High 1,25 D

tallglass13

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A few months ago I ran some labs and my VD 25 OH was low 18. My 1,25 D was 47, on a scale of (32-72).
I began supplementing a topical D3 in the navel. I just re-ran my labs and my 25 OH came up to a 44, however my 1,25 D shot up to 100 (H). Ray Peat on the Kate Deering Vit D episode frequently re-assured that 1,25 D will go down when 25OH comes up. He mentioned how 25OH and 1,25 D is akin to the T3 and TSH for thyroid.
I find it interesting that the anti-VD people stated that if you supplement D3, it WILL increase 1,25 D. Which is supposed to be bad, and that is why they say do not supplement with D3. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
By the way, when my VD was 18, I did not feel any negatives. I found that just several years ago, the reference ranges for 25 OH were much lower, so "they" have manipulated the ranges just like cholesterol and prolactin.
 

Giraffe

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PTH increases synthesis of calcitriol, and PTH is influenzed by a number of factors.

The links might help to answer your questions:


 
OP
tallglass13

tallglass13

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PTH increases synthesis of calcitriol, and PTH is influenzed by a number of factors.

The links might help to answer your questions:


Thanks!
I did recently get a sunburn on my shins from the desert! I need to get PTH tested. Also, maybe my levels will normalize after a while.
 

tankasnowgod

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Also, how's your calcium intake in general?

This study in rats showed that both 1,25 OH D and PTH were high when rat's diet was low in calcium-


They used both K2 and something called elactonin to maintain Bone mineral density in the calcium defiecient mice on the low calcium diet, but both treatments also drove both PTH and 1,25 OH D higher.
 
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tallglass13

tallglass13

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Also, how's your calcium intake in general?

This study in rats showed that both 1,25 OH D and PTH were high when rat's diet was low in calcium-


They used both K2 and something called elactonin to maintain Bone mineral density in the calcium defiecient mice on the low calcium diet, but both treatments also drove both PTH and 1,25 OH D higher.
I don't think I could eat much more calcium, I get a lot of raw milk, eat tons of cheese.. if the answer is to eat more calcium, I would question the diet.. actually I am already questioning the diet..
 
OP
tallglass13

tallglass13

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The following indicate higher calcitriol (1,25 D):
  • Higher parathyroid hormones
  • Higher blood calcium and phosphorous
  • Higher albumin
  • Higher creatinine
  • Lower alkaline phosphatase
Thanks for that.. my albumin is 4.5, and according to Ray that is really good because albumin is an indicator of your health.. I do think I have high alkaline phosphatase which I need to lower.. I do need to test pth like I said that'll give me a better outlook on what's going on with me.. I may have some liver issue but I don't have any aches in my liver and my sbgh is high and so is my albumin...
 
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I emailed Ray, and I have not heard back from him.
Ray is mostly clueless about VIT D I'm pretty sure. Like it's obvious that 25D will convert into 1,25D in the kidneys or any other cell for that matter. Since almost all of the cells have VIT D receptors and most of the cells have 1-a-hydroxylase enzymes: "The recent recognition that most cells in the body have the vitamin D receptor and many possess 1-a-hydroxylase has provided new insights into nonclassical autocrine/paracrine actions of vitamin D."

I think what drives the higher production of 1,25D are pathogenic issues and activation of macrophages:
"Vitamin D–mediated hypercalcemia from activated macrophages within granuloma is a well-recognized complication of sarcoidosis and mycobacterial infections (1-4). A similar mechanism of hypercalcemia has been described in lymphoma (5). Hypercalcemia has also been reported in other granulomatous diseases including Wegener granulomatosis, eosinophilic granuloma, coccidioidomycosis, candidiasis, and histoplasmosis (6-12).
STUDY

"Hypercalcemia secondary to excessive production of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D from activated macrophages has been demonstrated in granulomatous diseases like sarcoidosis, mycobacterial infections, Wegener granulomatosis, and fungal infections (2-4,7-11,20)."
STUDY

I also think that If you have some tissue damage in your intestines, or inflammation, body will naturally produce higher PTH which then further increase 1,25D in order to absorb minerals from the intestine (mostly calcium and phosphorus) because the absorption is impaired.

What are your symptoms?
 
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tallglass13

tallglass13

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Ray is mostly clueless about VIT D I'm pretty sure. Like it's obvious that 25D will convert into 1,25D in the kidneys or any other cell for that matter. Since all the cells have VIT D receptors and all the cells have 1-a-hydroxylase enzymes: "The recent recognition that most cells in the body have the vitamin D receptor and many possess 1-a-hydroxylase has provided new insights into nonclassical autocrine/paracrine actions of vitamin D."

