Hi! New to this forum

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Hi my name is Xenia, I've been peating for about 5 months now and so far it's helped me so much. I still have a ton of issues to work though and that's why I'm here, to gain more knowledge and hopefully conquer these lingering health issues.
I have hashimotos and I had been through hell and back, like most of you :):

I've been on t3 only meds for about a year now after having an issue with rt3. While they have helped so much, I still struggle with adrenaline and lately I've been having to increase the meds and they are beginning to have little effect anymore. Certain instances have caused to raise, like hay fever allergies, and now I seemed to have upset my system trying progest e. I knew I had issues with estrogen dominance and so I started progest e according to the directions at long natural health. 3 drops, 5x per day for 10 days until menstruation. Everything was going great until I stopped and then the crap hit the fan big time. Mood swings, fatigue and fibromyalgia pain that I only experience when very hypo. Cytomel suddenly started giving me major adrenaline that I thought I had corrected. I'm guessing this is estrogen?? I decided to start dosing progest e again 2 drops 3x day (continuously, no cycling) and feeling slightly better but still hypothyroid at 86mcgs a day of t3. I have a strong feeling this is all estrogen related but not sure where to go next with all of this. Thanks :):
 

aguilaroja

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Warriorprincess said:
I still have...issues to work though...
I have hashimotos...
I've been on t3 only meds for about a year now after having an issue with rt3....I started progest e according to the directions at long natural health. 3 drops, 5x per day for 10 days until menstruation. Everything was going great until I stopped and then the crap hit the fan big time. Mood swings, fatigue and fibromyalgia pain...Cytomel suddenly started giving me major adrenaline ... I decided to start dosing progest e again 2 drops 3x day (continuously, no cycling) and feeling slightly better but still hypothyroid at 86mcgs a day of t3....

Welcome to the forum.

I am only an amateur reader expressing my views for discussion, based on experiences with self and friends, and study of Dr. Peat's work.

It's often easier to give feedback with additional information.

A few items to begin with:

First, for the T3, are you using Cytomel/Cynomel or one of the compounded "long acting" T3 products? If using Cytomel/Cynomel, how are you dividing up the doses during the day? If it is okay to ask, what is your age or age range? When was the Hashimoto's issue determined? How long were symptoms going before that?

Many people concerned about rT3 do so from concerns about the Denis Wilson/Wilson's syndrome viewpoint and get products from compounding pharmacies.

Second, it would be help to specify what symptoms/experiences you had that are being designated as "adrenaline" or "estrogen" issues. It may be clearer to describe things rather than classify them.

For instance, Progest-E can in some situations rapidly boost thyroid function, resulting in a racy feeling, rapid heartbeat, or something like a super-effective caffeine effect. To some people this seems like a high adrenaline state, but is actually different, and approached differently.

(I am not saying that was the case here, only asking for additional information. Also, I have no intention to discourage the use of Progest-E, which is a great tool. I only want to help folks understand its use in context.)

Third, was it a single menstrual cycle that the "long's natural" directions dosing was used? How long has the continuous dosing been used now?

Fourth, how are you tracking thyroid function, if you track things? Do you measure resting pulse/temperature/symptom inventory from time to time?

WADR, my views are likely different from some of the Wilson's syndrome and STTM approaches that are advocated on other forums. And you may have started diet and supportive measures discussed in this forum, which fine tuning may also boost. Sometimes the "lifestyle/diet" measures are more primary than the bio-identical hormone amounts.
 
OP
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Thanks for your reply!
I'm 33yrs old, I was officially diagnosed hypothyroid after the birth of my first child at 25, but I've had issues long before that. In my late teens/early twenties I also suffered from fatigue, hypoglycemia, bouts of depression and digestive issues and being on the BC pill for about 5 yrs made me practically suicidal every month.
Back to my diagnosis, I was put on synthroid and after about a year I was already becoming dissatisfied with the treatment. My negligent dr never tested anything but TSH ever, and I didn't realize I had hashi's until after already being on Sythroid for 6 yrs! I tried controlling it all by being "healthy": flax seed, greens, legumes, chicken, and long distance running. Awesome right?? :roll:

When I became pregnant with my second child I developed a chronic yeast infection that lasted for about 3 years. I decided to try NDT with the help of a naturopath since my dr wouldn't prescribe it, the naturopath didn't know what she was doing and I ended up quite sick with the typical issues that many have when trying NDT. I developed disautonomia symptoms that I've been trying to correct since that time, about 2 years ago. I went back on synthroid hoping it would just all go away, and that's when I developed an rt3 issue. I became very hypo again with weight gain, fibromyalgia type pain, ice pick headaches, pulsatile tinnitus, etc... That's when I decided to do Paul Robinson's rt3 protocol. It went well, right up until I cleared the rt3, and then I couldn't stay steady on it anymore. I would get the shakes frequently and anxiety attacks. In Jan I started peating, when I cut out starches it was amazing how much better i felt. I got progressively better and better symptomwise although I still couldn't achieve 98.6 steady. I read about you need good progesterone levels for thyroid to work correctly, but you also need good thyroid levels to clear excess estrogen.
In April I had a bout of hayfever that really did me in. I had to raise my cytomel dose and that improved for a short time. I decided to try Progest E after reading that excess estrogen could block thyroid hormone. I have only done Progest E for about a month now, so only that one period. I'm working hard on diet, and I recently changed my cytomel dosing from 4x day to about every 2.5 hours to be more in line with Peats recomendations. It has helped with the adrenaline surges but I'm just dragging along for about a week now. I take a total of 86.5mcg t3 daily. I've been back on the Progest E for about a week and things have improved since being back on it, no more pain and shakiness. Progest E also really warms me up.

After reading Ray's articles and given my past history I just know I have a big estrogen dominant stamp on my forehead.

I just feel like I can correlate these bad feelings directly with stopping the progesterone at my period. Before that things were steady for a few months, going well, then bam all of a sudden I'm a mess, lol...
Looking around this board I have noticed that there can be a rebound effect as estrogen is displaced out of the tissues, is that correct?
 

Mittir

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Feb 20, 2013
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Welcome to the forum

Hashimoto

RP has a unique view on Hashimoto.
He thinks it is a new name for old diagnosis of " Colloid Goiter".
He mentioned that antibodies used to diagnose Hashimoto
are part of a clean up system due to inflamed thyroid glands.
He also cites a study that showed TSH suppression for 6 months
cleared antibodies. My understanding is that if it were true
autoimmune disease, suppressed TSH should not have stopped
immune system's attack on thyroid gland. This disease is
5-7 times higher in female and estrogen is the root cause for that.
Low thyroid function increases estrogen. High estrogen compared
to progesterone causes hypothyroidism, particularly this Colloid
goiter, where estrogen inhibit secretion of thyroid hormone from the
gland and conversion of thyroid hormone in the liver. This causes
inflammation of thyroid glands and increases storage of hormone
in the gland. This is why RP recommends against using progesterone
when the gland is enlarged. Progesterone helps to release stored
thyroid hormone by neutralizing estrogen and this can often cause
a temporary phase of "Hyperthyrodism". He recommends large serving
of liver and raw cabbage juice to slow down the thyroid .
Daily raw carrot salad or cooked bamboo shoots is very helpful
in lowering estrogen. A healthy liver is very important to detoxify
all the estrogen passing through it. A diet low in starch and
fermentable soluble fiber lowers the burden on liver.
RP thinks one of the the reason female has higher rate of hypothyroidism
is due to excess burden of estrogen on the liver.
80 grams of quality protein ,B vitamins , selenium and
steady blood sugar are essential for healthy liver.

