high calcium intake + baking soda = milk alkali??

[janelle]

Has anyone heard that having a high calcium intake along with baking soda can lead to this milk alkali syndrome?

I am new to Peat's way of eating and as a result increased my dairy over the past two weeks and also starting putting a little baking soda in my OJ. This past week I started getting low back pain, which is quite unusual for me--used to get it as PMS. As the week went along the pain seemed to get worse after taking the baking soda, so I googled kidney pain and baking soda and found this site: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000332.htm

Today I didn't have any dairy or baking soda and had extra aspirin for the pain as much as for anything else. No reduction yet, I'm certainly hoping to get back to eating dairy as I love it. I guess I'll just cut the baking soda.

Anyone have any insight or suggestions?

 

[Mittir]

Calcium's upper tolerable limit for an adult is 2500 mg.
RP recommends 1200-2000 mg. I remember reading case studies
of alkali syndrome and those intakes were very high, 6-7 grams of calcium.
I think baking soda is the possible source of problem.
I have noticed baking soda increases urination and that can deplete
minerals. Baking soda also changes pH of blood, which can be a factor
in kidney stone forming or causing kidney to expel existing stone.
Charlie asked RP about bag breathing and kidney stone and his response
was that co2 can relax the kidney enough to let stone pass.
Bag breathing and baking soda can have similar effect on pH

 

[Blossom]

Mittir-I'm getting the impression that some people should proceed slowly with increasing calcium especially while using sodium bicarbonate or bag breathing. Do you feel this is a sensible approach? Possibly gradually increasing any or all of the above might be wise.

 

[Mittir]

Mittir-I'm getting the impression that some people should proceed slowly with increasing calcium especially while using sodium bicarbonate or bag breathing. Do you feel this is a sensible approach? Possibly gradually increasing any or all of the above might be wise.

I think the problem is mostly related to sodium bicarbonate and bag breathing.
I do not know if people can form kidney stone in 2 weeks of normal intake
of milk and baking soda. I think some people will have symptoms with
excess baking soda and bag breathing even if they ingest low calcium.
Low calcium intake is known to increase kidney stone.
RP recommends 1-2 minutes of bag breathing 2-3 times a day to lower blood pressure.
Charlie did way more bag breathing than this and that was possibly the reason for
passing kidney stone. I felt back pain when i tried bag breathing for 4-5min.
The nih site in the original post recommends limiting
calcium intake below 1500 mg, which still satisfies RP's recommendation.

 

[j.]

I believe I had milk alkali syndrome from which I recovered in several months, and metabolic acidosis for a few days for not applying well some of Peat's principles to my situation

Had I used a pH strip to make sure the changes in my diet were ok for my kidney, probably none of those things would've happened.

Here's my Milk Alkali Syndrome testimonial. It sounds like you found out on time.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks guys! I thought it was 2-3 minutes 2-3 times per day but I was starting to wonder if people should start with less time or frequency to avoid complications. I greatly appreciate the clarification!

 

[Mittir]

Thanks guys! I thought it was 2-3 minutes 2-3 times per day but I was starting to wonder if people should start with less time or frequency to avoid complications. I greatly appreciate the clarification!

I posted before that it is 2-3 minutes , 2-3 times a day.
Later i realized it was 1-2 minutes 2-3 times a day. I think
uncomfortable feeling will depend on the size of the bag.
Here are few RP quotes on Bag Breathing ( bold mine)

CO2 (BAG BREATHING)
Just until it's uncomfortable, usually a minute or two, depending on the size of the bag. If you do it a few times in a day, you might notice that it makes your skin (e.g., under nails) pinker, by improving circulation.http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html

Breathing in a bag until the air is used up, which takes a minute or two, two or three times a day, will usually improve the body's CO2 balance in just a couple of days; for example, it usually normalizes the blood pressure viewtopic.php?p=51#p1122

In regards to bag breathing. At sea level, roughly how often would someone need to do it (2 mins duration) during a day to maintain a significant, noticeable elevation in CO2 levels? As frequent as once every half an hour, more or less? I realise this would vary somewhat from person to person but was just curious as to a rough estimate.

2 or 3 times a day will usually do it, you can check blood pressure to see its cumulative effect, but you should see a lingering increase of the pinkness of your nail beds
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1035&start=90#p24095

 

[Blossom]

Thanks for clarifying that Mittir! As always your informative post are packed with Peat goodness and greatly appreciated.

 

[Peata]

I was wondering if too much CO2 from soda (pop) can also cause back pain?

In the Fall, I found myself drinking 2 or 3, sometimes 4 cans per day of Coke. I developed some low back ache, which I associated with kidney pain I had as a kid when I had kidney problems (that I thankfully outgrew). Back then, my urologist forbid me to drink any soda, though I wasn't sure why.

I kicked the developing Coke habit after my stomach felt like it was stripped of its top layers, because of too much Coke and taking aspirin too. My stomach healed and I was glad the back pain went away too.

 

[Blossom]

I've been asking people all around work today about this and no one seems to know! I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but with all the people running around here thinking they are saving lives you'd think one person could give you a simple explanation about drinking soda and kidney pain. Just reasoning this out, I personally think it would probably be an issue of gradually increasing the amount of soda to avoid shocking your kidneys so to speak, just like bag breathing or even baking soda. I suppose if you didn't have plenty of calcium to balance the phosphorus in the soda that might be another issue that could come into play. That's what I'm thinking but would love to hear what others think about this issue.

 

[Peata]

Thanks for asking around, Blossom. Here's an excerpt from an article and link below.

