Hey My Dudes [PUFA, Ketosis, Insulin Resistance]

Peater Piper

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Mar 18, 2016
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ANY fat will make you temporarily insulin resistant due to the Randle cycle. However, ONLY the PUFA will give you diabetes and chronic insulin resistance due to its interference with the insulin "receptor" expression and binding profile, induction of inflammation (NF-kB, TNFa, prostaglandins, leukotrienes, etc) and damaging of the beta cells of the pancreas. Saturated fat has none of these effects.
Are you sure saturated fats are entirely safe for the beta cells? It sounds like some monounsaturated fat is protective, and saturated fat + monounsaturated fat often accompany each other in animal products, but it makes me wonder about a diet where dietary fat primarily comes from dairy and coconut oil.

Saturated fatty acids synergize with elevated glucose to cause pancreatic beta-cell death. - PubMed - NCBI
"We have proposed the "glucolipotoxicity" hypothesis in which elevated free fatty acids (FFAs) together with hyperglycemia are synergistic in causing islet beta-cell damage because high glucose inhibits fat oxidation and consequently lipid detoxification. The effects of 1-2 d culture of both rat INS 832/13 cells and human islet beta-cells were investigated in medium containing glucose (5, 11, 20 mM) in the presence or absence of various FFAs. A marked synergistic effect of elevated concentrations of glucose and saturated FFA (palmitate and stearate) on inducing beta-cell death by apoptosis was found in both INS 832/13 and human islet beta-cells. In comparison, linoleate (polyunsaturated) synergized only modestly with high glucose, whereas oleate (monounsaturated) was not toxic."

Distinct effects of saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids on beta-cell turnover and function. - PubMed - NCBI
"Exposure of islets to saturated fatty acid (0.5 mmol/l palmitic acid) in medium containing 5.5, 11.1, or 33.3 mmol/l glucose for 4 days resulted in a five- to ninefold increase of beta-cell DNA fragmentation. In contrast, monounsaturated palmitoleic acid alone (0.5 mmol/l) or in combination with palmitic acid (0.25 or 0.5 mmol/l each) did not affect DNA fragmentation. Increasing concentrations of glucose promoted beta-cell proliferation that was dramatically reduced by palmitic acid."

"These results suggest that the lipotoxic effect of the saturated palmitic acid involves an increased apoptosis rate coupled with reduced proliferation capacity of beta-cells and impaired insulin secretion. The deleterious effect of palmitate on beta-cell turnover is mediated via formation of ceramide and activation of the apoptotic mitochondrial pathway. In contrast, the monounsaturated palmitoleic acid does not affect beta-cell apoptosis, yet it promotes beta-cell proliferation at low glucose concentrations, counteracting the negative effects of palmitic acid as well as improving beta-cell function."

BMC Immunology
"Rat pancreatic islets or insulinoma cells (RIN) were co-cultivated with concanavalin A (ConA)-stimulated rat lymph node cells (LNC), or they were treated with cell-free supernatants (Sn) obtained from ConA-stimulated spleen cells or from activated CD3+ cells, in the absence or presence of palmitic acid (PA). ConA-stimulated LNC or Sn and PA cooperated in inducing caspase-3-dependent RIN cell apoptosis. The observed effect of PA and Sn on RIN cell viability was mediated by p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK)-signaling and was achieved through auto-destructive nitric oxide (NO) production. The cooperative effect of Sn was mimicked with the combination of interleukin-1β, interleukin-2, interleukin-6, interleukin-17, interferon-γ and tumor necrosis factor-α."

"These results imply that stimulated T cells produce cytokines that cooperate with saturated free fatty acids in beta cell destruction during diabetes pathogenesis."
 

tara

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One of the other differences between primarily fatty foods and carby ones, is that if you get your carbs from fruit and veges, you can get useful amounts of some important minerals - eg Mg, K - along with them, that you don't get so much of from butter and coconut oil.
 

haidut

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@jayegray and @BigYellowLemon

I do not believe in "ideal fuel" ..... Eat what doesn't cause you stress, and let the macronutrients fall where they may.

The key though, is to have an effective measure for "foods that cause you stress".

----

@haidut What Peter @ Hyperlipid is talking about when he says "PUFA are insulin sensitising", is specifically the result of beta oxidation of already present fatty acids, and the resultant NADH:FADH2 ratios produced by various fatty acids.

This explanation assumes that fatty acids have full access to Mitochondrial Electron Chain Transport (ECT), and the result is that insulin is still permitted to function despite an acute burst of PUFA. Insulin would function to a much lesser degree if SFA were put through ECT.

----

Next, the actual referenced study -- Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans | Diabetes

Again, this is an overfeeding study, and it is both a relative measure, as well as an acute measure.
  • "Relative" in the sense that it a comparison between SFA in caloric excess and PUFA in caloric excess. It is not even a comparison between SFA and PUFA in caloric sufficient diets. Again, the caloric excess component is important.

    And of of other comparisons? eg: PUFA vs SFA with varying fat macronutrient percentages in the context of overfeeding. Different caloric levels of overfeeding (this study was 750kcal a day, but who actually eats "only 750kcal more" when they go all out with food .....).

  • "Acute" in the sense that all this measures is how each fat causes changes in fat storage patterns in the context of a large and transient caloric bolus. SFA fat empirically caused more fat gain in this study, and quite a fair bit more, in the "wrong" places. See Figure 2 from the study:

    View attachment 3469 (click to enlarge)

    You can already start to see some changes in gene expression toward what I would call "unfavourable" (see Table 5), but it seems like during the short term nature of the study, it doesn't seem to affect the outcome much.

-----

The case for chronic PUFA exposure and resulting negative systemic effects has already been made on this forum many times. These harms are very significant, and it is still my opinion that PUFA consumption be heavily limited.

That is completely compatible with partitioning of acute fat gain during PUFA overfeeding, lesser towards visceral and liver stores, when compared with SFA overfeeding.

....

