High Fat Is Bad, But High Fat Plus Carbs Is Worse

Discussion in 'Macros & Micros' started by Pompadour, May 29, 2017.

  1. tara

    tara Member

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    That seems likely to me too.
     
  2. OP
    Pompadour

    Pompadour Member

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    Medium everything in terms of ckal is 33% of fats , proteins and carbs?
    Balance is more about balanced metabolism i guess , than about balanced macros. And the question is what is optimal diet for balanced metabolism.
    I think that it is really very private thing and depends on one's state of health. If someone only starts with Peat - it is likely to make bad choices for one's metabolism at first (like eating more carbs without eating less fats). Some people complain weight gaining and worsing of insulin resistance at first - so it seems that this article just illustrates what can happen.
    Yes, i know that there is no any "Ray Peat diet" :) And that is why we all try to Percieve, think and act ;)
     
  3. jitsmonkey

    jitsmonkey Member

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    I didn't say it to be flip. I meant it.
    The concern would be if you did what you're doing for 10 years.
    Just try things and adjust accordingly, no need to decide if hi carb hi fat is bad
    your results will tell you in relatively short order.
     
  4. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    Very interesting thought
     
  5. 2thecloudsabove

    2thecloudsabove Member

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    The good metabolism and health is the one that can switch and manage both carbs and fat for energy. While I rely best on carbs for most energym I don't do well being on <25-30% calories from fat as I start craving for it badly.
     
  6. Amarsh213

    Amarsh213 Member

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    Gonna agree with you hear. Everyone is different. But the second I stopped excess sugars. Life got better. My abbs popped out, anxiety went down, brain fog disappeared, sleep improved. Water retention dropped.

    Now my carbs are glass
    Orange juice for breakfast and before bed. Whatever's in my 2% milk which is about 1/2 gallon a day, some candy around and during my workout. No need for more.. Fat does the rest.
     
  7. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    What is the rest of your diet like? Any reason to not eat starch?
     
  8. rei

    rei Member

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    Excellent observations! Almost all human studies where they see negative effect from high fat intake can be traced to much of it being PUFA. Saturated fat shows a broad range of protective effects, so going low fat is kind of a weird recommendation. The evidence is so clear that even mainstream science has started to recommend whole milk since skimmed causes diabetes in comparison...

    And about the insulin resistance and glucose deficiency. The main reason such a concept exists is due to the flawed insulin sensitivity test. If your body is used to burning fat and ketones then of course a sudden huge spike in glucose will need more effort to have it shoved into the cells, simply due to the active processes. This "resistance" is completely different from insulin resistance of t2d where the cell is already full of glucose and stops responding to insulin to protect itself.
     
  9. Xisca

    Xisca Member

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    Rats I know do well on almonds and avocado is their favorite! They also like meat and eggs, and thrive on fruits, bananas, even oranges, and also love cabbage and beet root... If they attack a pumkin, this is only to get to the seeds, so they LOVE FAT.
    True they have no gall bladder, I even checked it myself...
    I don't know how they manage fat...
    Of course it is never oil.
    Rats diet is very close to humans' and I don't know if it is WHY they chose rats in labs, and not guinea pigs, who have a gall bladder, and who are unable to synthetize vitamine C! Very much like US!
    BUT guinea pigs never eat animal products and do not even like grains very much. They like grass first, and fruits second.

    Still a lot of fat, find what Denise Minger says about being high in one or the other but not both.
    Make the change in summer!
    Maybe the trick is high glucose fructose and low fat
    + in winter high in glucose like potatoes, and resonable high in sta fat....
    It makes me suspect that with fat the problem is more fructose than glucose...
    Then if it is starch, I would believe even more my intuition!
    I do not crave fat when I eat fruits, and when I eat starch I do.
    Dairies leave me more interrogative!

    The switch is important, I agree with you for this. Resilience and adaptation are important factors. I also believe that cells are intelligent and let enter what they need, but that they can be "afraid" of what is given to them when they have been in a toxic environment, not only pufas but any chemical for example.
    Easy, according to where you live, you do not open the door the same way when one knocks at your door! And when you see a postman costume, you are or are not reluctant to believe it, also according to your past experience!
     
  10. OP
    Pompadour

    Pompadour Member

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    How much fat is enough up to you ?
     
