High Levels Of Glutamate Implicated In Depression / Suicide

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post 112341 How did you get your sleep in order? I think I may have been experiencing the same thing, and for me it also was caused by intense psychological stress. Also, do you take thyroid? I agree it is a difficult hole to transcend simply because a lack of sleep drains all of your energy required to solve the problem and thus the cycle repeats itself.

It's a bit hard to say, as I actually did a bunch of stuff and it's hard to pinpoint what really helped. Initially, I started taking 500-1000mg b1, some k2, aspirin, and l-ornithine (maybe 2g) before bed and trying to get to bed earlier. At first it didn't seem to do much, but then I started waking up before my alarm feeling refreshed, which was highly unusual for me. I would typically be woken up from my alarm and snooze for nearly an hour after 8 to 9 hours of sleep, and finally get up feeling like ***t.

Initially, I attributed the sleep improvement to the supplements, but now I'm not so sure. I've discontinued the l-ornithine, as I'm not so sure it's safe long term, but I still tend to take b1 and k2 before bed, and I think they may help to keep the metabolic rate higher during sleep. I really think the number one thing for me is getting to bed early. It seems the earlier I can get to bed the better I sleep. I try to be in bed by 10 at the latest, which requires a lot of discipline at first.

However, once I got in the habit of it and saw the marked improvement in my morning and all day really, I started getting excited to get to bed early. Now it's pretty routine for me. and I'd say 4 out of 5 days I'm up before my alarm, usually by 5:30 to 6:30. I have a 250w heat lamp that I turn on first thing in the morning, which I think has been a big help in regulating circadian rhythm, and I tend to lay under it after work most days too. I think the more bright light you can get during the day the better your sleep cycles will be.

I don't take thryoid, but I've been gradually upping my caffeine intake. When I was having really bad depersonalization, I could barely tolerate caffeine. I felt great for an hour, and then would crash to a really dark place where I'd feel spaced out, disassociated, and paranoid. Not good times! I think getting my diet sorted out and higher doses of k2 have helped. I'm now up to 600+mg per day between coffee and caffeine power, and it's working really well for me. I'm going to keep increasing my dose and see how things go.

I've also really been getting my diet dialed in and getting regular exercise too, which have been very beneficial for me in getting over the psychological stress. Oh, and I found creatine to be useful. I take 5g/day and it seems to help with mood, concentration, and gains at the climbing gym. Anyway, I guess I've made a whole bunch of positive changes, so like I said really hard to pinpoint what was most important. But I think the first mental shift was also really important, just deciding that my sleep was a huge factor in my issues and taking getting it dialed in very seriously.

I think there's also a time factor in recovering from psychological stress and depersonalization. There were months on end where I thought things seemed like they weren't getting much better, but I was healing a little bit each day just by being out of that stress. It's important to be able to look at things and say, well I'm not 100% yet, but I feel better than last month, so that's good. When things move slowly like this, it can be a bit easy to loose hope, but believing that the condition is stress induced and will be reversed by getting away from those stressors can help

post 112341 I am also interested in this cult if you don;t mind sharing. Not that I want to join, just curious about the working of the cult and how you ended up there etc....

If it is too difficult to speak about I understand.

I'd actually love to talk about it, as I'm now past the terror (pretty sure I had PTSD from it), and I really did learn a lot about the functioning of cults there. I actually took a ton of notes and photos and am going to write a long article about it at some point. I'm still at work, but I'll respond tonight about my experience there.

 

[sladerunner69]

Intedresting that you include creatine as part of your regimine. The effect it has on DHT is well documenbted, but in practice it seems to make eveyrone irritable (myself included)... Sorry to hear about your sever depersonalization, it is something I have a fair amount of trouble with myself so know that you are not alone. Personally I see the greatest improvment when my total health status, in terms of metabolic function, vitamins, pufas, etc, when that is highest I seem to feel the best throughout the day. Your nutrition and activity, of course,m won't solve that kind of problem alone, you are going to have to work through it menatalkly as well. Some days are a struggle for me but concentraiton adn willpower are powerful tools, and overtime the conscience seems to adapt and reorient itself according to your feelings and thought, so think happy and cheerful ones! Learning to relax and absorb optimistic perspectives has helped me realign in tune with my own self. Yoga and meditationa re also highly beneficial in thios regard,a t least for me, but also for significant numbers of others who swear by it and have experienced and reaped the rewards of intense concentration training first hand.