Well, all I know is that EFA deficiency seems to spur a number of very beneficial changes in organisms - from metabolism to steroid synthesis to resistance to disease.
A Must-read PUFA Primer (The Haidut Edition)

I know it does not directly address insulin sensitivity but if the EFA deficient animals were insulin resistant it would have tanked their DHEA and T, which quite the opposite of what was observed.
A Must-read PUFA Primer (The Haidut Edition)

But if you want data specifically on insulin sensitivity and cortisol here is some:
High PUFA diet is pro-aging, diabetogenic, and increases corisol
High PUFA diet effectively the same as diabetes, aging and cancer
Pufa Stimulates Cortisol Production Even In The Absense Of Acth
So, @BigYellowLemon and @tyw , care to comment?
 

tyw

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Well, all I know is that EFA deficiency seems to spur a number of very beneficial changes in organisms - from metabolism to steroid synthesis to resistance to disease.
A Must-read PUFA Primer (The Haidut Edition)

I know it does not directly address insulin sensitivity but if the EFA deficient animals were insulin resistant it would have tanked their DHEA and T, which quite the opposite of what was observed.
A Must-read PUFA Primer (The Haidut Edition)

But if you want data specifically on insulin sensitivity and cortisol here is some:
High PUFA diet is pro-aging, diabetogenic, and increases corisol
High PUFA diet effectively the same as diabetes, aging and cancer
Pufa Stimulates Cortisol Production Even In The Absense Of Acth
So, @BigYellowLemon and @tyw , care to comment?

You are referring to the chronic effects of PUFA accumulation in the body. We fully agree on all of these aspects ;)

What I am talking about is the acute effect of metabolism of PUFA (as opposed to their accumulation), and only specifically in the tissues that metabolise them.

If we assume pure metabolism of PUFA, then yes, full oxidation of PUFAs to NADH and FADH2, and the net result of pushing them through mitochondrial ECT, will seek to make the cell that is metabolising that PUFA more sensitive to insulin -- which really means "more ready to take up energetic substrate of any form".

Again, only the cell that is metabolising the PUFA is affected, and only for as long as they are metabolising PUFAs (and keeping delta psi high).

Realistically, chronic consumption of PUFA in eucaloric or caloric excess diets will lead to PUFA accumulation. This then leads to the systemic effects which you have discussed.

Sidenote: whether or not significant PUFA consumption, say 20g or more a day, will lead to net PUFA accumulation in a significantly (>15%) calorie-restricted diet, is unknown. I do not see this as a practical scenario in any case.

Sidenote: whether or not acute consumption of PUFA is "better" when it is followed by net caloric deficit is unknown. eg: Will eating less the day after consuming a large amount of PUFAs lead to the quick elimination of that PUFA? Will eating PUFA while having a net caloric deficit for the day lead to less accumulation of PUFA?

That all depends on the relative ease of mobilising and using PUFA, which Peat claims are preferentially mobilised and used (relative to MUFA and SFA).

In any case, the key is to try and reduce tissue PUFA mobilisation.​


In the case of the original study, which is comparatively acute in it's timeframe, it may be the case whereby the acute insulin sensitising effects of PUFA lead to lesser overall fat accumulation.

Of course, since this was a study of caloric excess, fat was still accumulated in tissues. The participants on the high PUFA diet would therefore accumulate PUFA.

The gene expression changes in this high PUFA group are likely indicative that this PUFA accumulation was starting to have the chronically-associated negative effects that you've mentioned.

In sum, it is still not a good idea to overeat PUFAs, but the lesser fat gain with PUFA consumption may be explained by the aforementioned mitochondrial mechanics.

....
 
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BigYellowLemon
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Messages
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Well, all I know is that EFA deficiency seems to spur a number of very beneficial changes in organisms - from metabolism to steroid synthesis to resistance to disease.
A Must-read PUFA Primer (The Haidut Edition)

I know it does not directly address insulin sensitivity but if the EFA deficient animals were insulin resistant it would have tanked their DHEA and T, which quite the opposite of what was observed.
A Must-read PUFA Primer (The Haidut Edition)
So, @BigYellowLemon and @tyw , care to comment?


My thought's on all of this have been changing drastically from day to day.

Yesterday, I went low-fat. I drank orange juice, skim milk, sweet potatoes, summer-salad, and sugary coffee.. I felt very weak and unhealthy yesterday. I also had horrible digestive health, lot's of gut rumbling and gas. It was horrible. Probably because of the skim-milk and sweet potato's.

Orange juice, and fructose in general, seems to really hurt my system. I don't like how it act's like sugar but isn't controlled by insulin as much. It's too chaotic. The amount in white-sugar is enough for me. Generally when I eat fruits, it honestly feel's very draining on my system.

HFLC isn't a fix, either. Too much fat, like today, gives me slight nausea and destroys my appetite. I get a sense of strength that I don't get on HCLF, but the strength is muddled with heaviness, so it's not as useful.

I have realized that the way I've been eating, trying to maximize my gain, eat the perfect diet, has been a failure, and that I've wasted a lot of time and energy pursuing that goal. It doesn't work and has been a huge net-negative on my life.

I was thinking about what Yew said, about eating the least stressful foods, letting the macronutrients fall where they may. I also read Ray's quote about eating for temperature and pulse, not any particular food.

So tonight, I've decided to just eat commercial wheat bread, with a generous serving of butter and white sugar, and I feel great.

I remember after tripping for the first time, I ate ice-cream every-day all-day, for a week-straight, and I felt an improvement of my health.

It's so damn individualized. I'm realizing most of my beliefs on nutrition don't hold when compared to reality. Dogma.

When I think of foods that I truly crave, that are nourishing and wholesome, and taste delicious, I think of ice-cream, milshakes, whole-milk, cookies/cookie-dough, ect.

I've decided I'm just going to eat what I crave, eat a lot, drink coffee, use aspirin, and get on with my life. Avoiding PUFA's and reducing stress are my main concerns. I'll let you guys know how this goes for me.

----

Okay, now I will get to your points.

I think we should differentiate between insulin sensitivity and what that actually means.

Insulin sensitive just means that a certain cell requires low amounts of insulin to perform the same function as another cell who is more insulin resistant.

