High Fat Is Bad, But High Fat Plus Carbs Is Worse

[Pompadour]

When mice was fed high fat diet - they experienced dramatic changes : insulin resistance, fat in liver and oxidative stress. But additon of as little as 5-10% of carbs made things worse.
A small amount of dietary carbohydrate can promote the HFD-induced insulin resistance to a maximal level. - PubMed - NCBI

Together, fat is essential for development of insulin resistance and dietary carb is not necessary for HFD-induced insulin resistance due to the presence of hepatic gluconeogenesis but a very small amount of it can promote HFD-induced insulin resistance to a maximal level.

Can it be so, does all novices for the Peat-style diet eat too much fat and when they increase carbs they see bad results (liver fat, insulin resistance)? Maybe with Peat's diet we need to have only minimum of fats and that is imperative? Otherwise if one tries to make smooth transition from Paleo (high fat - low carb) to Peat (higher carb) he or she can accidentally eat a lot of fat and carbs at the same time and make things worse for the one's health.

 

[Braveheart]

When mice was fed high fat diet - they experienced dramatic changes : insulin resistance, fat in liver and oxidative stress. But additon of as little as 5-10% of carbs made things worse.
A small amount of dietary carbohydrate can promote the HFD-induced insulin resistance to a maximal level. - PubMed - NCBI


Can it be so, does all novices for the Peat-style diet eat too much fat and when they increase carbs they see bad results (liver fat, insulin resistance)? Maybe with Peat's diet we need to have only minimum of fats and that is imperative? Otherwise if one tries to make smooth transition from Paleo (high fat - low carb) to Peat (higher carb) he or she can accidentally eat a lot of fat and carbs at the same time and make things worse for the one's health.

+1

 

[schultz]

Can it be so, does all novices for the Peat-style diet eat too much fat and when they increase carbs they see bad results (liver fat, insulin resistance)? Maybe with Peat's diet we need to have only minimum of fats and that is imperative?

Yes, I think such a thing happens to people. I don't think it would be a problem if they had a very physical job or something where they need the extra calories from fat. It was probably an excellent combination for survival in our past. Fat could be used as energy for walking and sugar could be used by the brain.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Why does a Ray Peat forum have a Macros & Micros section LOL

 

[Kyle M]

Makes sense

 

[Ritchie]

Yeah I think that happened to me when I first peaced out of paleo into the peat world a few years ago. There was like a transitional period where I put on weight very quickly, going from being super lean and toned to carrying quite a bit extra even though I was very physically active. It took me a lot longer to get my head around eating less fat (saturated) than it took me to get my head around increasing sugar, so there was a period of time I was eating quite high of both and I didn't feel well at all. I slowly adjusted my diet and lowered my fat intake so that now it has become quite a small amount (a little cheese, coconut oil, eggs, etc). The extra weight has come off quite significantly and I feel much better overall. Another big change in the transitional process was lowering protein. In the paleo days I was eating very large portions of meat or seafood, cheese etc with each meal basically to my hearts content, and this also took me a while to get my head around altering once I jumped into Peatland. Now when I eat protein rich foods like eggs or seafood or meats it is only a small portion per meal and I feel way better, look way better too. I think if you are eating Peaty and most of your energy is coming from sugar then you need a lot less fat and protein than you would otherwise and in fact your body is probably significantly taxed if consuming too much of both along with the high carb.

 

[Mufasa]

High Fat, High Carb is definitely the worst thing in my experience.

 

[Tarmander]

High fat high carb is used all the time to give rats insulin resistance. Doesn't take more then reading a dozen studies to figure that out.

 

[raypeatclips]

When people say "high fat" what levels are you talking about? Because I see people advocating multiple tablespoons of coconut oil a day in here.

 

[Braveheart]

When people say "high fat" what levels are you talking about? Because I see people advocating multiple tablespoons of coconut oil a day in here.

believe Peat recommends no more than 3 teaspoons daily

 

[Pompadour]

When people say "high fat" what levels are you talking about?

Good question ... I only start Peat-style diet and for the last 4 weeks i eat about 2000 kcal per day with 41% carbs (~215g), 33% fat (70g, of wich is 7g of PUFAs) and 23% protein (~105g) - i use Cronometer if anything . And my weight started to go up.... it makes me worry. Is the amount of fat that i eat is already too much?

 

[Elysium]

Alright, but gulping sugar on its own will cause insulin to spike, leading to conversion of sugar to fat. And there are numerous people on here who got fat on very low fat and high sugar. So what now?

Perhaps the whole black and white, extremist thinking, where something always needs to be high, and something always needs to be low, is the problem. Reading many of the threads one would think Peat must be recommending pounds of sugar a day, where in reality his recommendation for optimal daily sugar intake is measly 200 grams. Hardly a high carb!!

