High DHEA, low T, 20s male; Help with blood work interpretation.

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EnergeticLeo

EnergeticLeo

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@Jessie @Ned Nederlander it seem you are both pretty much in agreement, in that my T levels are indeed on the low end, and that getting them up naturally with the basics is the first thing to try.

There may be some disagreement on how much I need to increase them by, but we can get to the finer details later!

I appreciate both your responses.
 

redsun

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OK thanks for you detailed response. I'll certainly consider all of this moving forward.

What I don't understand is why high fructose taxes the liver - I was of the impression that fructose best increases liver glycogen which is needed for good liver function?
And also how does retinol tax the liver? I've been sticking to Peat's conservative figure of around 10K IU / day.
Finally, what would an appropriate zinc:copper ratio be in your opinion?

I've also been thinking about the fluid intake issue a lot and for a while experimented with Matt Stone's "eat for heat" guidelines with the aim of increasing blood osmolarity, but then I remembered haidut and Peat talking about how for every 1000 calories burnt you evaporate around 1L of water, suggesting that drinking sugary liquids should not lead to overhydration as would happen with drinking water.

You raise a good point about the cold liquids lowering my own temperatures, though.

Thanks again!!

Here are my minerals from a typical day of eating:
View attachment 46029
It will increase liver fat. This can be mitigated by choline which you do seem to get in this diet which is necessary to export fat from the liver. You shouldnt drop sugar but you have a ton and which could be worsening liver problems so having some starch for carbs instead may be a good idea. If that was your only issue that is not that concerning.

CM has a good article on this:

This retinol debate is old. And we have a giant thread of people who did very similarly to what you do now and ended up with problems from too much preformed retinol. You do not need that much. All you are doing now is storing it in the liver which is also iron overloaded.

Zinc to copper should be 10 to 1 or close to it. But its not just the ratio. Like I said before your daily copper intake should not be chronically high (>2mg). Zinc 20-30mg a day is a good limit and I see now you are getting about this much but your copper is just higher than it should be.

You do realize that in the moment when you drink say a liter of liquid for example, you do not burn through that liquid instantly. The moment your body senses too much water it starts to excrete.

The liquids you use do have a lot of carbs which also makes you hold onto the water for longer as glycogen holds water. But even if you are not urinating like crazy from this which would signal overhydration, you still have the issue of consuming cold liquids. That alone is enough to cause problems especially if the climate is cold where you live. There are many (myself included) who in the past dealt with this issue. Only after avoiding excessive cold liquid consumption did I stop feeling cold so easily.
 

Jessie

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No one here told the OP to get on TRT.

You said his T levels aren’t broken because they are in the reference range. The reference range for TT is a joke. Twenty something’s should not have TT levels in the 400’s. I don’t care who you are, you will not have the same level of vigor, confidence, strength, etc with levels like this.

His levels are abysmal for someone in their 20’s, and I’m pretty confident he would feel much better if he bumped them up (naturally) above 700 at least.

As the others have said, possibly if he corrects his other health issues, his TT level will trend upward.

I firmly believe health issues are the cause of the testosterone decline in aging males, not the act of aging itself. So many 20 and 30 year old males are presenting with levels below 500, which speaks pretty negatively to their overall health IMO.

After those health issues and other concerning lab results are corrected, things like lifting weights, losing fat/building muscle, eating more egg yolks/saturated fat, eliminating seed oil consumption, etc can go a long way in bumping up T for most.
Yes indeed. I would not suggest that a 500 level is the "exemplary" example for optimal testosterone. But it's not exactly broken, either. I've seen 18 year olds with T levels not even half as good as this. Definitely not worth hormone replacement therapy IMO.

I apologize if I wasn't straightforward with this notion in my original post, but I thought it was heavily inferred (given the general knowledge most people have on this forum).

The DHEA+Progesterone might bring the levels up in the ranges that make OP feel better. It could also raise his estrogen. DHEA is a very "hit or miss" protocol. I know this just from my own experiences with it. I would definitely recommend no lower than a 3:1 ratio of progesterone to DHEA if this is tried. I think Hadiut actually recommend 8:1 in another thread somewhere.

What's more, normally I would recommend zinc is a great thing to supplement, but his zinc levels (as well as calcium levels) all seem to be very good.

Higher levels of NAD is needed for some of the enzymes responsible for converting pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA into the more potent androgens. Some perhaps some niacinamide would do him some good.
 

Jessie

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One more thing worth noting, DHEA-S is not guranteed to convert back into the active form of DHEA. So just because DHEA-S is high does not mean DHEA is where it should be.
 
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EnergeticLeo

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One more thing worth noting, DHEA-S is not guranteed to convert back into the active form of DHEA. So just because DHEA-S is high does not mean DHEA is where it should be.
Yes!!! I learnt this last night.
 
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EnergeticLeo

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Yes indeed. I would not suggest that a 500 level is the "exemplary" example for optimal testosterone. But it's not exactly broken, either. I've seen 18 year olds with T levels not even half as good as this. Definitely not worth hormone replacement therapy IMO.