I think it is very damaging to spirit when a doctor hands you a
diagnosis that your own body is attacking a part of your body and
they can not tell you why it happens and what is the cure for it.
I have not seen any other health source giving an alternative and scientific
explanation for this disease other than Ray Peat. He also mentioned
a study that showed higher antibodies were associated with
quicker recovery in some other "autoimmune disease".
When it is comes to life altering useful information Ray Peat is the man.
Here is a list of all the Ray Peat interviews and there is an interview on Hashimoto.
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/0 ... nterviews/
Herb Doctors: Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Temperature, Pulse Rate (2013)

T3 and T4 Dosing

RP does not recommend T3 only in large doses. He recommends some
T4 before bed to keep TSH down and let body make T3 from T4
as one can not take T3 in sleep. He used to take large dose of T3
and his heart stopped every few seconds when he missed a dose.
RP has mentioned that body make on average 4 mcg
T3 per hour and inactivate excess T3. That is why he thinks
taking single large doses of T3 is not useful. High coritsol
increases reverse T3 and low sugar diet increase coritsol.
Here is a collection of RP quote
on thyroid dosing. http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges#thyroid_hormone
 

aguilaroja

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Joined
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Messages
850
Mittir said:
RP has a unique view on Hashimoto....a new name for old diagnosis of " Colloid Goiter"....

Kudos to Mittir, for thorough and wise summaries as always.

One great point among the other great points is the interesting topic of how it is the immune systems "attacks" the thyroid in Hashimoto's thyroid issues, when the thyroid is itself so important to the immune response. The idea of autoimmunity to immune function is kind of circular and ironic. For the present, I will defer general discussions. Excuse me if there have been other forum discussions of general Hashimoto's process that I have not tracked yet. As Mittir points out, Dr. Peat gives a coherent and useful explanation that functionally surpasses other sources.

As Mittir mentions, in some situations, the recovery passes through an improved thyroid phases where activity is high, and is in a way "hyperthyroid". I have known two women with Hashimoto's phenomena that went through this while beginning to use Progest-E. Both situations settled down with reducing the thyroid amount in the short term and using a bit of cruciferous vegetable juice.

(In both case, the women were in trendy places where they could get "green juice" with cabbage family vegetables, though not cabbage. I think the "greens" were mainly kale with some chard in one combo, and kale with maybe spinach in another.) Anyway, the (raw) cabbage and green juices are potent thyroid function inhibitors. If things are non-urgent, it may be wisest to sip things slowly at intervals rather than gulping down many glasses.

It's a bit tricky to describe the transient hyperthyroid state in contrast to a high adrenaline state where the heartbeat can also be rapid. In the high adrenaline state, the hands and feet getting cold and light-headedness are more common.
 

aguilaroja

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Messages
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Warriorprincess said:
I was officially diagnosed hypothyroid after the birth of my first child at 25, but I've had issues long before that. In my late teens/early twenties I also suffered from fatigue, hypoglycemia, bouts of depression and digestive issues and being on the BC pill ... made me practically suicidal every month.

...I was put on synthroid....I became very hypo again with weight gain, fibromyalgia type pain, ice pick headaches, pulsatile tinnitus, etc... That's when I decided to do Paul Robinson's rt3 protocol. It went well, right up until I cleared the rt3, and then I couldn't stay steady on it anymore. I would get the shakes frequently and anxiety attacks. In Jan I started peating, when I cut out starches it was amazing how much better i felt. I got progressively better and better symptomwise although I still couldn't achieve 98.6 steady. I read about you need good progesterone levels for thyroid to work correctly, but you also need good thyroid levels to clear excess estrogen.
In April I had a bout of hayfever that really did me in. I had to raise my cytomel dose and that improved for a short time.

Xenia,

Thanks for the added context. It's great that you have navigated different paths to get so much improvement after great difficulty and while raising young children. It's also excellent that you have already been taking T3 at frequent intervals in small amounts.

My experience is similar to Dr. Peat's and Mittir's view, that long term, usually, it's helpful to take some T4 along with T3, even in cases of the clearest reverse T3 elevations that respond to T3. At the same time, it's understandable that folks who finally got major relief with T3 only wanted to continue with only T3/Cytomel.

In young adult females starting progesterone, the challenge can be getting through the first 2 or 3 cycles using Progest-E in timing with the cycles. I know people with differing strategies who have worked through it either by taking lower dose Progest-E in the first part of the cycle, or re-starting Progest-E one or a few days earlier than mid-cycle. Among this small sample I observed, some continued to cycle near usual schedules eve n with early Progest-E. The others, who had delayed cycles were able to re-establish a regular schedule, once their wellness stabilized enough to go back to timing progest-E with the second half of the cycle.

