High Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium. Low Sodium and Copper

[Smitty]

Any insights as to what would result in this strange balance of electrolytes? A typical day/week of eating for me includes: fruit, fruit juice, eggs, milk, maple syrup, honey, ground beef, liver, oysters, rice, icecream and a total of about 5g of salt. I supplement 1.5 grains of thyroid, 200mg magnesium, 5mg K2, and use a sperti lamp for vitamin D. Recent symptoms include extreme fatigue, flushing, and other general hypothyroid symptoms even though my latest thyroid labs look excellent. I'm thinking this could be due to my low selenium? The high aluminum is alarming; would high silica water be a good place to start?

I appreciate everyones inputs!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I am surprised that someone on a Ray Peat diet has iron levels above normal? You are obviously eating too much red meat or having vitamin C foods with it and/or not having enough or any coffee? With your aluminum levels I would think about reducing it by changing your cookware or maybe ditching deodorant might help? Your low copper is surprising since you eat liver? Low selenium, are you eating any weekly shellfish? Your phosphorus being unusually high indicates too many grains, cokes, nuts, meats or what???

 

[Smitty]

I am surprised that someone on a Ray Peat diet has iron levels above normal? You are obviously eating too much red meat or having vitamin C foods with it and/or not having enough or any coffee? With your aluminum levels I would think about reducing it by changing your cookware or maybe ditching deodorant might help? Your low copper is surprising since you eat liver? Low selenium, are you eating any weekly shellfish? Your phosphorus being unusually high indicates too many grains, cokes, nuts, meats or what???

For some additional context, I've been Peating for almost 2 years now. Prior, I was on a carnivore diet for 1 year. I typically consume ½ pound of ground beef daily and tend to avoid combining it with OJ or other vitamin C rich foods. Ferritin levels hover around 90 without blood donation. During my carnivore phase I donated quarterly as the levels crept up. I very rarely consume coffee but good thought, I should have it more often. I'm hyper aware of my cookware and have used aluminum free personal care products for many years now. I too was surprised about my copper and selenium levels as I consume foods that are rich in both on a weekly basis. No nuts, grains, coke for 2+ years and I consume adequate calcium to offset the phosphorous levels of meat. I'm stumped.

Thanks a bunch for the reply!

 

[shanny]

For some additional context, I've been Peating for almost 2 years now. Prior, I was on a carnivore diet for 1 year. I typically consume ½ pound of ground beef daily and tend to avoid combining it with OJ or other vitamin C rich foods. Ferritin levels hover around 90 without blood donation. During my carnivore phase I donated quarterly as the levels crept up. I very rarely consume coffee but good thought, I should have it more often. I'm hyper aware of my cookware and have used aluminum free personal care products for many years now. I too was surprised about my copper and selenium levels as I consume foods that are rich in both on a weekly basis. No nuts, grains, coke for 2+ years and I consume adequate calcium to offset the phosphorous levels of meat. I'm stumped.

Thanks a bunch for the reply!

I'm just seeing this thread now, but are you doing any better? Did you have any of the symptoms you are describing while you were on the carnivore diet, or just since you have been eating more pro-metabolic?

 

[Smitty]

I'm just seeing this thread now, but are you doing any better? Did you have any of the symptoms you are describing while you were on the carnivore diet, or just since you have been eating more pro-metabolic?

Thanks for reading through!

After receiving a corrected results PDF (typos in original reference ranges), I've discovered my copper is actually above range while sodium is actually in range but my Na:K ratio still remains alarmingly low. My symptoms are still present and seemingly worsening. The carnivore honeymoon was great but as energy levels began to fall and reproductive/thyroid hormones tanked with it, I moved on to pro-metabolic eating. I felt great at first but in similar fashion to Carnivore, the list of issues is beginning to lengthen. The issues don't parallel so I therefore attribute some of my issues to the pro-metabolic approach. Although, I acknowledge the nuance because other factors in my life have changed as well; most notably an increase in stress due to a shift in my career.

Having never done an HTMA in the past I unfortunately have no baseline to compare to. Here's my very surface level understanding of what's going on here: The high tissue potassium (low blood level, as confirmed by blood test) means my body is storing available potassium rather than utilizing it correctly. This is likely due to heavy metal accumulation – lead and aluminum blocking/interfering with its pathological route. Another factor at play here could be an elevated amount of glucocorticoids from elevated stress and/or poor sugar metabolism. My energy levels throughout the day remains low even after consuming copious amounts of carbs so I'm going to try Haidut's Pyrucet to see if this jumpstarts my sugar metabolism.