I apologize if I wasn't straightforward with this notion in my original post, but I thought it was heavily inferred (given the general knowledge most people have on this forum).

The DHEA+Progesterone might bring the levels up in the ranges that make OP feel better. It could also raise his estrogen. DHEA is a very "hit or miss" protocol. I know this just from my own experiences with it. I would definitely recommend no lower than a 3:1 ratio of progesterone to DHEA if this is tried. I think Hadiut actually recommend 8:1 in another thread somewhere.

What's more, normally I would recommend zinc is a great thing to supplement, but his zinc levels (as well as calcium levels) all seem to be very good.

Higher levels of NAD is needed for some of the enzymes responsible for converting pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA into the more potent androgens. Some perhaps some niacinamide would do him some good.
Thanks.

I sporadically take niacinamide, but haven't noticed anything beneficial from it. I will continue to test it more thoroughly, however.

What DHEA protocol worked best / did not work for you?
 
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EnergeticLeo

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It will increase liver fat. This can be mitigated by choline which you do seem to get in this diet which is necessary to export fat from the liver. You shouldnt drop sugar but you have a ton and which could be worsening liver problems so having some starch for carbs instead may be a good idea. If that was your only issue that is not that concerning.

CM has a good article on this:

This retinol debate is old. And we have a giant thread of people who did very similarly to what you do now and ended up with problems from too much preformed retinol. You do not need that much. All you are doing now is storing it in the liver which is also iron overloaded.

Zinc to copper should be 10 to 1 or close to it. But its not just the ratio. Like I said before your daily copper intake should not be chronically high (>2mg). Zinc 20-30mg a day is a good limit and I see now you are getting about this much but your copper is just higher than it should be.

You do realize that in the moment when you drink say a liter of liquid for example, you do not burn through that liquid instantly. The moment your body senses too much water it starts to excrete.

The liquids you use do have a lot of carbs which also makes you hold onto the water for longer as glycogen holds water. But even if you are not urinating like crazy from this which would signal overhydration, you still have the issue of consuming cold liquids. That alone is enough to cause problems especially if the climate is cold where you live. There are many (myself included) who in the past dealt with this issue. Only after avoiding excessive cold liquid consumption did I stop feeling cold so easily.
Would higher fructose, as in fruit juice, not be less likely to lead to liver fat than an equivalent amount of starch, since it's more pro-metabolic (more CO2 production, less need for insulin etc...)?

Ok I will study the retinol thread in detail - do you have a link?
How would one know if they are deficient in vitamin A?
What things have led you to the ~ 2mg / day copper intake?

I actually eat every hour (inspired by William Brown) and that has helped tremendously with energy and headaches. Each meal may have a few 100 ml of liquid, so hopefully not too much. I also monitor my urine with a refractometer to make sure it isn't too dilute.

Based on your suggestion, however, I will start to put my juice for the day in my warm room, rather in the fridge, so it doesn't cool me down so much :D

Once again, thanks!
 

Jessie

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Thanks.

I sporadically take niacinamide, but haven't noticed anything beneficial from it. I will continue to test it more thoroughly, however.

What DHEA protocol worked best / did not work for you?
I made a DIY solution of DHEA and Progesterone with the same ratios that's in Haidut's CortiNon production. My solution was dissolved in a mixture of DMSO and vitamin E. about 20ml of DMSO and 10ml of vitamin E. I added the vitamin E to soothe the irritation effects of DMSO, it also slightly prolongs the absorption process, giving it a more stable release. The dosage I took was 5 drops 3x daily. So about 45mgs of Prog and 15mgs of DHEA.

This worked good. It wasn't like a game changer or anything, but I could feel a boost. It was good enough that I started experimenting with other protocols that got me into trouble, lol. I made a pure DHEA supplement that I started applying daily. It was 20mgs per dose 3 x daily. So 60mgs daily. The immediate benefits were PROFOUND. Drastic increase in libido, cognitive function, strength, excellent sleep, vivid dreams, etc.

After about 10 days of use this started to give me problems. Water retention, higher BP, sometimes vision disturbances. Basically pro-estrogen, pro-stress like symptoms.

I thought about trying this again with a aromatase inhibitor like exemestane, but haven't been brave enough to give it a go just yet. Because it took several days to return back to normal even after completely discontinuing.

So, my advice is to stick with the smaller dosages like people recommend on here. However, I wouldn't expect drastic improvements with the small doses.
 
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EnergeticLeo

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I made a DIY solution of DHEA and Progesterone with the same ratios that's in Haidut's CortiNon production. My solution was dissolved in a mixture of DMSO and vitamin E. about 20ml of DMSO and 10ml of vitamin E. I added the vitamin E to soothe the irritation effects of DMSO, it also slightly prolongs the absorption process, giving it a more stable release. The dosage I took was 5 drops 3x daily. So about 45mgs of Prog and 15mgs of DHEA.

This worked good. It wasn't like a game changer or anything, but I could feel a boost. It was good enough that I started experimenting with other protocols that got me into trouble, lol. I made a pure DHEA supplement that I started applying daily. It was 20mgs per dose 3 x daily. So 60mgs daily. The immediate benefits were PROFOUND. Drastic increase in libido, cognitive function, strength, excellent sleep, vivid dreams, etc.