 

[Koveras]

In general, anything that raises GABA will oppose/lower glutamate. This explains why taurine and theanine both lower it since they both stimulate GABA release. Theanine is also a structural analog of glutamate, almost like an anti-metabolite so that's probably another reason it opposes glutamate. Other GABA agents that should lower glutamate are niacinamide, progesterone, pregnenolone, saturated fat, tryptophan-deficient protein, glycine, proline, alanine, etc. As you all know, these substances are all known to be sedative in high doses, which suggests GABA release.

Any thoughts on studies that show an increase in glutamate receptor expression due to low serotonin (via pCPA)?

p-Chlorophenylalanine (PCPA) Increases GluR1 Transcription in Rat Amygdala

Maladaptive response to low serotonin, idiosyncratic response to pCPA, or representative of the general dulling of the senses caused by serotonin?

Possible that serotonin's actions on dulling the senses act through reducing dopamine (by inhibiting tyrosine hydroxylase) as well as reducing glutamate receptor density?

Or does increased serotonin increase glutamatergic tone, which causes an adaptive decrease in glutamate receptor density (and thus reducing serotonin would reduce glutamate and cause an adaptive increase in glutamate receptor density?)

The relationship between serotonin and glutamate/GABA seems complex

Serotonin as a Modulator of Glutamate- and GABA-Mediated Neurotransmission: Implications in Physiological Functions and in Pathology

Some authors as you have noted have suggested a more prominent role for glutamatergic dysfunction in depression

Towards a glutamate hypothesis of depression: An emerging frontier of neuropsychopharmacology for mood disorders

If there is a balance that is ideal between excitation and inhibition it may be that using a direct tryptophan hydroxylase inhibitor like pCPA or pEPA may be quite dangerous long term, while a diet emphasizing tryptophan depletion (by getting most of one's protein from collagen) is likely safer, since the glycine would provide some inhibitory balance to increased glutamate sensitivity (although if reduced serotonin reduces glutamate levels, as well as estrogen, the excitatory tone could be low, but an acute challenge maybe dangerous if the receptors are upregulated?).

Likewise the beneficial effects of theanine on GABA would make it a better choice to pCPA/pEPA

Long term depletion of serotonin leads to selective changes in glutamate receptor subunits. - PubMed - NCBI

Modulation by serotonin of glutamate-induced lethality in mice. - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10800950

 

[haidut]

Any thoughts on studies that show an increase in glutamate receptor expression due to low serotonin (via pCPA)?

p-Chlorophenylalanine (PCPA) Increases GluR1 Transcription in Rat Amygdala

Maladaptive response to low serotonin, idiosyncratic response to pCPA, or representative of the general dulling of the senses caused by serotonin?

Possible that serotonin's actions on dulling the senses act through reducing dopamine (by inhibiting tyrosine hydroxylase) as well as reducing glutamate receptor density?

Or does increased serotonin increase glutamatergic tone, which causes an adaptive decrease in glutamate receptor density (and thus reducing serotonin would reduce glutamate and cause an adaptive increase in glutamate receptor density?)

The relationship between serotonin and glutamate/GABA seems complex

Serotonin as a Modulator of Glutamate- and GABA-Mediated Neurotransmission: Implications in Physiological Functions and in Pathology

Some authors as you have noted have suggested a more prominent role for glutamatergic dysfunction in depression

Towards a glutamate hypothesis of depression: An emerging frontier of neuropsychopharmacology for mood disorders

If there is a balance that is ideal between excitation and inhibition it may be that using a direct tryptophan hydroxylase inhibitor like pCPA or pEPA may be quite dangerous long term, while a diet emphasizing tryptophan depletion (by getting most of one's protein from collagen) is likely safer, since the glycine would provide some inhibitory balance to increased glutamate sensitivity (although if reduced serotonin reduces glutamate levels, as well as estrogen, the excitatory tone could be low, but an acute challenge maybe dangerous if the receptors are upregulated?).

Likewise the beneficial effects of theanine on GABA would make it a better choice to pCPA/pEPA

Long term depletion of serotonin leads to selective changes in glutamate receptor subunits. - PubMed - NCBI

Modulation by serotonin of glutamate-induced lethality in mice. - PubMed - NCBI

p-ethynylphenylalanine: a potent inhibitor of tryptophan hydroxylase. - PubMed - NCBI

In general, substances that antagonize glutamate (or serotonin for that matter) would tend do increase receptor expression and/or density. Serotonin antagonists increase serotonin receptor density/expression. Dopamine agonists like bromocriptine decrease dopamine receptor density/expression. Theanine actually reduces glutamate synthesis directly and since GABA is derives from glutamate substances that increase GABA-ergic tone will tend to reduce glutamate levels but increase glutamate receptor expression/density. I guess it is an adaptive process where an excess or deficiency of a chemical leads to respectively decrease or increase in receptor density/expression as a compensatory mechanism. Don't know if this is universally true though. I have seen it described and heard testimonials mostly in regards to GABA/serotonin/dopamine/glutamate.

