer experience cold hands and feet which is awesome, and frequent urination seems to be slowly going away as I include more salt in my diet. I still have water retention issues but they are also getting better with the salt.

As far as hormonal acne, I can just tell by the type that it is related. Cystic, and where it is located on my face. Also gets worse after I ovulate (but flares up when I eat dairy too). I have had estrogen dominance symptoms my whole life (except for when I completely stopped menstruating for 2 years during extreme dieting - sadly I was happy to see it go as my symptoms were so awful). Painful breasts, cramping so bad to the point of almost vomiting, headaches, body aches, periods lasting 7-9 days, 34-37 day cycle, heavy bleeding, and irritability/depression.

These symptoms are still present, some cycles are worse than others.

Insomnia only happens when I eat below 2300-2500 calories. I get anxious, depressed, irritable and extremely fatigued.
Endurance is definitely improving and I can go longer between meals depending on how small/large they are. Obviously if I eat only 200 cals I'm going to be starving again soon as opposed to a 600-800 calorie meal with a good ratio of protein/fat/carbs.

Also, I know that I have both low progesterone and low thyroid as 5 months ago I had bloodwork done and both came back low. I also had elevated morning cortisol. At this time I wasn't as familiar with Ray Peat and was putting my trust in a naturopath who put me on a cortisol blocker.

Also. I think I eat TOO many carrots haha. I crave them like crazy. Do you think there is a reason why? I also eat bamboo shoots once and awhile and have been taking activated charcoal once a week (1 tsp).

I feel much better supplementing with a B-Complex as well as getting my sugar from fruit instead of pure sugar. (I think pure sugar increases my metabolism TOO much and I am still working on restoring mineral/vitamin balance.
 

aguilaroja

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darkchocolate said:
Thanks for the quick replies!

Yes, the reason I was wary about the Natural Sources Thyroid was because of the other things added to it. But I feel much better; stable energy, mood, general happiness, when I take it....I still have water retention issues but they are also getting better with the salt.

As far as hormonal acne, I can just tell by the type that it is related. Cystic, and where it is located on my face. Also gets worse after I ovulate (but flares up when I eat dairy too). I have had estrogen dominance symptoms my whole life (except for when I completely stopped menstruating for 2 years during extreme dieting - sadly I was happy to see it go as my symptoms were so awful). Painful breasts, cramping so bad to the point of almost vomiting, headaches, body aches, periods lasting 7-9 days, 34-37 day cycle, heavy bleeding, and irritability/depression.

These symptoms are still present, some cycles are worse than others.


Also, I know that I have both low progesterone and low thyroid as 5 months ago I had bloodwork done and both came back low. I also had elevated morning cortisol. At this time I wasn't as familiar with Ray Peat and was putting my trust in a naturopath who put me on a cortisol blocker...

I am curious as to what "cortisol blocker" was suggested.

The picture of high estrogen symptoms suggests that starting Progest-E (an economical and especially effective bio-identical progesterone product) promptly, used during the second half of the cycle, would be very helpful.

Restorative measures tend to boost one another. Still, it would be good to do the low thyroid symptom inventory and check pulse and temperature. I know numerous people who showed marked improvement in "thyroid" symptoms by boosting progesterone function.
 
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darkchocolate

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It was called "Cortisol Manager" by Integrative Theraputics.

Also, for the Progest-e, should I begin with the smallest dose? When do I start taking it (my cycles are longer than normal...)?
 

aguilaroja

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darkchocolate said:
...for the Progest-e, should I begin with the smallest dose? When do I start taking it (my cycles are longer than normal...)?

If things are past mid-cycle, it is suggested to start immediately. Before mid-cycle, if you have a clear sense of the beginning of ovulation, you could start on that day. Alternatively, starting on day 14 seems physiologic. Some advocating starting anytime, and using considerable amounts to start. There are differing points of view about the starting amount, which relates to severity of symptoms. I have friends who done the gradual approach, working upward from 3-4 drops per day and friends who started with the higher approach (3 drops five times per day), each with gratifying results.

It has been reported that the instructions by this vendor reflect Dr. Peat's recent thinking. I have no recent communications to know if there is a revised viewpoint. Individual experiences are reported on the forum.

https://www.longnaturalhealth.com/sites ... ctions.pdf
 

natedawggh

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Dark chocolate,

Yes, unfortunately a high metabolism usually means constant calorie cravings... Although, since I went on acetazolamide for breathing issues, my appetite has decreased while yet experiencing better results than before. I wouldn't be surprised if appetite is related to the body's ability to produce and retain CO2. Your body probably loses a lot of CO2 and so burns more fuel to supply more CO2 now that you're eating healthy. On a food-stuffs note, the thing that keeps me satiated the longest are potatoes and eggs eaten together--better than either eaten separately. I make hashes in the am, sometimes for dinner with potatoes and 1-2 eggs in coconut oil, and maybe other things to jazz it up.