After about 10 days of use this started to give me problems. Water retention, higher BP, sometimes vision disturbances. Basically pro-estrogen, pro-stress like symptoms.

I thought about trying this again with a aromatase inhibitor like exemestane, but haven't been brave enough to give it a go just yet. Because it took several days to return back to normal even after completely discontinuing.

So, my advice is to stick with the smaller dosages like people recommend on here. However, I wouldn't expect drastic improvements with the small doses.
Thanks for sharing - very interesting indeed!

In theory there should be a specific dosage where you retain those DHEA benefits, but get none of the estrogenic symptoms.
Would be very interesting to see what'd happen combined with exemestane or even androsterone / DHT.
 

Jessie

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Thanks for sharing - very interesting indeed!

In theory there should be a specific dosage where you retain those DHEA benefits, but get none of the estrogenic symptoms.
Would be very interesting to see what'd happen combined with exemestane or even androsterone / DHT.
Androsterone would probably suffice. It antagonizes aromatase about 60% in the dosages recommended here. However I don't really like the SFA/ethanol solvent, it sucks for transdermal absorption imo. And since I don't know any suppliers selling raw androsterone (nor would I trust it, because it could be epiandrosterone), it's probably easier to just take exemestane.
 

Jessie

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You might be able to use Haidut's tocopherol version of Androsterone, and mix it with equal parts of DMSO. Never tried mixing substances already solvented into DMSO for better absorption.

Androsterone has a cholesterol lowering effect, so it definitely has benefits exemestane doesn't have. It's also acts like a beta blocker, resulting in lower BP.
 
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EnergeticLeo

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Androsterone would probably suffice. It antagonizes aromatase about 60% in the dosages recommended here. However I don't really like the SFA/ethanol solvent, it sucks for transdermal absorption imo. And since I don't know any suppliers selling raw androsterone (nor would I trust it, because it could be epiandrosterone), it's probably easier to just take exemestane.
You could try the SFA/ethanol version sublingually?
 
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Ned Nederlander

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I wouldn’t recommend any hormones at your age, except as a last resort.

Androsterone increases conversion of T to DHT, and significantly lowers estrogen. In my experience, most people feel better increasing T instead of solely focusing on increasing the conversion of T to DHT (unless maybe they have PFS). It’s easy to end up with low e2 symptoms with androsterone, which are very similar to low T symptoms.

I doubt DHEA is worth the squeeze at your age, and progesterone, for a good number of men, is feminizing. I’m pretty surprised when I read these stories from men having good effects with progesterone.

Generally, I wouldn’t take any type of hormone unless you’ve exhausted all other avenues. Hell I’d even avoid thyroid supplementation unless you’re firmly in the hypothyroid territory and nothing is improving it.
 
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EnergeticLeo

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I wouldn’t recommend any hormones at your age, except as a last resort.

Androsterone increases conversion of T to DHT, and significantly lowers estrogen. In my experience, most people feel better increasing T instead of solely focusing on increasing the conversion of T to DHT (unless maybe they have PFS). It’s easy to end up with low e2 symptoms with androsterone, which are very similar to low T symptoms.

I doubt DHEA is worth the squeeze at your age, and progesterone, for a good number of men, is feminizing. I’m pretty surprised when I read these stories from men having good effects with progesterone.

Generally, I wouldn’t take any type of hormone unless you’ve exhausted all other avenues. Hell I’d even avoid thyroid supplementation unless you’re firmly in the hypothyroid territory and nothing is improving it.
Ok that's interesting. Do you think a combo of androsterone + DHEA could mitigate that effect? e.g. Remarkable Synergistic Effect Of Androsterone With DHEA

Sure, progesterone on its own may be feminising, but Peat has mentioned that just a few milligrams of DHEA reversed that effect. And in the modern world I suspect many men are walking around with very high estrogen and cortisol levels, in which case progesterone could be androgenic.

My overall impression is that the modern environment is so bad that most people could do with a boost of the protective steroids, at the very minimum some pregnenolone. I think it can just be hard to know how to use them to get only benefits and no drawbacks. Your point about people feeling better increasing T rather than DHT is something I'll definitely keep in mind though.
 

Risingfire

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OK.

I think so, but it's hard to say, since I immediately put on multiple layers and turn the heater on after waking, so I'm not sure if breakfast is increasing my temps. My temps only noticeably rise in the second half of the day. I usually feel my best right before bed.
You should consider taking niacinamide. And if that doesn't warm you up then possibly thyroid.
 

Risingfire

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"Could be higher" is not the same thing as low. Most men feel their best between 650-700 ng/dl. If you're willing to crash your own production with TRT just to raise it 100-150 points have at it.....doc. But the better solution is to optimize thryoid and get prolactin at the lower end of the reference range, then reassesses the numbers.
I never suggested TRT. I did quite the opposite if you look back.

And agreed thyroid is most likely the best solution but it's also the most complicated
 
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