High Dose Niacinamide Experiment

jyb

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Second experiment, this time with 7,000mg taken near bedtime. Didn't feel much difference.
 

haidut

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Wow, that dose would knock me out! Did you take it at once?
 

caroline

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Haidut, I didn't really understand what you meant about constipation and niacinamide. I thought you were implying that a tendency toward this when taking niacinamide was good. Is that true? I didn't get why. I notice since I have been taking it for 2 weeks now, that I am not experiencing the laxative effect from it now. But I am not sure what this means...
 

jyb

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haidut said:
Wow, that dose would knock me out! Did you take it at once?

I did. I wasn't knocked out in any way. I took much less on my first experiment and I had noticed some light constipation (if any), seems like I noticed more effects for the lower dose though neither experiments were conclusive.
 

Lisbon boy

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Charlie, sorry about your bad experience with high dose niacinamide.
Just a update: i'm taking now 3X550 mgs at breakfast and lunch, and 4X550 mgs at night.
Before i start this experiment i was doing ondansetron 2X2 mgs, but now i reduced to 2X1 mg because is very expensive ( i drink the ampoule of zofran injec. because the tablets have very bad excipients ). I'm also taking cascara 2X425 mgs ( nature's way ) and no constipation.
With niacinamide started to notice a clear and progressive improvement at the level of libido/arousal, ever felt with ondansetron or cyproheptadine or even tianeptine. I am sure that niacinamide should be interfering strongly with the levels of prolactin (and serotonin), downloading them. I will soon make blood tests to compare with the latest and take the opportunity to check testosterone levels. Interestingly nor vitamin B6 or zinc I had brought any benefit in this area.
With this dosage I slept better, I feel more relaxed, but not sedated.

“Niacinamide, one of the B vitamins, provides energy to the mitochondrial system. Under stress and strong excitation, cells waste niacinamide NADH, but niacinamide itself has a sedative antiexcitatory effect, and some of its actions resemble a hormone. Estrogen tends to interfere with the formation of niacin from tryptophan. Tryptophan, rather than forming the sedative niacin (pyridine carboxylic acid), can be directed toward formation of the excitatory quinolinic acid (pyridine dicarboxylic acid) by polyunsaturated fats. Excitation must be in balance with a cell’s energetic resources, and niacinamide can play multiple protective roles, decreasing excitation, increasing energy production, and stabilizing repair systems. The stat of excitation and type of energy metabolism are crucial factors in governing cell functions and survival.” RP

“The amino acid theanine, found in tea, has been reported to decrease the amount of serotonin in the brain, probably by decreasing its synthesis and increasing its degradation. This seems to be the opposite of the processes in hibernation. Progesterone, thyroid, and niacinamide (not nicotinic acid or inositol hexanicotinate) are other safe substances that help to reduce serotonin formation, and/or accelerate its elimination. (Niacinamide seems to increase serotonin uptake.)” RP
 

jyb

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Ah, so RP does differ in a major way from Hoffer, who had a slight pref for niacin: "not nicotinic acid or inositol hexanicotinate"
 

haidut

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Peata said:
haidut said:
If I am not mistaken, those are symptoms of lowered serotonin caroline. I get those from ondansetron and many others on this forum have experienced similar sensations as well. Keep us posted on how it unfolds.

So you don't get that same experience with your high, yet spread-out dose of niacinamide? You only have it when you take one real high dose at once like Caroline?


Yes, I only get those effects from 4,000mg and up of niacinamide Peata. Lower doses spread out throughout the day do not do that for me. I think the half-half of "smaller" doses of niacinamide (500mg-1500mg) is just too short to get that effect. I read a study that for anything lower than 2,000mg the half-life is about 30min and almost everything gets extensively converted to NAD+.
 

haidut

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caroline said:
Haidut, I didn't really understand what you meant about constipation and niacinamide. I thought you were implying that a tendency toward this when taking niacinamide was good. Is that true? I didn't get why. I notice since I have been taking it for 2 weeks now, that I am not experiencing the laxative effect from it now. But I am not sure what this means...


Caroline, I did not mean to say that constipation is good per se but rather that constipation is a good sign that at least gut serotonin has been lowered. For me at least, niacinamide definitely does that so I have to sometimes take Cascara as well.
 

haidut

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Here is a study that supports Ray's statement that niacinamide increases serotonin uptake, an effect similar to tianeptine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8588246

In this case, uptake was increased by 41% since it was 41% lower in diabetic rats and niacinamide brought it back up to the level of controls. The dose used corresponds to a human dose of 2,500mg-3,000 daily for a period of 14 days.
I may try to get the actual study from the Russian scientists.
 

aguilaroja

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Thanks for the wonderful reference. On perusing, niacinamide seems to have protective properties for both the brain and peripheral nerves, likely for its serotonin lowering effect and other effects. (I have not cross checked-excuse me if this is a duplicate reference. Link to full article included):

J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2007 Jan;320(1):458-64. Epub 2006 Oct 4.
Nicotinamide reverses neurological and neurovascular deficits in streptozotocin diabetic rats.
Stevens MJ, Li F, Drel VR, Abatan OI, Kim H, Burnett D, Larkin D, Obrosova IG.
Source