Insulin sensitivity isn't always a good thing.

I think what we need to really go for is intelligent insulin handling, or "insulin accuracy", rather than insulin sensitivity.

When people talk about insulin sensitivity, I think they are generally actually talking about insulin accuracy.

With PUFA, it tells the cell to keep consuming energy, it creates little to no insulin resistance, which can be bad for a cell, as the cell will keep up-taking glucose until it dies or is injured.

Now, if you are burning a 50/50 mix of glucose and palmitic acid, you won't be as insulin sensitive as a cell burning 50/50 glucose and linoleic acid.

But, the 50/50 glucose/palmitic burning mitochondria will have far greater insulin accuracy/control, and will undoubtedly be a far healthier cell. The ETC will produce the exact right amount of super-oxide, which will trigger the exact right amount of needed insulin resistance, which will keep the exact right amount of glucose out, which will maximize the ETC's efficiency.

In a cell burning 50/50 glucose/linoleic acid, insulin will not be blocked, and the cell will over-consume, and get a belly-ache (die/injury).

So, we want insulin accuracy, not insulin sensitivity.

This makes sense of why people seem to, or at least used to be able to handle varying ratios of carbs/SFA's. People have been eating carbs and SFA's together for a long long time and they seem to have been pretty healthy.

This makes sense. In the past, people could eat bread and butter, and their cells could intelligently control the amount of glucose uptake, and the cells could thrive. People seemed to eat a lot of different things in the past, and they generally stayed pretty healthy (huge assumption). I think this is because they didn't eat a lot of PUFA.

Nowadays, people eat shitloads of PUFA, and their cells can't accurately control insulin anymore. Boo-boo.

Of course, this is extremely oversimplified.

---

I think mixing carbs and SFA's could be a very good thing.

Carbs have a ton of benefits, and SFA's seem to "stoke the metabolic fire", as westside once said (palmitic acid spurs on pyruvate dehydrogenase, as haidut has also said).

---

I'm not saying that the PUFA depleted animals were insulin resistant, nor am I saying that PUFA is good because it facilitates insulin's activity.

The PUFA depleted animals were very healthy, but I think this is due to their exceptional insulin accuracy, rather than insulin sensitivity (though I do think they were insulin sensitive as well).

---

I do however think that SFA's together with carbs could cause weight gain.

But I want to be clear, weight gain does not equal metabolic dysfunction.

I think SFA's and carbs have a lot of benefits, and I'll take a little weight gain to get those benefits. I need to gain weight so it's okay haha.
 
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BigYellowLemon
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Messages
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My thought's on all of this have been changing drastically from day to day.

Yesterday, I went low-fat. I drank orange juice, skim milk, sweet potatoes, summer-salad, and sugary coffee.. I felt very weak and unhealthy yesterday. I also had horrible digestive health, lot's of gut rumbling and gas. It was horrible. Probably because of the skim-milk and sweet potato's.

Orange juice, and fructose in general, seems to really hurt my system. I don't like how it act's like sugar but isn't controlled by insulin as much. It's too chaotic. The amount in white-sugar is enough for me. Generally when I eat fruits, it honestly feel's very draining on my system.

HFLC isn't a fix, either. Too much fat, like today, gives me slight nausea and destroys my appetite. I get a sense of strength that I don't get on HCLF, but the strength is muddled with heaviness, so it's not as useful.

I have realized that the way I've been eating, trying to maximize my gain, eat the perfect diet, has been a failure, and that I've wasted a lot of time and energy pursuing that goal. It doesn't work and has been a huge net-negative on my life.

I was thinking about what Yew said, about eating the least stressful foods, letting the macronutrients fall where they may. I also read Ray's quote about eating for temperature and pulse, not any particular food.

So tonight, I've decided to just eat commercial wheat bread, with a generous serving of butter and white sugar, and I feel great.

I remember after tripping for the first time, I ate ice-cream every-day all-day, for a week-straight, and I felt an improvement of my health.

It's so damn individualized. I'm realizing most of my beliefs on nutrition don't hold when compared to reality. Dogma.

When I think of foods that I truly crave, that are nourishing and wholesome, and taste delicious, I think of ice-cream, milshakes, whole-milk, cookies/cookie-dough, ect.

I've decided I'm just going to eat what I crave, eat a lot, drink coffee, use aspirin, and get on with my life. Avoiding PUFA's and reducing stress are my main concerns. I'll let you guys know how this goes for me.

----

Okay, now I will get to your points.

I think we should differentiate between insulin sensitivity and what that actually means.

Insulin sensitive just means that a certain cell requires low amounts of insulin to perform the same function as another cell who is more insulin resistant.

Insulin sensitivity isn't always a good thing.

I think what we need to really go for is intelligent insulin handling, or "insulin accuracy", rather than insulin sensitivity.

When people talk about insulin sensitivity, I think they are generally actually talking about insulin accuracy.

With PUFA, it tells the cell to keep consuming energy, it creates little to no insulin resistance, which can be bad for a cell, as the cell will keep up-taking glucose until it dies or is injured.

Now, if you are burning a 50/50 mix of glucose and palmitic acid, you won't be as insulin sensitive as a cell burning 50/50 glucose and linoleic acid.

But, the 50/50 glucose/palmitic burning mitochondria will have far greater insulin accuracy/control, and will undoubtedly be a far healthier cell. The ETC will produce the exact right amount of super-oxide, which will trigger the exact right amount of needed insulin resistance, which will keep the exact right amount of glucose out, which will maximize the ETC's efficiency.

In a cell burning 50/50 glucose/linoleic acid, insulin will not be blocked, and the cell will over-consume, and get a belly-ache (die/injury).

So, we want insulin accuracy, not insulin sensitivity.

This makes sense of why people seem to, or at least used to be able to handle varying ratios of carbs/SFA's. People have been eating carbs and SFA's together for a long long time and they seem to have been pretty healthy.

This makes sense. In the past, people could eat bread and butter, and their cells could intelligently control the amount of glucose uptake, and the cells could thrive. People seemed to eat a lot of different things in the past, and they generally stayed pretty healthy (huge assumption). I think this is because they didn't eat a lot of PUFA.