About your health discomforts, Have you read Dr Peat's articles? I know of a couple places he refers to pre cycle pain being relived by adequate sodium intake and stuff like that, among a bunch of other great things. Go to the source!

As for your skin issues... The rash...vit A is very effective for fixing skin problems. This means LIVER. Chopped chicken liver with added vinegar is really yummy, or you can just hide it in other foods. But if you get enough if it the skin problems will go away. and I'm not talking about supplements because a Vit A supplement did nothing for me. Before Peating I had Exema on my cheeks, and it went away with my first meal of liver.

Cystic acne is definitely related to gut problems, but I don't have much experience with this other than my acne finally went away at the age of 26 when I stopped eating gluten, among a whole host of other health benefits.
 
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darkchocolate

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Thanks natedawggh!

That's very interesting about the CO2. I'm also a musician and can end up singing around 3-4 hours a day when I'm intensely practicing. Could this have something to do with my large appetite and calorie needs? (I also had a really bad bout of double pneumonia when I was 17 that lasted for 3-4 months).

For the past little while I have been getting a lot more sodium in my diet and I definitely feel better and have less water retention.

I've also been taking eggshell calcium which is improving my mood. I drink a ton of coffee with coconut milk and honey. Pure sugar makes me feel really weird. My digestion sucks. But I can tolerate eggs, coconut, fruit juice, gelatin, dried fruit, chocolate, lots of fish and a bit of fruit - but the fruit has to be ripe and fresh.

Interesting about the cystic acne related to digestion because I have been simplifying everything lately and my skin is improving.

I'm not so sure about the Vitamin A. I seriously have yellow feet and hands from eating tons of carrots, sweet potatoes and squash for many years. I think I might have too much in my system. I tried calves liver last week and at first I experienced a quick surge of energy but then crashed and felt nauseous and sick and fatigued. Sunlight seems to help too.
 

jyb

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darkchocolate said:
I've also been taking eggshell calcium which is improving my mood. I drink a ton of coffee with coconut milk and honey. Pure sugar makes me feel really weird. My digestion sucks. But I can tolerate eggs, coconut, fruit juice, gelatin, dried fruit, chocolate, lots of fish and a bit of fruit - but the fruit has to be ripe and fresh. .

Maybe you're just craving protein. It would be easy to go very low on protein with just gelatin and fish...
 
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darkchocolate

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I'm actually getting at least 115-130 grams of protein every day. Some days I even want more.
 

arinryan

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I have to second the eggs and potatoes recommendation. I have found the best way to not get hungry a few hours later, is to eat high quality, complete protein (egg yolks, potatoes, and liver)--whatever else you have along with it doesn't matter much. As long as you don't try to trick your body into thinking something "healthy" like fish or chicken, is actually nourishing. It knows better, and it will just send out the hunger signal again soon after having eaten that junk.
 
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darkchocolate

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I eat at least two eggs every day in coconut oil.
Potatoes and any starch actually increase my appetite even more and tend to make my skin worse.
When I said "fish" I suppose I should have actually said seafood. Shrimp, oysters, crab, lobster, squid, scallops and a bit of cod and tilapia. All with a healthy serving of coconut oil.

The problem is not so much "staying full". If I eat a large amount (and enough) calories I can go 4-5 hours without food. It's just how MUCH I need to eat. When I have enough calories my hunger stops and I'm fine and I no longer need to eat anymore, my body feels good. I'm just baffled by how much I need now compared to what I used to eat.
 

tara

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darkchocolate said:
The first pertains to appetite. I'm assuming that when you raise thyroid that you need to eat more. I'm seriously SO HUNGRY allll day long. And I find that if I don't eat at least 2700 - 3000 cals a day (sometimes I can eat even more) I'll feel like utter crap and will also experience insomnia. I am a 5'5 female and weigh about 115-117 pounds. Granted, I do some exercise every other day. But like seriously?! Is this normal and should I continue eating to appetite?
Do coffee, aspirin, thyroid and B vitamins increase the need for calories THIS much?
I was a huge calorie restricter before and I can't believe how much I need now in order to function like a normal human as opposed to what I used to eat.