I think what drives the higher production of 1,25D are pathogenic issues and activation of macrophages:
"Vitamin D–mediated hypercalcemia from activated macrophages within granuloma is a well-recognized complication of sarcoidosis and mycobacterial infections (1-4). A similar mechanism of hypercalcemia has been described in lymphoma (5). Hypercalcemia has also been reported in other granulomatous diseases including Wegener granulomatosis, eosinophilic granuloma, coccidioidomycosis, candidiasis, and histoplasmosis (6-12).
STUDY

"Hypercalcemia secondary to excessive production of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D from activated macrophages has been demonstrated in granulomatous diseases like sarcoidosis, mycobacterial infections, Wegener granulomatosis, and fungal infections (2-4,7-11,20)."
STUDY

I also think that If you have some tissue damage in your intestines, or inflammation, body will naturally produce higher PTH which then further increase 1,25D in order to absorb minerals from the intestine (mostly calcium and phosphorus) because the absorption is impaired.

What are your symptoms?
Appreciate your response.
I may have some fungal or candida overgrowth, as I have a long time ankle rash. I also may have some serious liver inflammation from beer drinking. Otherwise, I feel pretty good, and am working 2 jobs as an RN. My mood is high while working, and I eat nutrient dense foods( raw milk, oyster extracts, fish, filet mignon, various cheeses, and good water).
I started small amounts of Sodium Thiosulfate for the candida and possible Ionized calcium from the high 1,25. I also increased some magnesium malate. Stopping my daily beer's. By the time I run labs for PTH and liver enzymes and VD panel, I may be better.
 
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I wouldn't bet on it...
Yeah that could be an overstatement. Let's just say what he preaches doesn't add up in a real world for most of the people. Therefore rendering it mostly useless. I think it comes down to supplemental D3. I've seen SO MANY cases of supplemental 25D increasing 1,25D significantly - therefore causing hypercalcemia and messing lot of people up [Me included].
He never mentioned that in any of his interviews or articles. He never said that 25D could increase 1,25D which could lead to hypercalcemia. In a matter of fact he stated that always opposite will happen and recommended mega dosing D3 to fix autoimmune issues. That does not work for MOST people - in fact it's messing them up.

If his theory doesn't practically work for a large group of people - making them worse - he should try to explore the mechanisms behind them. Instead he makes people focus on pointless things when they offer their experiences, never questioning his own assumptions regarding the issue. And mostly never responds to people's email when they offer their negative experiences regarding the VIT D issue. I really believe he think it's some kind of conspiracy and people are trying to exploit him by asking him about these negative side effects.

The VIT D thing is really complex. It's dependent on so many factors and most of the things we don't understand and forcefully pushing D in a certain direction by supplementing it will not always have desired results.

I'm more than positive that he will mentioned something about it in years to come because we will see lot's of people messing up their health using it.
 

tankasnowgod

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Yeah that could be an overstatement. Let's just say what he preaches doesn't add up in a real world for most of the people. Therefore rendering it mostly useless.
I know a lot of people that supplement vitamin D in the real world, in doses ranging from 2000-10,000 IU, and some occasionally going higher, and none have reported any negatives. So, I it seems to me like supplementing vitamin D in the ranges Peat suggests is either neutral or positive.
I think it comes down to supplemental D3. I've seen SO MANY cases of supplemental 25D increasing 1,25D significantly - therefore causing hypercalcemia and messing lot of people up [Me included].
Really? I understand your own case, but for others, how did you do this? Are you a doctor or a researcher? How are you seeing people's 1,25 OH D levels jumping up significantly? That's not something you can just eyeball.
He never mentioned that in any of his interviews or articles. He never said that 25D could increase 1,25D which could lead to hypercalcemia. In a matter of fact he stated that always opposite will happen and recommended mega dosing D3 to fix autoimmune issues. That does not work for MOST people - in fact it's messing them up.
Again, I haven't seen any of this in the real world, nor have I seen it in studies. Most studies when showing hypercalcemia show people taking extremely high doses, like either the 600,000 IU injection repeated monthly, or a dose of a million+ IU.

This study had three subjects taking 20,000-60,000 IU for a matter of years with no signs of hypercalcemia-
 

tankasnowgod

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I don't think I could eat much more calcium, I get a lot of raw milk, eat tons of cheese.. if the answer is to eat more calcium, I would question the diet.. actually I am already questioning the diet..
Well, it was just a thought. However, I am sure you could increase calcium intake, if you really tried....


If you don't think there's any reason your body could be craving more calcium (like broken or weak bones, or high phosphorus intake), it's possible it's just a temporary increase due to supplementation. Just because it was "out of range" when you tested doesn't mean that it's "bad," especially if you haven't had any symptoms of hypercalcemia. For example, this is the chart in the study of one of the subjects in the study I posted above-

Vitamin D Range.png


They only measured 1,25 OH D twice, and it was out of range in January 2014 (when he increased his dose), but the next time they measure 1,25 OH D 11 months later (after staying on the higher dose of Vitamin D), it was lower and in range, while 25 OHD stayed basically the same. Intact Parathyroid Levels also declined during the same time period.
 