Nowadays, people eat shitloads of PUFA, and their cells can't accurately control insulin anymore. Boo-boo.

Of course, this is extremely oversimplified.

---

I think mixing carbs and SFA's could be a very good thing.

Carbs have a ton of benefits, and SFA's seem to "stoke the metabolic fire", as westside once said (palmitic acid spurs on pyruvate dehydrogenase, as haidut has also said).

---

I'm not saying that the PUFA depleted animals were insulin resistant, nor am I saying that PUFA is good because it facilitates insulin's activity.

The PUFA depleted animals were very healthy, but I think this is due to their exceptional insulin accuracy, rather than insulin sensitivity (though I do think they were insulin sensitive as well).

---

I do however think that SFA's together with carbs could cause weight gain.

But I want to be clear, weight gain does not equal metabolic dysfunction.

I think SFA's and carbs have a lot of benefits, and I'll take a little weight gain to get those benefits. I need to gain weight so it's okay haha.

I also happen to think that the Randle cycle, though real, isn't a big issue.

I still have to gather my thoughts on the matter, but considering Ray Peat himself talk's about the Randle cycle, yet eat's a good amount of fat, I don't think it's a problem.
 
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BigYellowLemon
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@haidut

And lastly, I don't trust any or most studies on HF diets. They use crisco instead of butter, and that's how they get the results they want (animal death or disease via "heart-healthy" PUFA's).



Also, naked mole rat's are insulin resistant, so I don't think insulin sensitivity is needed for good health (though I still think insulin accuracy is integral to cell health and proper function).
 

m_arch

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Your blog reminds me a lot of this guy: (no title)

He's famous for popularizing the r-K reproductive theory with regard to politics. Liberals are the r, while conservatives are the K. K is enforced by limits on energy, while r's predominate in resource-abundant environments. Obviously these aren't cut-and-dry distinctions.

For your second post, watch this:

Note this doesn't reflect my views on women in the sense of their value. The differences in intelligence aggregations of which you speak was due to careful selection on behalf of the researchers with likely political agendas. Men are "smarter" than women (IQ) due to larger brain volumes and a higher proportion of gray matter to white matter. This doesn't mean men are superior; women are well-adapted to their evolutionary role as reproductive guardians, while men have the specialized task of ensuring resource availability to their families. Also, male brains consume more calories (not just total calories, but proportionally more for their brains.) If you're seeking equality, then this would place women as superior if they housed the same IQ, as they have a lower evolutionary investment; not to mention, men would be incredibly inefficient at a deficit of about 20% or so, and natural selection would have destroyed such a ludicrous lack in energy metabolism over generations of selective pressures.

If you live in a Western society, and I suspect you do, your experiences are likely due to the feminization of our current society. The cultural emphasis on risk-aversion disincentivizes creativity; (play it safe, go to college, get a degree, get a good-paying job, retirement, pension, etc.) This doesn't mean it's "women's" fault; from a Peat perspective, if there was such a thing, the degeneration of the male is due to the excessive estrogenic effect of metabolic inflammation brought on by stress, poor nutrition, inflammatory substances, drugs, the medical establishment, and the list goes on. Regardless, the "man" no longer exists, or if he does he's an enigma. We have a generation of man-children, of which I am one. This has nothing to do with being "macho," it has to do with risk. Risking security for potential and passion.

Going to jail isn't dumb; I'd argue crime in itself just underscores a cultural incompatability. The fact that men commit more crime, and have SIGNIFICANTLY higher suicide rates, just offers that our society does not integrate the male gender. http://www.bcmj.org/sites/default/files/BCMJ_53Vol10_suicide_fig1.JPG

In the same way, it doesn't respect the female gender as well, as women have significantly higher depression rates:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/images/databriefs/51-100/db76_fig3.gif

Now, would you say that people who commit suicide are more stupid than people who live their life in misery?

Would you say that people who commit crime are more stupid than people who go to their day-job and cry in their off-time?

I think you have a systemic problem here, and the people who break from the mould and try to encapsulate some semblance of self-control and power over their lives are known as criminals. What do you do when the system breaks you? You try to lash out and break the system.

You can see this with black people and higher crimes rates in structured society (cultural incompatability). Asians feature the inverse. Let me ask you something; when you think of an Asian, do you think of an aggressive criminal who's daring and willing to risk anything for the chance at freedom, or do you think of a scientist, bookworm, scholar of sorts, or engineer? These are stereotypes, yes, but they're useful. Our society favors the bookworm, not the warrior.

I think when you look at women, you're looking for the wrong things. It's like looking on a basketball team for good hockey players; you might find a person who's good at both, but why don't you look for something that women tend to be better at; namely integrating knowledge into an application that benefits the community, their friends, and most importantly, their families. The wisdom of mothers is something that is no longer respected except by the conservative right.

Interesting thoughts Dave! Thanks
 

m_arch

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Sure, but I just at some microwavable sushi and now have some serious lethargy, a good example of what happens when you mix glucose/PUFA with a high SFA diet. Forgive the simplicity of what I say.

So basically, when the ETC is overloaded with energy, it flows in reverse, and shoots out electrons from complex 1.

When electrons are shot out like that, they create superoxide.

The superoxide in low amounts allows insulin to work better. Insulin triggers the transport of carbohydrates into the cell, amongst other functions.

In high amounts, superoxide actually shut's off insulin, effectively creating what we know as "insulin resistance".

When you are eating primarily carbohydrates, you create a small amount of superoxide, and this allows further function of insulin, as well as the fine-control you need in order to run a carbohydrate metabolism. If there's too many carbs, the cell can quickly and effectively make itself insulin resistant, telling the body that "it has enough", "I'm not hungry anymore", ect.

When you eat primarily saturated fat, it creates a ton of superoxide, which creates insulin resistance, which blocks carbohydrate uptake. Fatty acids aren't dependent on insulin to be uptaken by cells, so the fatty acids block carbohydrates from coming in, while allowing themselves full access.