My heart rate is often elevated in the morning; hovering around 90-110 at rest. I theorize based on my research that my heart may be working harder due to lack of available potassium. My T3 was also slightly above the reference range in a recent thyroid lab so this could also result in the high HR but my extremities are more often than not ice cold. This could also be because my selenium levels are low.

Right now I'm working on mobilizing the heavy metals from my tissues via Fiji water (the silica is said to displace the aluminum) and magnesium malate. I am pending results for a cortisol curve. It may be a valuable metric in seeing the state of my adrenals.

There's a lot to dissect here but I figured I'd lay it all on the table in case someone can help me understand what's going on here. Again, thanks for reading!

 

[shanny]

There's a lot to dissect here but I figured I'd lay it all on the table in case someone can help me understand what's going on here. Again, thanks for reading!

Thank you for so much detail, you are clearly on the right track here. I wouldn't worry too much about your Cu for now, because of the intricate balance between Fe/Zn/Cu, I think the parameter to work on to is to get your Fe overload to decrease a bit, and that may improve the balance overall.

My heart rate is often elevated in the morning; hovering around 90-110 at rest. I theorize based on my research that my heart may be working harder due to lack of available potassium. My T3 was also slightly above the reference range in a recent thyroid lab so this could also result in the high HR but my extremities are more often than not ice cold. This could also be because my selenium levels are low.

This is most likely stress hormones. The liver gets low on glycogen during the nighttime fast, the adrenals kick up cortisol etc to increase blood glucose and you get a bit of a stress response. You could be right about the potassium, but I have seen more often than not when people have cortisol testing, they are getting an early spike. Also, lab testing is great for numbers, but I would encourage you to listen to your body and your symptoms. If you are having hypothyroid symptoms, or "feeling" hypothyroid, then bingo. Testing doesn't tell us much about cellular function, or what minerals/metals/hormones are intracellular vs what's in your serum/blood stream. I see this so often where testing shows us one thing, but the persons symptoms are telling different story.

For the aluminum, do you drink out of cans by any chance? This is just a personal anecdote, but a while ago I was drinking cans of seltzer water like crazy and I started to notice a metallic taste in my mouth. As soon as I stopped drinking out of cans and used some metal chelation strategies, the taste went away in a few days. I think that canned drinks can be a source of aluminum. Also, vaxxines. Have you had any recently? It's a preservative they use, and I've seen this after things like Hep B, Cov!d, DTaP etc.

This is likely due to heavy metal accumulation – lead and aluminum blocking/interfering with its pathological route.

If this were me, this would be my first mode of attack. Sounds like you are on the right track with the Fiji water. This strategy is not very Peaty, but this has worked for me in the past, and few people I have worked with. Soluble fiber in short spells will help to pull some of these metals out of your system. I actually just recently had to do this with my puppy. He had to get a rabies vax because it's illegal not to, and two days later he started having seizures. I got some psyllium powder and added it to his food. I started with a small dose and each day worked it up until it was a TBS 2x per day. I did this for about 10 days, gave him a break and then did it again for another week ( a few times a week I would also add in a teaspoon of activated charcoal as well). That was a few months ago, and he's been fine ever since. From my own personal experience with Lyme, and with other people I've helped in the past, sometimes the carrot salad just isn't enough to get some of these things out of the liver and GI tract.

As for the iron overload, you can find it in the research that fructose, Vitamin C, beta carotene and even saturated fat have been shown to increase iron absorption. (the study was done with rats, but if I remember correctly, it showed a 30% increase in iron absorption when coconut oil was used!) Sometimes I wonder if that's why many people on this forum have improvement when going low fat? Anyway, I personally only eat read meat with potatoes or rice, and keep the sources very lean with minimal to no added fat. Other things that help chelate iron are cilantro (there's been mention of that in threads in the past) and aspirin. I personally try to keep supplementation to a minimum, because it can be a slippery slope, but pure aspirin powder was helpful when I had iron overload symptoms.

In summary:
1. Reduce iron overload. Blood donation? Heavy metal chelation strategies. Eat vitamin C and fructose rich foods in the morning away from iron heavy foods.
2. Morning cortisol/increased HR: do you do a bedtime snack? I know it helps some people to have ice cream or yogurt and honey or something to fuel the liver through the night.
3. Supplements: I would keep this to a minimum for now and maybe just try some pure aspirin with the K2. I have not personally used Pyrucet, as aspirin and occasional niacinamide worked well for me, but people seem to do really well with it on the forum.