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I know a lot of people that supplement vitamin D in the real world, in doses ranging from 2000-10,000 IU, and some occasionally going higher, and none have reported any negatives. So, I it seems to me like supplementing vitamin D in the ranges Peat suggests is either neutral or positive.
I know lots of people who didn't report any side effects as well, but I do know few personally who had side effects, and hundreds more on different forum groups. All of them shared blood work and you can see increase in 1,25D after D3 supplementation.
This study had three subjects taking 20,000-60,000 IU for a matter of years with no signs of hypercalcemia-
That study mostly confirmed what I was saying.
First of all they had 3 random (probably healthy subjects) who took much higher doses of D3. Good for them. No one seem to report any side effects. Probably because they are not immune compromised, then don't have VDR issues from all of the pathogens and they don't have problems in absorbing it since their body balanced out higher calcium (Probably at a cost longer term).

BUT:

They didn't measured 1,25D that often (Hmmm.. I wonder why), and when they did it was always elevated.

"Reference ranges for 1,25(OH)2 D are as follows : Males: 18-64 pg/mL. Females: 18-78 pg/mL."

case1111.png


case2.png


case 3.png

Again, I haven't seen any of this in the real world, nor have I seen it in studies.
Look closer.
 

tankasnowgod

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I know lots of people who didn't report any side effects as well, but I do know few personally who had side effects, and hundreds more on different forum groups. All of them shared blood work and you can see increase in 1,25D after D3 supplementation.
If they are on "forum groups," you don't "know" them.

How long did they wait after supplementation to test 1,25 OH D? There may indeed be an increase shortly after supplementation starts, only for it to normalize or go lower after a few months or so.
That study mostly confirmed what I was saying.
First of all they had 3 random (probably healthy subjects) who took much higher doses of D3. Good for them. No one seem to report any side effects.
This directly contradicts what you were saying, as it was the main thrust of your point. I thought your point was that supplementing Vitamin D led to bad side effects, not that it affects lab ranges.
Probably because they are not immune compromised, then don't have VDR issues from all of the pathogens and they don't have problems in absorbing it since their body balanced out higher calcium (Probably at a cost longer term).

BUT:

They didn't measured 1,25D that often (Hmmm.. I wonder why), and when they did it was always elevated.

"Reference ranges for 1,25(OH)2 D are as follows : Males: 18-64 pg/mL. Females: 18-78 pg/mL."

View attachment 38696

View attachment 38697

View attachment 38698

Look closer.

Except, if we use the range that the OP gave (which was 32-72), then both are "in range," albeit near the top. And considering ranges are based on estimates from the population, and not handed down as the word of god, and can even vary from lab to lab, there can certainly be debates about what they should be, or if they are even useful at all. Considering that 1,25 OH D isn't a popular test, the range shouldn't be thought of as hard and fast.

More importantly, I don't know how you overlooked the almost 40 point drop when subject 1 went from 40,000 IU to 50,000. With the limited information here (again, because it's not a very popular test), it does seem to fit the idea 1,25 OH D will rise when supplementation starts, and falls over time.
 
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it does seem to fit the idea 1,25 OH D will rise when supplementation starts, and falls over time.
This study you shared failed to point that out. It could have rise up again as far as I'm concerned.
If you have lot's of pathogens or inflammation, macrophages will directly convert it to 1,25D. Since they were probably healthy they didn't have much problems.
"..hypercalcemia occurs as a result of the activity of ectopic 25(OH)D-1-hydroxylase (CYP27B1) expressed in macrophages or tumor cells and the formation of excessive amounts of 1,25(OH)2D."

"Toll-like receptor activation of human macrophages up-regulates expression of the vitamin D receptor and the 25(OH)D3-1α-hydroxylase genes (382), the latter increasing 1,25(OH)2D3 synthesis.."
Except, if we use the range that the OP gave (which was 32-72), then both are "in range," albeit near the top.
Sure, we can bend it as much as you want. It's still on the high end. As far as I'm concerned the study failed to measure and report 1,25D during the whole course of study and establish 1,25D baseline status. And again, as far as I'm concerned maybe they didn't want to report it because it was too high.
If they are on "forum groups," you don't "know" them.
Read my statement again: "..but I do know few personally who had side effects, and hundreds more on different forum groups." So I know people PERSONALLY and GENERALLY - on forum groups. Unless you also think VIT D side effects are conspiracy and everyone is trying to make you scare so that you stop supplementing it.

Here is a study where young Crohn's sufferers had increase in 1,25D and PTH after treatment with corticosteroids and D3 supplementation.
high 1,25d in crohn's.png
 
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tallglass13

tallglass13

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I just dont want to be causing damage that I do not know about. What are the opinions on continuing D3 supplement, and mind you, I have been taking topical in the navel,
I or anyone else needs to test Ionized calcium and PTH to check for damage. Serum Calcium may not tell us much.
 
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