Carbs and fats don't play nice with eachother, due to the randle effect, but more importantly because that's just how it works. They just don't work well with eachother in the mitochondria. Superoxide happens inherently because they don't work together, superoxide mediated insulin resistance seems to just be a mechanic that the body took advantage of, i.e. mitochondria create superoxide when carbs and saturated fats are metabolized together, let's create a mechanic by which we can use natural signalling to fine-tune the system and make sure they don't metabolize together.

PUFA is a fat that acts like sugar. It's insulin sensitizing (not good in this case). PUFA can bypass the bodies fine-tuning, and can keep the cell eating more and more, even when it's had enough. But still, it allows for normal carbohydrate driven metabolism.

This is probably why people on extremely low-fat high-carb diets, don't suffer problems from PUFA.

I think if you want to mix fat and carbs together, you should use monounsaturated fatty acids, instead of PUFA or saturated fat. MUFA's are a lot more carb tolerant than PUFA or SFA.

Also, be wary of any studies, they are all designed to take advantage of natural phenomena, and make their biases true. Studies like this are in no way indicative of whether PUFA or SFA are good for you or not.

Read the whole hyperlipid article I posted. It's really not that complicated. I'll try to answer any questions you are having trouble with.

I'll come back and post a better description of what's going on tomorrow morning.
Do you mean to imply this in the same meal i.e. dont eat carbs and fats together

Or as a general diet i.e. be hf lc or lf hc?
 
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BigYellowLemon
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@haidut

And lastly, I don't trust any or most studies on HF diets. They use crisco instead of butter, and that's how they get the results they want (animal death or disease via "heart-healthy" PUFA's).



Also, naked mole rat's are insulin resistant, so I don't think insulin sensitivity is needed for good health (though I still think insulin accuracy is integral to cell health and proper function).

I strongly suspect that if a cell is performing is function properly & intelligently, than they body as a whole will become more coherent and healthy.

For example, say you did a HFLC diet, but you based your fat source around PUFA.

Besides the other horrible effects of PUFA, your cells would be insulin resistant, thereby siphoning all of the glucose from your blood and essentially starving your brain of glucose.

This is different from a HFLC diet based on SFA's, whereby cells remain insulin resistant, allowing the glucose to stay in your blood and give your brain a nice supply of steady energy (glucose!). Based on SFA's your cells perform coherently and intelligently, allowing your body to do the same, and thus improve your health.

I suspect this could be a factor neuro-degenerative diseases are so common nowadays, and also why people on HFLC diets experience horrible hypoglycemia. They eat so much PUFA and their cells perform the wrong functions.

Just examples.
 
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BigYellowLemon
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Do you mean to imply this in the same meal i.e. dont eat carbs and fats together

Or as a general diet i.e. be hf lc or lf hc?

Hmm, I'm not sure completely.

I think that the SFA-mediated insulin resistance is transitory, it lasts for a very short time.

So I think that if you timed it right, you could eat an equal amount of fat and carbs, but you would have to space them out.

Example: Eat lot's of and only fruit in the morning and midday, at afternoon and night eat only SFA's. BTW I have no reason for putting carbs first and fat late. You could do fat early day and carbs later.

You could also use an eating schedule like this to take advantage of some higher-level mechanics, like orexin.

---

However, my thinking on all of this has changed somewhat.

I'm not really too worried about eating SFA's and carbs together, regardless of quantity.

I feel as though my system will take care of itself intelligently, and that it will be a net-gain.

Too much glucose and palmitic acid together = moderate insulin resistance, which is okay. That's physiological and fine by me.

Ray has talked about how eating meals lacking in protein, fat, or carbs, will be digested less efficiently, than if they're all together.

I agree with him. I rarely crave a meal of one macronutrient. A piece of bread by itself is rather bland. A stick of butter by itself is nasty. White sugar by itself is boring. All three together is heavenly :hearteyes:.

Now, sometimes I'll crave really bland thing's. Like right now, a bowl of plain rice wouldn't be that bad. Sometimes I crave a fatty item low in protein. But generally I prefer a meal composed of all three macronutrients, mostly carbs and SFA's. I think the three macronutrients have synergistic effects that help each others digestion.

For example, starch and fat. SFA's (butter!) can close tight junctions. Starch's are good, but pieces can open/lodge/enter tight-junctions.

Put them together (rice and butter!) and they not only taste good, but they digest quickly and cleanly.

Even if all of my theoretical concerns aren't true, I don't think it matters. To a certain extent, the stress-relief of having a good, wholesome meal, can be powerfully healing and rejuvenating, countering any negative effect from the food itself. I think it's a net-positive.

I hope it helps !
 

m_arch

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In terms of getting my calories up grilled cheese sandwiches get the job done.
Plain rice or plain potatoes and I want to eat way less, same with ketogenic stuff.
 

MB50

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Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
62
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Washington, DC
@tyw and @m_arch I know you guys were doing really low fat for a while. Any updates on how you are feeling? Have you gradually added in any more fat? I was doing really low fat for about 3 months; mostly short grain rice, potatoes, dried fruit, low fat milk, etc. and I recently started noticing some irritability and feeling anxious sometimes, which is really rare for me. It also may have been from higher dose caffeine (600-800mg) throughout the day. Im going to gradually add in some more fat and wanted to know if you guys have noticed anything from very low fat for a longer period of time?
 

tyw

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Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Messages
407
Location
Cairns, Australia
@tyw and @m_arch I know you guys were doing really low fat for a while. Any updates on how you are feeling? Have you gradually added in any more fat?

Regarding diet, I am not a representative subject that people can draw useful conclusions from :borg:. I'd be able to do fine on lots of macronutrient ratios, and probably could do anything from ketogenic to no-fat.

That stems from all the other work I've done over time to eliminate chronic infections and structural problems (which have a huge impact on overall function). Dietary macronutrients didn't really have much to do with that .... though specific foods had to be avoided, due to other compounds un-related to macronutrients. eg: casein in milk didn't treat me well.

