High Dose Niacinamide Experiment

tomisonbottom

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Charlie said:
My super high dose experiment is over. It started causing me anxiety, feeling on edge, just really off. Today I went back to small doses, and feeling much better.

The high doses definitely lowers serotonin. I had to double and triple my cascara sagrada to make it do what it usually does. And today I did not lower the dose(cascara) and OMG I have overshot it by significant amount. Needless to say I am completely cleaned out.

Hey Charlie, sorry to hear it didn't work for you, I'm about to start trying this for anxiety/stress issues but I certainly wouldn't want to make it worse. Is it possible there were excipients in the pills you were taking? Or could it have been anything else that was happening to cause that?
Also, What is the correlation between constipation and lowered serotonin?
 
OP
charlie

charlie

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tomisonbottom said:
Hey Charlie, sorry to hear it didn't work for you, I'm about to start trying this for anxiety/stress issues but I certainly wouldn't want to make it worse. Is it possible there were excipients in the pills you were taking? Or could it have been anything else that was happening to cause that? Also, What is the correlation between constipation and lowered serotonin?
I think for me its pushing my metabolism up too much. With thyroid supplement my metabolism is pushed up about as far as it can go without the body fighting back much. So when I add something like niacinamide, or aspirin, or even too many grams of sugar, it pushes me too hard so then I get a stress response.

Right now I am taking 50 mgs 2-3 times a day and it doesn't seem to be causing too much stress.

Serotonin causes peristalsis. So when there is not much serotonin your bowels slow way down.
 

Lin

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Hi Charlie. I see you are taking a lower dose. That's probably what I should do. Ha! I just had the strangest reaction: I took 100 mg of niacinamide with breakfast (Source Naturals--yes,full of additives) In a few minutes I actually had a cold flush. Just tingling cold all over my body! My temp was 93.7. I did not have nausea or light-headedness, thank goodness. Good grief, what would have happened if I had taken 1500 mg?
Isn't niacinamide supposed to be non-flushing?
 

Peata

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I took 1500 mg all at once in an extended release pill for a while now, but never had any particular sensation from it. Recently I started cutting the pill in half. And just a few days ago I received a new bottle of 500 mg. capsules and I've been taking one or two per day.

I posted this in my log, but I think the niacinamide helped remove a discoloration on my abdomen - a "stain" that a derm called a keratosis.

I also started an experiment with topical niacinamide yesterday. I opened enough capsules to make 1/2 teaspoon and poured that into 2 oz. of rosewater/glycerin toner. Shake well each use. Applied after cleansing and drying face. Slight stinging, mostly on areas with acne. I know I said in another post I don't tend to get much result with products unless my internal issues are taken care of, but I'm looking to see if this does anything noticeable.
 

tomisonbottom

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Peata said:
I posted this in my log, but I think the niacinamide helped remove a discoloration on my abdomen - a "stain" that a derm called a keratosis.

I also started an experiment with topical niacinamide yesterday. I opened enough capsules to make 1/2 teaspoon and poured that into 2 oz. of rosewater/glycerin toner. Shake well each use. Applied after cleansing and drying face. Slight stinging, mostly on areas with acne. I know I said in another post I don't tend to get much result with products unless my internal issues are taken care of, but I'm looking to see if this does anything noticeable.

Hi Peata,

how did the topical application work for you?
Also, when you say it removed a discoloration, was that from topical or internal? Is the spot all the way gone?
Thanks!
 

Peata

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tomisonbottom said:
Peata said:
I posted this in my log, but I think the niacinamide helped remove a discoloration on my abdomen - a "stain" that a derm called a keratosis.

I also started an experiment with topical niacinamide yesterday. I opened enough capsules to make 1/2 teaspoon and poured that into 2 oz. of rosewater/glycerin toner. Shake well each use. Applied after cleansing and drying face. Slight stinging, mostly on areas with acne. I know I said in another post I don't tend to get much result with products unless my internal issues are taken care of, but I'm looking to see if this does anything noticeable.

Hi Peata,

how did the topical application work for you?
Also, when you say it removed a discoloration, was that from topical or internal? Is the spot all the way gone?
Thanks!

I never put anything on that spot on my abdomen, so it would be from internal. I think it was there from estrogen, so it could have been removed by the Vitex I take more than the niacinamide, but I'm not sure. Maybe both.

I stopped using the homemade mixture, and started using Cerave PM. It does have some questionable ingredients, but I like it. I use it on my face, neck, chest, sometimes hands.
 

dukez07

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I think I might be a strange case with regards to Niacinamide. I've taken up to 9/10g per day and noticed absolutely nothing at all. I don't even get tired. I am very sensitive in noticing how supplements affect me. I think this is the first one that I've ever taken where I don't notice anything at all. Of course, there is a possibility that the batch I have is garbage.
 