  11. DuggaDugga

    DuggaDugga Member

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    Insulin sensitivity or resistance are more complex than macronutrient composition.
    Fats and carbs are digested through different pathways, passing through certain organs primarily. Fat passes through the lymphatic system to the heart then general circulation where muscle and adipose tissue uptake it depending on their respective energetic status'. Muscle cells utilize as fatty acids as their primary energy substrate in most circumstances, so you can expect your need for fat in the diet to be contingent on your muscle mass. Glucose on the other hand goes through the hepatic portal vein to the liver and then pancreas before general circulation. Most of us are aware that the brain and red blood cells almost exclusively run on glucose, with the liver and pancreas working to manage blood glucose levels. It makes sense the body evolved to work the way that it does. So what is the right amount of fat:carbs to have in the diet? The answer varies by individual depending on their activities and the subsequent energy status of different cells throughout the body. While I think physically active individuals probably do better with more fat in the diet (relative to sedentary individuals) given greater muscle mass , I don't think anyone really thrives on a high fat:low carb diet because of the Randle effect, the role of pyruvate in replenishing oxaloacetate for the citric acid cycle, and the additional CO2 produced from glycolysis.
     
  12. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    IKR, what variety of primitive cromagnon would employ such a quaint notion? The two really aren't so different- being two sides of the same hay-penny. How is one supposed to acquire enough nutrients if we are preoccupied with counting endless macros? Absurdity in the flesh, I say. The only rule that exists fundamentally speaking is the old adage "blood may run thicker than water, but coffee runs thickest of all" -SR
     
  13. ReSTART

    ReSTART Member

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  14. Xisca

    Xisca Member

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    I just view with my cravings... and it depends if I eat fruits or starch!
    You can see with your weight too.
    The article by Denise Minger has been cited in this forum before, it is long and explain she thinks better to choose the high one we want, but not the 2.
    My guess is that the more north we are, the more we should swap according to the seasons. Or buy foreign tropical food in winter... which means it cannot be sustainable, or that man should have stayed near the tropic.
     
  15. James IV

    James IV Member

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    None of this even matter really in practice. IR happens when you can no longer store anymore energy (can't get any fatter) or when glucose/protein intake is so low that it's being spared for the heart and brain.
    Since the latter is unlikely in a "peat" scenario, if you have IR eating carbs, you're probably too fat.

    You don't have to choose fat or carbs, but if you choose both, you have to be concious of calories, because the combination is very stimulating to the reward centers, and it's much easier overconsume energy.
     
  16. kayumochi

    kayumochi Member

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    At the beginning of the summer, I decided to experiment by dropping all liquid fats and upping lean protein by eating low fat cottage cheese and casein and that little bit of stubborn fat I couldn't shake melted away. I won't be going back to cooking with coconut oil ... or any other kind of fat.
     
  17. James IV

    James IV Member

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    You decreased your caloric intake, and/or increased expenditure from the stimulating effect of protein. Not that you should cook with oils, but your results don't really prove anything.

    Lowering bodyfat temporarily is easy, it's maintainng it (I'm talking years) that most people have a problem with.
     
  18. DuggaDugga

    DuggaDugga Member

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    Agreed.
    I would add that psychological/perceived stress induces insulin resistance as well.

    [Study of the stress response: role of anxiety, cortisol and DHEAs]. - PubMed - NCBI
    The effects of cortisol on insulin sensitivity in muscle. - PubMed - NCBI
    Glucocorticoid-induced insulin resistance in skeletal muscles: defects in insulin signalling and the effects of a selective glycogen synthase kinase-3 inhibitor

    Over the course of the year I've been "Peating" I've had stints where I really struggled even when my diet and sleep remained relatively constant. Each time uncontrolled environmental stress (perceived or "real") had bubbled up in some capacity and remained unaddressed. Ten to twenty minutes of mindfulness practice and controlled breathing is usually all it takes to remedy it.
    I don't think everyone necessarily needs to practice mindfulness but I definitely recommend it to those with a history of persistent "excitatory" thoughts and behaviors.
     
  19. kayumochi

    kayumochi Member

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    Curious, what did you think I was trying to prove?
     
  20. Xisca

    Xisca Member

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    Unexpected Benefits of Olive Leaf Extract | Life Extension

    "One intriguing study showed that when lab rats were fed a high-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, they developed all the signs of metabolic syndrome (excessive abdominal fat, hypertension, abnormal lipid profile, and impaired glucose tolerance).36 But when animals were fed that unhealthy diet along with olive leaf extracts, virtually all of the metabolic abnormalities improved or, in some cases, normalized.36

    Human studies reveal that supplementing with 500 mg of olive leaf extract once daily resulted in significant reductions in hemoglobin A1c levels, the standard marker of long-term exposure to elevated blood sugar in diabetic people.31 Supplementation also lowered fasting plasma insulin levels, an important point because chronic insulin elevations may contribute to diabetics’ higher cancer risks.31,37"
     
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