NOTE: in certain conditions, recovery requires macronutrient manipulation. The stuff I've written about Saturated Fat being stimulatory to the immune system means that some conditions would benefit from the addition of such fat, and some conditions will be made worse.​

These days, I would eat anything on occasion out of social courtesy. Mostly though, I tend to stick to a low fat diet (<10% fat), just because I find I can stay lean much easier with that sort of diet, with no negative impact on health.

....
 

Amazoniac

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Joined
Sep 10, 2014
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8,583
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Not Uganda
That stems from all the other work I've done over time to eliminate chronic infections and structural problems (which have a huge impact on overall function). Dietary macronutrients didn't really have much to do with that .... though specific foods had to be avoided, due to other compounds un-related to macronutrients. eg: casein in milk didn't treat me well.
Hey tyw, if you don't mind, can you explain in more details? I know it's an individual thing but I'm curious: What infection and how you got over it? Same for the structural problem; and how the casein issue was tied to those back then?
 

m_arch

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
483
Location
Perth, Australia
@tyw and @m_arch I know you guys were doing really low fat for a while. Any updates on how you are feeling? Have you gradually added in any more fat? I was doing really low fat for about 3 months; mostly short grain rice, potatoes, dried fruit, low fat milk, etc. and I recently started noticing some irritability and feeling anxious sometimes, which is really rare for me. It also may have been from higher dose caffeine (600-800mg) throughout the day. Im going to gradually add in some more fat and wanted to know if you guys have noticed anything from very low fat for a longer period of time?
A low fat diet sits badly with me and a dna test confirmed i have elevated needs for fat soluble vitamins - didnt make it past the 7 day mark on low fat. My diet now is moslty oj, grape juice and hard cheeses (intolerance to milk but hard cheese like cheddar is good). I also have boiled eggs and liver jerkey occasionally

Ive always been lean so i suspect my limiting factor is fat solubles - i supplement a, e , k2 and collagen (and probably will do tjese long term ). Im experimenti g with tyromix to try get my pulse up atm but it looks like straight t3 would be a better option.

Ive gone from around 71kg to seemingly set point 81kg while body fat % has gone from 10% to 15% and i consume probably 2700 calories a day on average, but it has been winter here. I generally feel stronger and seem to recover better
 

tyw

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Messages
407
Location
Cairns, Australia
Hey tyw, if you don't mind, can you explain in more details? I know it's an individual thing but I'm curious: What infection and how you got over it? Same for the structural problem; and how the casein issue was tied to those back then?

I will only describe what I did, and not touch on any the mechanisms by which I came to know what I know. I have zero proof for any mechanism behind the diagnostic or treatment modalities that I have used, and do not want to describe how they are performed.

Mine was a case of a chronic Listeria infection, inherited from my Mother since birth, and which stayed with me until I eradicated it just over a year ago (24 years total). All joint issues, digestive issues, emotional imbalances, and basically everything else, could be attributed to this pathogen.

Back was weakened by this pathogen some time in my teens, leading to L3-L4 disk herniation when I was 18 (while deadlifting a sub-maximal load). Herniation led to many complications, amongst which were the digestive and immune function, and was also the start of much more severe food sensitivities.

NOTE: I've seen structural issues in the joints and fascia lead to some crazy complications which I would never have thought possible until I actually saw them in person. Example: one lady couldn't lactate / breastfeed her child. Turned out to be a misaligned disc in the midback. Osteopractic re-alignment of that disc it allowed for lactation to resume almost instantly.

Some more details about this in the interview that Jason Prall did with Dr Josh Lamaro -- Osteopathy, Fascia, Tensegrity, & the Body's Supercomputer . Note that I am biased, because I know Jason personally, and Josh is a good friend :cigar:. But the stuff they touch on is relevant to this discussion.

"Bio-Energetics" includes the ability to transfer that energy through the body. Fascia and collagen meridians serve as a primary medium through which that energy transfer occurs.​

All the members of the Listeria strain can become intracellular pathogens, and are not easily eliminated. Antibiotic treatment did not work, and many previous herbal remedies also failed because of lack of specificity in diagnosis (I didn't know I had Listeria until the middle of 2015).

The treatment protocol was very simple once accurate diagnosis was found, and the main active substances were Holarrhena Antidysenterica and Clove Extract, along with about another 6 "support supplements" (stuff like Manganese and Methylfolate to support methylation pathways).

I also had my back re-aligned through a particular type of manipulation, done by this osteopath (which I will not name) would pioneered a custom built table which can pull on the back at specific angles, and literally break apart any scar tissue. This fixed the lingering issues with the disk herniation.

----
Metabolism is Broken. But why?

This is yet another thread of speculation to which I have zero proof, and to which I do not want to have further discussions about. What I state below should be treated as mere interesting speculation. I am not a doctor, and all observational claims are derived from my privilege of being able to observe particular medical professionals work (won't say who .... but I guess I already gave it away that I know Dr Lamaro personally).

The Claim: many invasive elements have adapted over billions of years to be able to chronically interfere with metabolism, whilst remaining un-purgeable by the body's own defence mechanisms.

We're talking about various kinds of bacteria, fungi, archaea, and viri, which can infect the organism, integrate itself into important pathways of that organism, and compromise it at a very low level. Such organisms would share many of the same chemical pathways as the higher organism, and compete on those pathways. eg: methylation being such a simple pathway (adding or subtracting a CH3 group), is a very ancient pathway, and is very commonly disrupted.

NOTE: almost always, people who have such low level compromise have a chronic infection. The mainstream will label this as "Genetic", without acknowledging that invasive elements can alter genetic expression from within the cell.​

Once such an infection takes hold, no amount of dietary changes or "energy additions" serve to fix such people. The old Chinese Medicine methodology must be performed -- First Purge the negative element, then Tonify the body's endogenous systems, then Balance out various needs of the body. Without the purgation step, all we are doing is "feeding the invasion".