 

[lvysaur]

I started waking up before my alarm feeling refreshed, which was highly unusual for me. I would typically be woken up from my alarm and snooze for nearly an hour after 8 to 9 hours of sleep, and finally get up feeling like ****.

I had this same exact effect from taking vitamin K2. I would often go to bed at 3am, wake up at 8am, and feel like I had slept for twice that time.

 

[lvysaur]

Any thoughts on studies that show an increase in glutamate receptor expression due to low serotonin (via pCPA)?

I think Peat's general principle of "too low excitation" may play a part here.

I was very free of food-related and academic stress for a 1 month period earlier this year. During this time, I was taking vitamin K, vitamin D, occasional zinc and nothing else. My diet was milk and cookies, bananas, and occasional chicken or oxtail. My hair grew in spades, but I also found it difficult to do things that required energy. One day, immediately after eating a bowl of miso soup, I became extremely active, confident, and energetic. I was also unemotional and a bit callous.

Vitamin K is involved in the metabolism of substances that contain glutamate, so becoming replete in vitamin K could possibly reduce the total amount of glutamate in the body.

My interpretation of that particular episode is that I went for a long time without cellular excitation (low glutamate, low tryptophan/serotonin, low estrogen, etc.), so that my body stored more energy within its cells. I probably became more sensitive to excitatory substances because of the lack of them in my diet and lifestyle. So a small amount of excitation (glutamate in miso) was enough to trigger a reaction, and because I had stored so much energy, the reaction was not anxiety or twitchiness, but instead confidence and vigilance.

 

[Beachy]

After taking magnesium glycinate for only a few days, I developed bad depersonalization. After seeing this forum I'm wondering, is this just a coincidence or could magnesium actually cause this? Any thoughts?

 

[CarbAppreciator]

So a small amount of excitation (glutamate in miso) was enough to trigger a reaction, and because I had stored so much energy, the reaction was not anxiety or twitchiness, but instead confidence and vigilance.

It could be caused by an increase in androgens, compensating for high estrogen in the soy.

 

[lvysaur]

It could be caused by an increase in androgens, compensating for high estrogen in the soy.

I don't think it's that simple, because my facial hair was incredibly soft during that time. I am very experienced with the "androgenic compensation" reaction that I get, and this was completely different. It could possibly be that I had increased testosterone, but not DHT, since I had low estrogen. DHT is the hormone implicated in hair loss and probably also in facial hair growth.

Or it could be the result of noradrenaline mobilizing stored energy; noradrenaline is specifically known to bring on these types of feelings.

I think that when there's enough energy running through your system, sex hormones in general decrease.

 

[lexis]

Nitric oxide causes Glutamate release

Glutamate as a mediating transmitter for auditory hallucinations in schizophrenia – an opportunity to target NO?

 

[Maretch]

Memantine good advice, works really good!

 

[Jsaute21]

@Maretch where did you purchase this product?

 

[Pet Peeve]

Oxaloacetate aka benagene helps. I'm very sensitive to glutamate and tried 100 mg oxaloacetate a while ago but it was too strong and made my blood sugar crash. As an experiment I ate some MSG laden crisps today and got symptoms. 10 mg or so of oxaloacetate gave substantial relief within minutes.

 

[Mateo Wiechers]

Does anyone know if Creatine can help reduce Glutamate and/or increase GABA? When i take creatine i get very sleepy (probably due to Adenosine agonism?).

 

[haidut]

Does anyone know if Creatine can help reduce Glutamate and/or increase GABA? When i take creatine i get very sleepy (probably due to Adenosine agonism?).

Not sure about creatine but biotin and vitamin K both increase conversion of glutamate into GABA.

 

[Mateo Wiechers]

What dose of Biotin do you think is effective? Also, Can anyone relate to feelings of high Glutamate after eating a high protein meal? , i feel like too focused but in a weird way, can't socialize very well...

 

[Mateo Wiechers]

@haidut
Neuroprotective effects of creatine administration against NMDA and malonate toxicity. - PubMed - NCBI
It seems that creatine does have an effect on NMDA. I maybe by raising ATP it prevents excess calcium uptake into cells.