When did balance become unhealthy? Perhaps the cartoonish concept, where if little bit of something is good, a lot of it must be even better, is the problem. I know balance sounds like such a lame concept in a world where everyones looking for the magic bullet and if something doesn't sound sufficiently bombastic or extreme, it probably isn't worth trying. But honestly, listening to Peat on various podcasts I often wonder how often the forum strays from what the guy says.


"The very rapid rise of blood sugar stimulates massive release of insulin, and rapidly converts much of the carbohydrate into fat." RP

"A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress" RP

 

[Pompadour]

When did balance become unhealthy?

But what really is balance? Maybe a healthy body with healthy metabolism can reach it by its own, without any help. Just through instincts... But when you try to come off some style of diet i think at first some guidence is a good thing.

 

[Mito]

Good question ... I only start Peat-style diet and for the last 4 weeks i eat about 2000 kcal per day with 41% carbs (~215g), 33% fat (70g, of wich is 7g of PUFAs) and 23% protein (~105g) - i use Cronometer if anything . And my weight started to go up.... it makes me worry. Is the amount of fat that i eat is already too much?

My diet has a very similar macro ratio. Weight is stable. I think everyone probably has a unique optimal macro ratio based on the health of their carb and fat metabolism. And the ratio is probably a moving target based on many factors including activity level and stress.

But what really is balance? Maybe a healthy body with healthy metabolism can reach it by its own, without any help. Just through instincts... But when you try to come off some style of diet i think at first some guidence is a good thing.

I thought Tyw had some good posts on the subject in this thread How The Sugar Industry Shifted Blame To Fat. A couple quotes from the post "Start from an extreme of either very low carb or very low fat, and then slowly add more of the reduced macronutrient until balance is reached." "Again, the underlying principle is: Do not interfere with energy use from the primary nutrient (exclusively fat or carb)."

 

[Pompadour]

the ratio is probably a moving target

Yes, i think so too.
Thank you very much for the quotes, Mito! I try to be gentle enough with my metabolism. Before Peat-style diet i was consuming about 165-175g of carbs and more fat. But not too extreme low fat or low carbs. And now i am just a little bit scared to make a mistake :)

 

[ecstatichamster]

I gained 30 pounds from high fat high carbs.

Now I'm experimenting with potatoes and adding back a little fat. I had a slice of cheddar and a bowl of potatoes for lunch. We shall see. It felt good.

I still get a sleepiness after a meal like that, but I'm hoping things adjust. It takes 3 or 4 weeks for a new diet adjustment to really take hold.

 

[Elysium]

I gained 30 pounds from high fat high carbs.

I'm just stunned when I read things like this. What exactly did you expect? I guess thats what I am trying to understand because all this 'high xxx' sounds pathological to me. How can anything good come out of extreme anything? There are milions of healthy and lean people out there that have never heard of Peat and have never done 'high' anything. Instead they do medium everything.

That is not to say one should do medium pufa, once he identifies pufa being toxic. But once you eliminate the poisons, balance is the normal.

 

[James IV]

Rats are not phisiologically equipped to digest appreciable amounts of fat. They have no gall bladder, and a large cecum, basically opposite to humans. They are obligate grain/fiber eaters. Macronutrtional studies in rats, particularly fat studies, are all but irrelevant in regards to humans.

Low carbohydrate intake will not create physiological IR in humans, unless you are dietary glucose deficient.

Futhurmore, most modern lab rats have been bred to have even worse reactions to dietary fat than a wild rat, due to the anti-fat propaganda of the last 50 years. The majority of rats used in US labs today are from the same lineage as the rats of the 50s and 60s. These rats havent lived a natural existence in many, many, generations. Lab rats have actually devolved in health over the years, alongside humans. This makes the reaction to an unattural diet even more pronounced.

 

[Lee Simeon]

I'm just stunned when I read things like this. What exactly did you expect? I guess thats what I am trying to understand because all this 'high xxx' sounds pathological to me. How can anything good come out of extreme anything? There are milions of healthy and lean people out there that have never heard of Peat and have never done 'high' anything. Instead they do medium everything.

That is not to say one should do medium pufa, once he identifies pufa being toxic. But once you eliminate the poisons, balance is the normal.

Totally agree. While I do think there is more to weight gain and weight loss than just calories, extreme quantities of food will almost always make someone gain weight.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Good question ... I only start Peat-style diet and for the last 4 weeks i eat about 2000 kcal per day with 41% carbs (~215g), 33% fat (70g, of wich is 7g of PUFAs) and 23% protein (~105g) - i use Cronometer if anything . And my weight started to go up.... it makes me worry. Is the amount of fat that i eat is already too much?

Why should you worry?
its just data
so you ate a certain way for 4 weeks and your weight went up.
2 options:
1. do the same thing and see what happens 4 weeks from now
2. lower your fat consumption (especially pufa) and increase your carbohydrate consumption while keeping cals same. see what happens 4 weeks from now.
simple.
No need for concern.
Its not the Ray Peat diet
its the gather data, respond intelligently diet ;-)