However, this field of study is boring to Western Medicine :bigtears:, and the study of chronic infections has been largely abandoned. The symptoms are too generic, which is a horrible fit for Western Medical Diagnosis.

eg: Syphilis is just termed "the great mimick" -- it is just acknowledged that symptoms will be non-specific, but then there is not much understanding into how it works, and treatment is often just generic as well (antibiotics, then pray that it works). It is known that the bacteria responsible for this infection can reside in the nervous system, and thereby avoid any detection via serum tests. It is also known that even in this state, patients can "appear asymptomatic".

Such an infection is chronic, can easily escape detection, and can lead to major cumulative stress on the body over time. I can guarantee that there are many other (thousands and thousands) of such chronically infective bacteria out there, to which Western Medicine has overlooked. Another example is Lyme Disease, to which only a few of the Borrelia species are believed to be implicated (what about the others? how would you know that the Person has "Lyme Disease", when the symptoms are so generic?).

Chinese Medicine on the other hand, is purely observational, and treatments are based on these observations. This makes it more useful in treating such chronic infections. The big weakness is the lack of rigorous mechanistic study, and archaic descriptions like "this herb cures dampness in the spleen" dominate.

But back to the topic of this section -- "Why is my Metabolism screwed in the first place?". I've seen enough cases of patients to which no amount of dietary or lifestyle intervention solves the fundamental issues with metabolism. Be it removal of non-native EMF stress, adherence to circadian cycles, hormone replacement, avoidance of particular foods, etc .... all are just "Stress Relievers".

From a clinical perspective, such interventions can make certain patients "feel a lot better". This is often enough to establish oneself as a great medical practitioner. Business is business :doctor:.

However, such interventions almost never restore robustness (unless they inadvertently remove the invasive element by some good fortune). "Robustness" in the sense that I used to get skin breakouts when I ate ice cream, to now being able to drink beer, eat Korean Fried Chicken, and have no negative side effects while keeping my visible abs.

Only removal / purgation of the stress-inducing invasive element can lead to recovery of metabolic capacity, and ultimately good health.

....
 

Regina

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
6,511
Location
Chicago
I will only describe what I did, and not touch on any the mechanisms by which I came to know what I know. I have zero proof for any mechanism behind the diagnostic or treatment modalities that I have used, and do not want to describe how they are performed.

Mine was a case of a chronic Listeria infection, inherited from my Mother since birth, and which stayed with me until I eradicated it just over a year ago (24 years total). All joint issues, digestive issues, emotional imbalances, and basically everything else, could be attributed to this pathogen.

I will only describe what I did, and not touch on any the mechanisms by which I came to know what I know. I have zero proof for any mechanism behind the diagnostic or treatment modalities that I have used, and do not want to describe how they are performed.

Mine was a case of a chronic Listeria infection, inherited from my Mother since birth, and which stayed with me until I eradicated it just over a year ago (24 years total). All joint issues, digestive issues, emotional imbalances, and basically everything else, could be attributed to this pathogen.

Back was weakened by this pathogen some time in my teens, leading to L3-L4 disk herniation when I was 18 (while deadlifting a sub-maximal load). Herniation led to many complications, amongst which were the digestive and immune function, and was also the start of much more severe food sensitivities.

NOTE: I've seen structural issues in the joints and fascia lead to some crazy complications which I would never have thought possible until I actually saw them in person. Example: one lady couldn't lactate / breastfeed her child. Turned out to be a misaligned disc in the midback. Osteopractic re-alignment of that disc it allowed for lactation to resume almost instantly.

Some more details about this in the interview that Jason Prall did with Dr Josh Lamaro -- Osteopathy, Fascia, Tensegrity, & the Body's Supercomputer . Note that I am biased, because I know Jason personally, and Josh is a good friend :cigar:. But the stuff they touch on is relevant to this discussion.

"Bio-Energetics" includes the ability to transfer that energy through the body. Fascia and collagen meridians serve as a primary medium through which that energy transfer occurs.​

All the members of the Listeria strain can become intracellular pathogens, and are not easily eliminated. Antibiotic treatment did not work, and many previous herbal remedies also failed because of lack of specificity in diagnosis (I didn't know I had Listeria until the middle of 2015).

The treatment protocol was very simple once accurate diagnosis was found, and the main active substances were Holarrhena Antidysenterica and Clove Extract, along with about another 6 "support supplements" (stuff like Manganese and Methylfolate to support methylation pathways).

I also had my back re-aligned through a particular type of manipulation, done by this osteopath (which I will not name) would pioneered a custom built table which can pull on the back at specific angles, and literally break apart any scar tissue. This fixed the lingering issues with the disk herniation.

----
Metabolism is Broken. But why?

This is yet another thread of speculation to which I have zero proof, and to which I do not want to have further discussions about. What I state below should be treated as mere interesting speculation. I am not a doctor, and all observational claims are derived from my privilege of being able to observe particular medical professionals work (won't say who .... but I guess I already gave it away that I know Dr Lamaro personally).

The Claim: many invasive elements have adapted over billions of years to be able to chronically interfere with metabolism, whilst remaining un-purgeable by the body's own defence mechanisms.

We're talking about various kinds of bacteria, fungi, archaea, and viri, which can infect the organism, integrate itself into important pathways of that organism, and compromise it at a very low level. Such organisms would share many of the same chemical pathways as the higher organism, and compete on those pathways. eg: methylation being such a simple pathway (adding or subtracting a CH3 group), is a very ancient pathway, and is very commonly disrupted.

NOTE: almost always, people who have such low level compromise have a chronic infection. The mainstream will label this as "Genetic", without acknowledging that invasive elements can alter genetic expression from within the cell.​

Once such an infection takes hold, no amount of dietary changes or "energy additions" serve to fix such people. The old Chinese Medicine methodology must be performed -- First Purge the negative element, then Tonify the body's endogenous systems, then Balance out various needs of the body. Without the purgation step, all we are doing is "feeding the invasion".

However, this field of study is boring to Western Medicine :bigtears:, and the study of chronic infections has been largely abandoned. The symptoms are too generic, which is a horrible fit for Western Medical Diagnosis.

eg: Syphilis is just termed "the great mimick" -- it is just acknowledged that symptoms will be non-specific, but then there is not much understanding into how it works, and treatment is often just generic as well (antibiotics, then pray that it works). It is known that the bacteria responsible for this infection can reside in the nervous system, and thereby avoid any detection via serum tests. It is also known that even in this state, patients can "appear asymptomatic".