 

[Smitty]

This is most likely stress hormones. The liver gets low on glycogen during the nighttime fast, the adrenals kick up cortisol etc to increase blood glucose and you get a bit of a stress response.

Good point! Although getting in tune with what your body is telling you is the most valuable tool, I'm eager to see what my cortisol curve looks like.

For the aluminum, do you drink out of cans by any chance?

Prior to the discovery of my elevated aluminum levels, I typically consumed a can of coconut water every weekday. Occasional canned pineapple and weekly oysters as well. During my carnivore phase I often consumed sardines. In hindsight, my hypothyroid status probably left my body with little energy to handle the toxic burden. I hope I can see a decline in these levels! I also had about 25g of gelatin per day from bovine bones instead of the hide which was foolish as the bones accumulate metals like lead.

Also, vaxxines. Have you had any recently?

Most recently, the flu shot in 2018. Never again...

This strategy is not very Peaty, but this has worked for me in the past, and few people I have worked with

I'm glad to hear you've had success with Fiji water. Do you have a page or website? Feel free to DM me.

Soluble fiber in short spells will help to pull some of these metals out of your system.

I have consume mushrooms daily but I will definitely try to incorporate some psyllium. I conveniently have some sitting in my pantry.

As for the iron overload, you can find it in the research that fructose, Vitamin C, beta carotene and even saturated fat have been shown to increase iron absorption. (the study was done with rats, but if I remember correctly, it showed a 30% increase in iron absorption when coconut oil was used!)

I have in fact looked into this, but brushed the info aside. Lunch usually includes ground beef, rice, and some honey or juice so I shall separate the fructose!

Morning cortisol/increased HR: do you do a bedtime snack?

Always! A sizeable bowl of icecream, yogurt, honey, and fruit. Otherwise I'm starving during the night.

You're a wealth of knowledge and I so appreciate the reply. Thanks again ?

 

[Smitty]

but pure aspirin powder was helpful when I had iron overload symptoms.

I'll add, I love aspirin too. It gives a calmness that no other supplement can. Although, I get uncontrollable nose bleeds no matter how much K2 I take.

On another note, I've been considering getting a portable sauna. It's a great avenue for detoxification and I used to sweat lightly under extreme stress or high heat but now I don't sweat whatsoever. For at least a year now.

 

[oxphoser]

For some additional context, I've been Peating for almost 2 years now. Prior, I was on a carnivore diet for 1 year. I typically consume ½ pound of ground beef daily and tend to avoid combining it with OJ or other vitamin C rich foods. Ferritin levels hover around 90 without blood donation. During my carnivore phase I donated quarterly as the levels crept up. I very rarely consume coffee but good thought, I should have it more often. I'm hyper aware of my cookware and have used aluminum free personal care products for many years now. I too was surprised about my copper and selenium levels as I consume foods that are rich in both on a weekly basis. No nuts, grains, coke for 2+ years and I consume adequate calcium to offset the phosphorous levels of meat. I'm stumped.

Thanks a bunch for the reply!

Hello Smitty,
I had elevated iron and reduced my beef consumption to once a week from 3-4 times a week and my iron levels went back into normal range. The rest of the week I ate fish, shrimp, chicken (sparingly because of the pufas) or pork. Even pork (1.3 mg iron per 100 g) has much less iron in it than beef (3.5 mg iron per 100 g).

 

[shanny]

Good point! Although getting in tune with what your body is telling you is the most valuable tool, I'm eager to see what my cortisol curve looks like.

Prior to the discovery of my elevated aluminum levels, I typically consumed a can of coconut water every weekday. Occasional canned pineapple and weekly oysters as well. During my carnivore phase I often consumed sardines. In hindsight, my hypothyroid status probably left my body with little energy to handle the toxic burden. I hope I can see a decline in these levels! I also had about 25g of gelatin per day from bovine bones instead of the hide which was foolish as the bones accumulate metals like lead.

Most recently, the flu shot in 2018. Never again...

I'm glad to hear you've had success with Fiji water. Do you have a page or website? Feel free to DM me.

I have consume mushrooms daily but I will definitely try to incorporate some psyllium. I conveniently have some sitting in my pantry.

I have in fact looked into this, but brushed the info aside. Lunch usually includes ground beef, rice, and some honey or juice so I shall separate the fructose!