Division of Medical Sciences, The Medical School, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, B15 2TT, UK. [email protected]

In diabetes, activation of the nuclear enzyme poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP) is an important effector of oxidative-nitrosative injury, which contributes to the development of experimental diabetic peripheral neuropathy (DPN). However, the potential toxicity of complete PARP inhibition necessitates the utilization of weaker PARP inhibitors with additional therapeutic properties. Nicotinamide (vitamin B3) is a weak PARP inhibitor, antioxidant, and calcium modulator and can improve energy status and inhibit cell death in ischemic tissues. We report the dose-dependent effects of nicotinamide in an established model of early DPN. Control and streptozotocin-diabetic rats were treated with 200 to 400 mg/kg/day nicotinamide (i.p.) for 2 weeks after 2 weeks of untreated diabetes. Sciatic endoneurial nutritive blood flow was measured by microelectrode polarography and hydrogen clearance, and sciatic motor and hind-limb digital sensory nerve conduction velocities and thermal and mechanical algesia were measured by standard electrophysiological and behavioral tests. Malondialdehyde plus 4-hydroxyalkenal concentration in the sciatic nerve and amino acid-(4)-hydroxynonenal adduct and poly(ADP-ribosyl)ated protein expression in human Schwann cells were assessed by a colorimetric method with N-methyl-2-phenyl indole and Western blot analysis, respectively. Nicotinamide corrected increased sciatic nerve lipid peroxidation in concert with nerve perfusion deficits and dose-dependently attenuated nerve conduction slowing, as well as mechanical and thermal hyperalgesia. Nicotinamide (25 mM) prevented high (30 mM) glucose-induced overexpression of amino acid-(4)-hydroxynonenal adducts and poly(ADP-ribosyl)ated proteins in human Schwann cells. In conclusion, nicotinamide deserves consideration as an attractive, nontoxic therapy for the treatment of DPN.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/pmidl ... d=17021258

haidut said:
Here is a study that supports Ray's statement that niacinamide increases serotonin uptake, an effect similar to tianeptine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8588246

In this case, uptake was increased by 41% since it was 41% lower in diabetic rats and niacinamide brought it back up to the level of controls. The dose used corresponds to a human dose of 2,500mg-3,000 daily for a period of 14 days.
I may try to get the actual study from the Russian scientists.
 

Peata

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I started taking 1,500 mg. niacinamide daily yesterday. It's all in one pill. It's an extended release but that's all they had at the HFS.
 

caroline

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How do you like it? That seems to be my magic number. Just that amount--no more, seems perfect.
 

Peata

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I'm not sure yet. Do you know if it should be 1,500 mg. all at once without extended release? When I took 1,000 mg. or so a couple weeks back, it wasn't extended release and I definitely felt an effect.

As long as it will still have the same overall effect I'm OK with it. But if it's necessary to have it dumped in the system all at once, I will have to get another kind. I do like this because you just take one pill per day. The other kind I had was 100 mg. at a time and I had to take a lot.
 

juanitacarlos

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I thought I would jump on the bandwagon...I just took 1500mg (morning). Will see how I go and take another 1500mg tonight.
 

juanitacarlos

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So I took 1500mg in the morning and the same early in the afternoon. In the afternoon dose I took 2g of L-Tyrosine. Didn't feel much - maybe a bit more chilled, but more clear headed. In the late afternoon I got super hungry. And then at 9pm I got so tired - more sleepy than I normally feel so went to bed and slept for nine hours - which is monumental for me. I would definitely do this again to just relax and get a good nights sleep. I would increase the dose as well just to see what happens.
 

caroline

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Less is working fine for me now. It feels like it has an incremental healing effect b/c to begin with, if I took only 500 versus none of niacinamide, I felt worse. This was every time. Not now.

In terms of larger dosing, I have done 3000 mg pretty close together (taking 1500, waiting about 45 minutes, then taking 1500 more) when I had severe anxiety. It helped.

I sort of didn't believe it when Haidut said things would improve, (kind of funny I felt this-a belief stimulated by anxiety--i.e. I will be stuck this way) but they actually have. And this was really becoming an impediment to living so I can definitely affirm to niacinamide's benefits along with the diet in general.
 

aquaman

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haidut said:
caroline said:
Haidut,

In your experience with the Niacinamide thus far, do you still experience the benefits once you stop supplementation or is it necessary to continue with it in order to reap these benefits?