Currently I am eating lots of fruit, juice, eggs, coconut oil/milk, honey, cheese, organ meats, fish and shellfish. I definitely break out way more when I eat dairy (no bloating) so I'm probably going to stop eating it for awhile. I have also been consuming lots of sugar in my coffee and I want to replace that with fruit for nutrients.
...

Also, how is dried mango? My calorie needs are so high that I need things that are calorie dense but also don't fill me up to the point of bursting...

Hi DC,
The amount of food you are eating does not seem excessive to me at all. The average weight-stable non-dieting adult woman (~25 - menopause) eats about 2500 kcal/day. Under 25yrs she needs more to grow to full adult stature, and exercising a lot will increase the need for fuel too. Since you have had a period of eating very much less than this, then your body may well still be needing more to rebuild itself from the period deprivation. I'd encourage you to keep eating this much or more if your appetite demands it. It is not an abnormally large appetite, just more than you were used to when you restricted. Common public calorie calculators don't usually prescribe enough to be healthy.

If you decide to leave out the dairy for a bit to see if that helps, you may want to supplement calcium some other way.

I know what you mean about wanting more calorie-dense food sometimes. What works for different people can vary. I eat some dried fruit most days, but if I eat large quantities I can feel bit off - so I usually just use it for night-time snacks and to carry for emergency rations when I'm out and run out of other supplies. Often dates, occasionally others, including dried mango. If I was you I'd give them a go and see how they treat you. I think I do better if I eat a potatoes from time to time, but some people seem to do better avoiding starch.

I imagine singing would require a bit a of fuel. As a singer, I imagine you would have learned to use abdominal breathing, and maybe also techniques to avoid chronic hidden hyperventilating (blowing out too much CO2)? If not, there are various practices people use to train. Lots of people here use bag-breathing. I haven't been doing that, but I had to retrain myself to breath through my nose instead of my mouth, and to use my diaphragm instead of my ribcage, and do pay attention to my breathing from time to time to help keep it calm. I found normalbreathing.com very informative about CO2 and hyperventilation. There are also some threads on here if you haven't already seen them.

Yellow hands and feet probably means the carotene has not been getting converted into the vitamin A your body can use, but is being stored in the tissues instead. Liver supplies vitamin A in a usable form. When I noticed yellow callouses, I started rinsing my grated carrot to wash some of the carotene away. After starting this, I accidentally forgot one day, and couldn't stand the taste - after rinsing I love them. If you are actually craving them, I don't now what that means - I hate to suggest resisting a craving, because often our bodies know something about what we need, but yellowing skin doesn't sound great. I think B12 is useful for the conversion, and as you say, sunlight.

Others are better informed on other aspects of getting hormones balanced.

Sounds like you are doing well,
Tara
 

Filip1993

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Same experience here, I need to eat at least 3000 calories to feel good when I'm sedentary. Some days I need more.
 
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darkchocolate

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Thanks for that message Tara. I did a refeed last year following Matt Stone's and Gwyneth's advice (eat alllll the food) and gained a ton of weight and felt awful. I lost the weight again and am now following Ray's Principles and just feel so much better, yet I'm eating almost the same (or more) calories and so far it only looks like I'm getting leaner. (We'll have to see long term results though).
I guess I was a little concerned because I don't want to gain all the weight back again but I also want to trust my body and appetite. However, my lower ab veins are still visible eating 2700-3000. I also get almost all my fat from coconut sources because I just can't tolerate dairy. I'm thinking that it might be contributing to my leanness, higher calorie requirements and overall energy.
 

max219

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I also think maybe following Matt and Gwyneth's advice of refeeding and gaining weight is now allowing you to stay lean at a higher caloric intake. Something similar happened to me after months of eating 4000 calories and gaining about 10 pounds of fat. Following that I leaned out lowering intake below 3000 for a while, and now I stay lean between 3000-3500. I also keep fat intake low though (~25-35 grams).
 

LadyRae

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Thanks for that message Tara. I did a refeed last year following Matt Stone's and Gwyneth's advice (eat alllll the food) and gained a ton of weight and felt awful. I lost the weight again and am now following Ray's Principles and just feel so much better, yet I'm eating almost the same (or more) calories and so far it only looks like I'm getting leaner. (We'll have to see long term results though).
I guess I was a little concerned because I don't want to gain all the weight back again but I also want to trust my body and appetite. However, my lower ab veins are still visible eating 2700-3000. I also get almost all my fat from coconut sources because I just can't tolerate dairy. I'm thinking that it might be contributing to my leanness, higher calorie requirements and overall energy.
Such an ancient thread! But I'm wondering if you have an update if you are still active on the forum? Thank you!
 

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