Always! A sizeable bowl of icecream, yogurt, honey, and fruit. Otherwise I'm starving during the night.

You're a wealth of knowledge and I so appreciate the reply. Thanks again ?

No problem, happy to help. We've had very similar paths and also very similar symptoms. One last thing that may help with fatigue (and it looks like you may already be doing this) is keeping fats a little lower during the day. Higher fat foods/meals always slow things down, and I know personally dairy specifically will do this to me. I save the fattier meals for later in the day, like ending your night with ice cream! For me it helps with sleep, and then giving my body usable, quick energy throughout the day makes me feel a bit more energetic and less fatigued. Just a last thought! Please keep us updated on progress.

 

[shanny]

Hello Smitty,
I had elevated iron and reduced my beef consumption to once a week from 3-4 times a week and my iron levels went back into normal range. The rest of the week I ate fish, shrimp, chicken (sparingly because of the pufas) or pork. Even pork (1.3 mg iron per 100 g) has much less iron in it than beef (3.5 mg iron per 100 g).

Just curious, did you pair your meals with anything that is meant to decrease iron absorption? What do you generally have along with your protein?

This is interesting because I've been noticing lately that some people in the carnivore community have this really red tinge to their skin. I can't help but wonder if they are just loading themselves with too much iron!

 

[oxphoser]

Just curious, did you pair your meals with anything that is meant to decrease iron absorption? What do you generally have along with your protein?

This is interesting because I've been noticing lately that some people in the carnivore community have this really red tinge to their skin. I can't help but wonder if they are just loading themselves with too much iron!

shanny:
Yes! I always drink 8 ounces of milk when I eat beef. At the same time as I eat the beef. In the paper below they conclude that doing this reduces heme iron absorption by 80%.

——-

Am J Clin Nutr

. 1991 Jan;53(1):112-9.
doi: 10.1093/ajcn/53.1.112.

Calcium: effect of different amounts on nonheme- and heme-iron absorption in humans​

L Hallberg 1, M Brune, M Erlandsson, A S Sandberg, L Rossander-Hultén
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 1984335
• DOI: 10.1093/ajcn/53.1.112

 

[Smitty]

Hello Smitty,
I had elevated iron and reduced my beef consumption to once a week from 3-4 times a week and my iron levels went back into normal range. The rest of the week I ate fish, shrimp, chicken (sparingly because of the pufas) or pork. Even pork (1.3 mg iron per 100 g) has much less iron in it than beef (3.5 mg iron per 100 g).

Considering the fact I typically consume beef 5 times per week I should definitely look into other sources such as the ones you listed. Thanks!

This is interesting because I've been noticing lately that some people in the carnivore community have this really red tinge to their skin. I can't help but wonder if they are just loading themselves with too much iron!

I'm in that boat! In the past few months I get a red 'glow' that develops throughout the day that is complemented with the increased propensity to flush. I donated blood today based on your suggestion, and had an iron saturation of 60%! I feel noticeable better already.

 

[shanny]

shanny:
Yes! I always drink 8 ounces of milk when I eat beef. At the same time as I eat the beef. In the paper below they conclude that doing this reduces heme iron absorption by 80%.

——-

Am J Clin Nutr

. 1991 Jan;53(1):112-9.
doi: 10.1093/ajcn/53.1.112.

Calcium: effect of different amounts on nonheme- and heme-iron absorption in humans​

L Hallberg 1, M Brune, M Erlandsson, A S Sandberg, L Rossander-Hultén
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 1984335
• 
  
• DOI: 10.1093/ajcn/53.1.112

Awesome! Thanks for that. Funny, I always crave a glass of milk with a steak and potato. The body knows, doesn't it??

 

[shanny]

Considering the fact I typically consume beef 5 times per week I should definitely look into other sources such as the ones you listed. Thanks!

I'm in that boat! In the past few months I get a red 'glow' that develops throughout the day that is complemented with the increased propensity to flush. I donated blood today based on your suggestion, and had an iron saturation of 60%! I feel noticeable better already.

The first time I donated blood it was like an outer body experience. I woke up the next morning for the first time in years and didn't have any aches and pains! I had always thought that it was from Lyme disease I was diagnosed with a while ago, but as soon as I relieved my tissues of that excess iron, I felt like a whole new person! So glad you feel better.

That will also allow your body to better utilize Cu, too. So hopefully that will be in a better balance now!