To me niacinamide is more like a mind drug (pretty much like LSD was back in 60s) that you can take after a hectic day and it would immediately stop the stress response (if taken properly with enough sugar), and reverse the mental (and some of the physical) damage the stress that day did to you. If you that study on high dose niacinamide it says that niacinamide acts like a true serotonin inverse agonist on all serotonin "receptors". That's pretty much how Ray described LSD in one of his articles - i.e. "LSD is a powerful serotonin (approximate) antagonist".
A lot of that hectic day damage is concentrated in the stomach (where over 90% of serotonin is synthesized) and stomach issues like IBD and Chron's are known to have elevated serotonin causing bizarre synptoms like crazy/psychotic racing thoughts. Since niacinamide seems for me to decrease gut serotonin I reserve the high dose of niacinamide for those purposes - i.e. normalize mental health and gut health after a truly hectic day. Btw, for me the effect does NOT wear off. I mean, the effect after a high dose of niacinamide does wear off the next day but the next dose does not have to be larger to somehow compensate for me getting used to it. Then again, I only use the high doses (6,000mg-8,000mg) in extreme cases when I feel like I do need the extra punch.
Aside from that I take "lower" daily dosage of it that are still higher than what Ray mentions. I am taking the vitamin B "energy punch", which (as I mentioned to caroline) for me comes comes down to taking two doses (one in morning and one in evening) of the following:

Niacinamide: one capsule 500mg
Thiamine: 5 capsules x 300mg each for a total of 1,500mg
Riboflavin: 2 capsules x 100mg in each for 200mg total
B comples combo capsule: has 5mg B6, 5mg B5, 500mcg biotin, etc.

So, my "normal" niacinamide intake is 1,000mg daily (500mg morning and 500mg evening) as part of the vitamin B regimen. I know that seems a lot to some people but I am convinced that it is the niacinamide that got me from a pre-diabetic state of full ketosis back to sugar oxidation. I was on paleo diet for about 2 years and when I stopped I would still taste the acetone on my lips and my sweat would smell like ketones even when I was drinking pure sugar. People were noticing and asking if I use nail polish, it was that bad of a ketosis state. So, about 6 months after my flirt with niacinamide things normalized. It could have been the diet as well, but every time I would take a 500mg niacinamide pill the ketone smell/taste would go away in 30min-60min. So, in hindsight everything is 20/20 I guess.

how's this been working for you?
 

haidut

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aquaman said:
haidut said:
caroline said:
Haidut,

In your experience with the Niacinamide thus far, do you still experience the benefits once you stop supplementation or is it necessary to continue with it in order to reap these benefits?


To me niacinamide is more like a mind drug (pretty much like LSD was back in 60s) that you can take after a hectic day and it would immediately stop the stress response (if taken properly with enough sugar), and reverse the mental (and some of the physical) damage the stress that day did to you. If you that study on high dose niacinamide it says that niacinamide acts like a true serotonin inverse agonist on all serotonin "receptors". That's pretty much how Ray described LSD in one of his articles - i.e. "LSD is a powerful serotonin (approximate) antagonist".
A lot of that hectic day damage is concentrated in the stomach (where over 90% of serotonin is synthesized) and stomach issues like IBD and Chron's are known to have elevated serotonin causing bizarre synptoms like crazy/psychotic racing thoughts. Since niacinamide seems for me to decrease gut serotonin I reserve the high dose of niacinamide for those purposes - i.e. normalize mental health and gut health after a truly hectic day. Btw, for me the effect does NOT wear off. I mean, the effect after a high dose of niacinamide does wear off the next day but the next dose does not have to be larger to somehow compensate for me getting used to it. Then again, I only use the high doses (6,000mg-8,000mg) in extreme cases when I feel like I do need the extra punch.
Aside from that I take "lower" daily dosage of it that are still higher than what Ray mentions. I am taking the vitamin B "energy punch", which (as I mentioned to caroline) for me comes comes down to taking two doses (one in morning and one in evening) of the following:

Niacinamide: one capsule 500mg
Thiamine: 5 capsules x 300mg each for a total of 1,500mg
Riboflavin: 2 capsules x 100mg in each for 200mg total
B comples combo capsule: has 5mg B6, 5mg B5, 500mcg biotin, etc.

So, my "normal" niacinamide intake is 1,000mg daily (500mg morning and 500mg evening) as part of the vitamin B regimen. I know that seems a lot to some people but I am convinced that it is the niacinamide that got me from a pre-diabetic state of full ketosis back to sugar oxidation. I was on paleo diet for about 2 years and when I stopped I would still taste the acetone on my lips and my sweat would smell like ketones even when I was drinking pure sugar. People were noticing and asking if I use nail polish, it was that bad of a ketosis state. So, about 6 months after my flirt with niacinamide things normalized. It could have been the diet as well, but every time I would take a 500mg niacinamide pill the ketone smell/taste would go away in 30min-60min. So, in hindsight everything is 20/20 I guess.

how's this been working for you?

Works well, although I am not sure what you mean by that. I take it for energy purposes during a stressful day and it works very well for fatigue and stress. Other than that, I think it also helps with inflammation from exercise if you overdo it.
 

Peata

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Anyone besides me still taking niacinamide?

I'm still taking 1,500 mg. extended release. I have to say that I don't feel a noticeable effect from that amount, I guess because it's not dumping into my system all at once.

However, I can't say that it's not working at all. I am taking different B vitamins among other things and I know I'm a lot calmer these days. I think it's the B vits working together. Things that use to bother me aren't such a big deal now. I go with the flow more. I get things accomplished once I get started.
 
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charlie

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I am taking 50mg 3 times a day right now.
 

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