I second Mittir's recommendation of raw carrot salad or cooked bamboo shoot for gut ecology, liver function, and estrogen clearance. If the fibromyalgia-type symptoms have crampy, "restless", raw or stiff muscle pain, you might emphasize assuring good mineral intake, such as salt, magnesium, calcium, and potassium. It's important to include a little cholesterol food source, whether from egg, dairy or animal products, to provide nourishment for building hormones.

If, in the near term, pollen allergies remain a trigger, using antihistamines or the cromolyn nasal spray seem reasonable while metabolic support is tuned up, unless previous experience keeps you from these measures.
 
OP
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Thanks so much for both of your replies. Yes it can be hard with the kids since I sometimes feel like I am not able to meet all their needs, which frustrates me, but these are the cards I've been dealt. I suppose all of us here are fighting a lot of different issues since being sick sucks, lol... The positive that I take from all of this is that I've learned a lot, its empowering to take back your own health and I am also better equipped to protect my children from having the issues I do. :D

Things are slowly getting back to where they were, I'm quite sure I was having a reaction to some displaced estrogen. Thanks for the information on Ray's view on Hashimotos, I've read some of that before and its really eye opening and makes so much sense really. I for one have never experienced any type of hyper feeling ever, I just have progressively needed more and more thyroid replacement. My antibodies were in the thousands during my rt3 issue, but on t3 they were the lowest they have ever been, a little over 150 and hopefully they've come down even more. I agree, I really do need to add some t4 in there, since I'm sure it does contribute to some nighttime stress during the few hours where I'm not taking t3. I've just been hesitant just from past experience, but I have a feeling it would go better this time.

The adrenaline I experience seems similar to a hypogylcemia attack that doesn't get better, and I've thought about possible hyperthyroidism but when I take my temperature it's always low, in the 97's.

But I've begun feeling better again over the weekend, day by day. Adding the progest e back in has helped a lot, and I've decided to try some aspirin for estrogen clearance. Just 1 325 tablet in water after eating to see if that helps. I love the carrot salad, but I have a hard time remembering to take it between meals, but I know I need to be more on top of that.

Allergies are quite bad this year and pollen is very high where I am right now, so I'll just keep on with the antihistamines ;)
 

aguilaroja

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
850
Warriorprincess said:
... its empowering to take back your own health and I am also better equipped to protect my children from having the issues I do. :D

....My antibodies were in the thousands during my rt3 issue, but on t3 they were the lowest they have ever been, a little over 150 and hopefully they've come down even more. I agree, I really do need to add some t4 in there, since I'm sure it does contribute to some nighttime stress during the few hours where I'm not taking t3. I've just been hesitant just from past experience, but I have a feeling it would go better this time.

The adrenaline I experience seems similar to a hypogylcemia attack that doesn't get better, and I've thought about possible hyperthyroidism but when I take my temperature it's always low, in the 97's.
...I've decided to try some aspirin for estrogen clearance. Just 1 325 tablet in water after eating...

Allergies are quite bad this year and pollen is very high ...

Thanks for the update.

I was going to mention aspirin before, but thought it might be too much information. It's a very good thought. It's probably best to take a bit of vitamin K additionally (whether through food or good quality supplementing), if aspirin is going to be used for a while.

If you go for adding T4 eventually, even a very small amount (say, 25 micrograms, or 50 micrograms, or 12 micrograms, etc.) total per day can have a notable stabilizing difference, before fine tuning the T4/T3 ratios. I have known enough people with very high antibodies and long suffering to appreciate the reluctance in adding T4, when T3 has relieved formerly awful circumstances.

For the high adrenaline episodes, you might see if sipping something salty or sugary or both brings relief. Orange juice with a pinch of baking soda is one tonic that helps many people. Good quality soda/cola, fruit/fruit juice, or salty broths are all relieving.

If you are indoors much of the time and have say over the set-up of the rooms, an inexpensive 20 inch box fan (U.S. measures) with a hardware store type air/furnace filter (also 20 inch square) taped to it will filter a lot of pollen effectively, quickly and cheaply, compared to the fancy air purifiers.
 
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