We now have two new studies that support the findings of other research teams around the world, particularly as it relates to kidney health. The findings of these studies have been presented at this year’s ASN Kidney Week 2013 in Atlanta, GA.

The first study, led by Ryohei Yamamoto, MD, PhD of the Osaka University Graduate School of Medicine, found the consumption of two or more sugary soft drinks per day is linked with the condition known as proteinuria. Proteinuria is an increase in the excretion of protein in urine. When proteinuria occurs, it is widely regarded as a signifier of kidney dysfunction. The study was conducted using more than 12,000 university employees who all presented normal kidney function at the start of the study.

The full group was separated into groups based on their reported soft drink consumption. Over the 2.9 years of follow-up in the study, the group claiming to have consumed zero sodas per day saw 301, or 8.4 percent of the participants develop proteinuria. 272, or 8.9 percent of those in the group claiming one sugary soda a day developed the condition. But the group enjoying two or more beverages per day had 10.7 percent of their cohort developing the detrimental condition.

In another study, led by Agustin Gonzalez-Vicente of Case Western University, the link between even moderate fructose intake and the kidney’s sensitivity to angiotensin II was established. Angiotensin II is a protein specific to the regulation of salt balance. When this sensitivity in the kidney is increased, kidney cells increase the rate of salt reabsorption.

The Case Western Reserve researchers employed the use of laboratory research rats for their study to arrive at their findings.

The team believes this reabsorption increase, resulting from high-fructose corn syrup consumption, may well be associated with contributing to the epidemics of diabetes, obesity, kidney failure and hypertension.

Read more at http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/111 ... Lb4dqU0.99

 

[Peata]

But from what little I've read about proteinura, there aren't symptoms (other than seeing changes in urine testing). So maybe that wasn't the issue for me with too much cola in the Fall.

 

[Blossom]

I've been very disappointed in my coworkers opinions on this but really shouldn't be surprised I guess, it is the medical field after all. Mostly I'm getting things like too much salt or sugar! That's probably why medicine's track record is so atrocious. It seems you have been able to find a more sensible explanation Peata!

 

[j.]

Mostly I'm getting things like too much salt or sugar!

LOL. What the heck!

Not in all specialties, but in many, doctors have just awful personalities. They do have some skills, that's why they got into medical school, but part of the culture and training is to make them feel smart, and they end up feeling way smarter than they actually are. Their feelings of superiority and their credentials encourage them to behave in an authoritarian manner, and they end up mocking people who disagree with their beliefs, which by the way, were most often not rationally and carefully evaluated by themselves, but are just regarded as sacred dogma because it's the consensus of the profession.

 

[Mittir]

Has anyone heard that having a high calcium intake along with baking soda can lead to this milk alkali syndrome?

I am new to Peat's way of eating and as a result increased my dairy over the past two weeks and also starting putting a little baking soda in my OJ. This past week I started getting low back pain, which is quite unusual for me--used to get it as PMS. As the week went along the pain seemed to get worse after taking the baking soda, so I googled kidney pain and baking soda and found this site: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000332.htm

Today I didn't have any dairy or baking soda and had extra aspirin for the pain as much as for anything else. No reduction yet, I'm certainly hoping to get back to eating dairy as I love it. I guess I'll just cut the baking soda.

Anyone have any insight or suggestions?

Milk Alkali syndrome is diagnosed by measuring pH and serum calcium.
There are other possibilities that can cause lower back pain .
Hypothyroid people tend to have weak joint .
If someone is hypothyroid, excess liquid from milk and OJ can
lower thyroid function and cause back pain. Extra Salt helps with managing fluid.
Pectin in OJ can increase gut irritation, endotoxin,serotonin,
and estrogen, which can result in low thyroid function.
RP has also mentioned that endotoxin and gut irritation can
trigger joint pain. If milk is not digested properly
that can cause gut irritation too.
I think in adopting RP style eating main focus should be
avoiding any food that causes gut irritation.
Slowly increasing milk intake can help body adjust to it.
Cheese is free of lactose and is a perfect substitute for milk.

 

[janelle]

Thanks for all these responses.

I have found the previous posts on the subject as well, and found them all helpful. I have quit taking the baking soda and for two days stopped drinking milk. I'm back drinking milk, with no problems. After four days the pain is mostly gone. I did notice an increase in pain when I drank OJ or coke--and once when I ate dates. However, today I drank OJ and had two dates and seemed fine. So I guess the worst of it is over.

I've stayed clear of baking soda and have never tried bag breathing yet.

 

[j.]

I've stayed clear of baking soda and have never tried bag breathing yet.

These two, by the way, have opposite effects. Baking soda tends to increase pH. Bag breathing tends to decrease it. Milk alkali syndrome occurs when the things that increase pH overwhelm the ability of the kidneys to keep it in range.

After tons of bad experiences, I wouldn't use baking soda or calcium supplements without having pH strips to monitor urine and saliva for unusual changes. It's not foolproof, but people with milk alkali syndrome sometimes have an unusually high urine pH, so in some cases the pH strip could alert you.

 

[tara]

post 41070 These two, by the way, have opposite effects. Baking soda tends to increase pH. Bag breathing tends to decrease it. Milk alkali syndrome occurs when the things that increase pH overwhelm the ability of the kidneys to keep it in range.

This is my understanding of it too.

post 41070 After tons of bad experiences, I wouldn't use baking soda or calcium supplements without having pH strips to monitor urine and saliva for unusual changes. It's not foolproof, but people with milk alkali syndrome sometimes have an unusually high urine pH, so in some cases the pH strip could alert you.

Nice precautionary approach.