Peata

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I stopped supplementing niacinamide several days ago and seem to feel better as far as blood sugar issues and headaches. I can now go longer and do more activity without needing to eat constantly. I notice when I get hungry though, I'm really hungry and can eat a lot.
 

honeybee

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I tried niacinamide for 3 weeks-I ramped up my dose from 100 mgx3 to 500mgx3 or 4. I experienced overwhelming fatigue at 500 mg per dose. I also experienced ALOT of hair shed in my brush and while showering. I dropped the dose down to 100 mg 2-3 /xs a day and the hair loss stopped to normal. (I have never had hair loss issues.) The good news is that at 100 mg dose, I sleep much better at night. I was experieincing severe insomnia since march of this yeasr. I actually drop off to sleep (major problem with me) easily and stay asleep. No unusual fatigue in the morning. No depresssion issues. I also experience clarity of thought with the 100 mg does-I can actually sit and read through a Ray Peat newsletter and comprehend most of it. It has helped me with anxiety and racing thoughts-mainly related to sleep. (I was using cynomel at night and I was sleeping well but that effect wore off after a week or so. ) I think I will stay at the 100mg dose indefinitely. Thumbs up to a supplement that is actually helpful. :D
EDIT-I have used it for about a year in homemade facial cream. Nothing dramatic with this use.
 

purbec

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I once took 1000mg of niacin - yes the flushing type. I had no idea back then about the flushing! I had read about it being good for anxiety and was so desperate for anything to help!
I had extreme anxiety back then, everything startled me, i was a complete mess.

The 1g dose caused intense flushing allover my body. It was extremely painful..and i felt very nauseated. I wasn't sure what was going to happen next...and luckily within the hour the flushing started to subside.

The next morning i felt WONDERFUL! NO ANXIETY! It was such a strange feeling to not feel so on edge and tense...i felt reborn!

Obviously i couldn't repeat that dose with flushing Niacin and got some niacinamide - but didn't notice the anti-anxiety effect with it.

Perhaps for those who took high dose niacinamide for a while and had to back off eventually experienced under-methylation?
The one thing i believe is recognised is niacin's ability to gobble up methyl donors, therefore high dosing could potentially leave a person feeling undermethylation symptoms..?

I personally have methylation issues - hypomethylation, which is even more confusing how high dose niacin made me feel amazing given that it lowers methylation, yet one dose of SAMe which promotes methyl donors caused me to feel instantly suicidal.

All experiments i have done always seem to have a paradoxical effect to a known imbalance i have - it's frustrating and confusing!

It's been a while since i've taken niacin - but i have had it in a multi B, just 50mg dose, which made me feel extreme nausea, sweating etc.
 
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The thing about niacinamide is that, in extensive clinical practice in the 1940s, it was found to have a short half life (about 90 minutes) and any dosage above 250 mg at a time is wasted.

The protocol then became (by inference) 250 mg every two hours, to treat a wide range of conditions, including anxiety, and no patients suffered adverse effects. Peat agrees that this dosage is probably harmless.
 

haidut

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visionofstrength said:
The thing about niacinamide is that, in extensive clinical practice in the 1940s, it was found to have a short half life (about 90 minutes) and any dosage above 250 mg at a time is wasted.

The protocol then became (by inference) 250 mg every two hours, to treat a wide range of conditions, including anxiety, and no patients suffered adverse effects. Peat agrees that this dosage is probably harmless.

Can you clarify please what you mean by "wasted"? I have seen studies (in animals) showing optimal increase in NAD from niacinamide doses equivalent to about 3g per day for a human. That would require taking more than 250mg every 4 hours. Maybe those animals models are not very reliable, but they have translated into human clinical trials like the one for Alzheimers, which used 3g daily split into either 2 doses of 1,500mg each or 3 doses of 1,000 each. I think there must be a reason for selecting that dosage and it probably comes from extrapolation based on animal studies.
 
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haidut said:
visionofstrength said:
The thing about niacinamide is that, in extensive clinical practice in the 1940s, it was found to have a short half life (about 90 minutes) and any dosage above 250 mg at a time is wasted.

The protocol then became (by inference) 250 mg every two hours, to treat a wide range of conditions, including anxiety, and no patients suffered adverse effects. Peat agrees that this dosage is probably harmless.

Can you clarify please what you mean by "wasted"? I have seen studies (in animals) showing optimal increase in NAD from niacinamide doses equivalent to about 3g per day for a human. That would require taking more than 250mg every 4 hours. Maybe those animals models are not very reliable, but they have translated into human clinical trials like the one for Alzheimers, which used 3g daily split into either 2 doses of 1,500mg each or 3 doses of 1,000 each. I think there must be a reason for selecting that dosage and it probably comes from extrapolation based on animal studies.
Yes, in human clinical trials with more than 1,000 patients in the 1940s, 4-5 grams per day was used in divided doses, and the smaller more frequent doses, even as often as every hour, were 40-50% more effective than the larger less frequent doses. The work seems all but out of print, but I found some of it here:
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman2.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman3.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman4.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman5.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman6.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman7.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman8.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman9.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman10.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman11.html
http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman12.html

There's more here:
https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=kaufman ... ecular.org

I've asked Peat about Kaufman's work and he said these abnormally large but harmless doses may have a benefit from redox balancing, by shifting to a more oxidative state, rather than from co-enzyme factors.
 

Nick Ireland

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Just wanted to add to this thread on therapeutic doses of nicotinamide.
I was recently in the Middle East and exposed to strong sunshine every day and took the opportunity to sunbathe. I am fair skinned but tan pretty well. The daylight hours are short, but the cooling desert winds are deceptive and it's easy to stay out too long without feeling any sun burning - I lie in the sun in little bursts of maybe 15 mins at a time across the day.
I got some sunburn on my back and was a little ticked off for not being disciplined. However, I remembered I brought nicotinamide as part of my supps pack. I took 1000mg before bed, remembering Peat had said it could tackle sunburn. The next morning I was amazed to see it almost completely gone, and with another dose it was only one day later. So, for trips to the sun, this will always be an essential for me :):
 

acrylic

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According to websites like the Linus Pauling Institute, 3g of niacinamide a day has been linked with "signs of liver toxicity" (elevated enzymes, jaundice, etc.). Anyone have a sense of why this is, and whether or not it's a show-stopper for high dose niacinamide?

-J
 

haidut

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acrylic said:
According to websites like the Linus Pauling Institute, 3g of niacinamide a day has been linked with "signs of liver toxicity" (elevated enzymes, jaundice, etc.). Anyone have a sense of why this is, and whether or not it's a show-stopper for high dose niacinamide?

-J

Can you please provide sources showing jaundice? I have not seen evidence of niacinamide causing jaundice even at doses of 6g a day - a dose commonly used in cancer patients to "sensitize" their tumor to radiation. I would imagine that their livers are probably not in a very good shape and if niacinamide is not dangerous for them then it's probably not very dangerous for healthier people too. Of course, if it gives you a jaundice it should be stopped.
Elevated liver enzymes do not necessarily mean liver damage. One possible mechanism of action is that niacinamide depletes methionine stores:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3092&p=50931&hilit=niacinamide+choline#p36768

Methionine restriction has been shown to increase lifespan, so you would want methionine to be low but not excessively low. I guess the 3g dose of niacinamide is a sweet spot beneficial effects without endangering the liver.
Btw, the Google Books reference above references an actual study on the effects of niacinamide on methionine stores and growth. Here it is:
http://www.jbc.org/content/146/2/357.full.pdf

The niacinamide dose used in that study was quite high - human equivalent of about 15g per day. With such a high dose there was methionine depletion but NO liver damage observed.
"...When the rats were sacrificed, only the animals on the basal ration (Group A) appeared to have grossly fatty livers."
Group A was the one that ate a normal diet and did not have niacinamide / nicotinamide added to their diet.
Perhaps more importantly, niacin (nicotinic acid) was found to cause fatty livers while niacinamide / nicotinamide did not. Moreover, the rats fed niacinamide / nicotinamide had even less fat in their livers than the rats fed a control diet.
"...While nicotinic acid had no effect on the growth of these rats, nicotinamide fed at the same level strongly inhibited growth. However, the nicotinic acid did seem to increase the fat content of the livers even beyond the already high level produced by the low casein basal diet. The addition of either choline or betaine to a nicotinic acid-containing diet completely prevented the formation of fatty livers and had a faint accelerating action on growth. The livers of the rats that had been given nicotinamide contained about half as much fat as that seen in the livers of the basal controls. The rats fed methionine with the nicotinamide grew at a rate slightly greater than that of the basal control rats and their livers contained normal amounts of fat. Both cystine and homocystine were unable to restore growth in the presence of nicotinamicle and appeared to result in fattier livers than did the nicotinamide alone."
 

acrylic

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Interesting. Thanks Haidut. I'm looking for a study that shows jaundice, and will post if I find.
---

Over the past few days I've upped my dosage of Niacinamide to ~1.5-2.0 grams a day. I've taken about 500mg before bed each night, and have been a walking zombie each of the last two days. I have extreme brain fog and a HUGE headache. It's weird. I feel very rested but very lethargic at the same time. Anyone have a sense of what's going on here? The headache is brutal.
 

tara

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I don't think headaches from high dose niacinamide are unusual.

If I were you, I'd drop back to a smaller dose - at which the headaches go away - and then gradually increase, backing off a little if the headaches return. Also make sure you have adequate sugar on board when you take it.

One possible mechanism is that because niacinamide limits fat release, it forces you to use more sugar, and therefore burns through the sugar supply more quickly - which for some of us is an effective way to get a headache.
I think other possible mechanisms have been discussed elsewhere too.
 

montmorency

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acrylic said:
Interesting. Thanks Haidut. I'm looking for a study that shows jaundice, and will post if I find.
---

Over the past few days I've upped my dosage of Niacinamide to ~1.5-2.0 grams a day. I've taken about 500mg before bed each night, and have been a walking zombie each of the last two days. I have extreme brain fog and a HUGE headache. It's weird. I feel very rested but very lethargic at the same time. Anyone have a sense of what's going on here? The headache is brutal.

Re: Jaundice: if you haven't already, you might have a look at "Niacin: the Real Story", by Abram Hoffer, Andrew Saul, and Harold Foster. There are references to Jaundice on pages 59 & 61. Basically, he didn't think it was a problem, and such rare problems that have been reported he puts down to poorly made slow-release versions.
 

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