Such an infection is chronic, can easily escape detection, and can lead to major cumulative stress on the body over time. I can guarantee that there are many other (thousands and thousands) of such chronically infective bacteria out there, to which Western Medicine has overlooked. Another example is Lyme Disease, to which only a few of the Borrelia species are believed to be implicated (what about the others? how would you know that the Person has "Lyme Disease", when the symptoms are so generic?).

Chinese Medicine on the other hand, is purely observational, and treatments are based on these observations. This makes it more useful in treating such chronic infections. The big weakness is the lack of rigorous mechanistic study, and archaic descriptions like "this herb cures dampness in the spleen" dominate.

But back to the topic of this section -- "Why is my Metabolism screwed in the first place?". I've seen enough cases of patients to which no amount of dietary or lifestyle intervention solves the fundamental issues with metabolism. Be it removal of non-native EMF stress, adherence to circadian cycles, hormone replacement, avoidance of particular foods, etc .... all are just "Stress Relievers".

From a clinical perspective, such interventions can make certain patients "feel a lot better". This is often enough to establish oneself as a great medical practitioner. Business is business :doctor:.

However, such interventions almost never restore robustness (unless they inadvertently remove the invasive element by some good fortune). "Robustness" in the sense that I used to get skin breakouts when I ate ice cream, to now being able to drink beer, eat Korean Fried Chicken, and have no negative side effects while keeping my visible abs.

Only removal / purgation of the stress-inducing invasive element can lead to recovery of metabolic capacity, and ultimately good health.

....

Back was weakened by this pathogen some time in my teens, leading to L3-L4 disk herniation when I was 18 (while deadlifting a sub-maximal load). Herniation led to many complications, amongst which were the digestive and immune function, and was also the start of much more severe food sensitivities.

NOTE: I've seen structural issues in the joints and fascia lead to some crazy complications which I would never have thought possible until I actually saw them in person. Example: one lady couldn't lactate / breastfeed her child. Turned out to be a misaligned disc in the midback. Osteopractic re-alignment of that disc it allowed for lactation to resume almost instantly.

Some more details about this in the interview that Jason Prall did with Dr Josh Lamaro -- Osteopathy, Fascia, Tensegrity, & the Body's Supercomputer . Note that I am biased, because I know Jason personally, and Josh is a good friend :cigar:. But the stuff they touch on is relevant to this discussion.

"Bio-Energetics" includes the ability to transfer that energy through the body. Fascia and collagen meridians serve as a primary medium through which that energy transfer occurs.​

All the members of the Listeria strain can become intracellular pathogens, and are not easily eliminated. Antibiotic treatment did not work, and many previous herbal remedies also failed because of lack of specificity in diagnosis (I didn't know I had Listeria until the middle of 2015).

The treatment protocol was very simple once accurate diagnosis was found, and the main active substances were Holarrhena Antidysenterica and Clove Extract, along with about another 6 "support supplements" (stuff like Manganese and Methylfolate to support methylation pathways).

I also had my back re-aligned through a particular type of manipulation, done by this osteopath (which I will not name) would pioneered a custom built table which can pull on the back at specific angles, and literally break apart any scar tissue. This fixed the lingering issues with the disk herniation.

----
Metabolism is Broken. But why?

This is yet another thread of speculation to which I have zero proof, and to which I do not want to have further discussions about. What I state below should be treated as mere interesting speculation. I am not a doctor, and all observational claims are derived from my privilege of being able to observe particular medical professionals work (won't say who .... but I guess I already gave it away that I know Dr Lamaro personally).

The Claim: many invasive elements have adapted over billions of years to be able to chronically interfere with metabolism, whilst remaining un-purgeable by the body's own defence mechanisms.

We're talking about various kinds of bacteria, fungi, archaea, and viri, which can infect the organism, integrate itself into important pathways of that organism, and compromise it at a very low level. Such organisms would share many of the same chemical pathways as the higher organism, and compete on those pathways. eg: methylation being such a simple pathway (adding or subtracting a CH3 group), is a very ancient pathway, and is very commonly disrupted.

NOTE: almost always, people who have such low level compromise have a chronic infection. The mainstream will label this as "Genetic", without acknowledging that invasive elements can alter genetic expression from within the cell.​

Once such an infection takes hold, no amount of dietary changes or "energy additions" serve to fix such people. The old Chinese Medicine methodology must be performed -- First Purge the negative element, then Tonify the body's endogenous systems, then Balance out various needs of the body. Without the purgation step, all we are doing is "feeding the invasion".

However, this field of study is boring to Western Medicine :bigtears:, and the study of chronic infections has been largely abandoned. The symptoms are too generic, which is a horrible fit for Western Medical Diagnosis.

eg: Syphilis is just termed "the great mimick" -- it is just acknowledged that symptoms will be non-specific, but then there is not much understanding into how it works, and treatment is often just generic as well (antibiotics, then pray that it works). It is known that the bacteria responsible for this infection can reside in the nervous system, and thereby avoid any detection via serum tests. It is also known that even in this state, patients can "appear asymptomatic".

Such an infection is chronic, can easily escape detection, and can lead to major cumulative stress on the body over time. I can guarantee that there are many other (thousands and thousands) of such chronically infective bacteria out there, to which Western Medicine has overlooked. Another example is Lyme Disease, to which only a few of the Borrelia species are believed to be implicated (what about the others? how would you know that the Person has "Lyme Disease", when the symptoms are so generic?).

Chinese Medicine on the other hand, is purely observational, and treatments are based on these observations. This makes it more useful in treating such chronic infections. The big weakness is the lack of rigorous mechanistic study, and archaic descriptions like "this herb cures dampness in the spleen" dominate.

But back to the topic of this section -- "Why is my Metabolism screwed in the first place?". I've seen enough cases of patients to which no amount of dietary or lifestyle intervention solves the fundamental issues with metabolism. Be it removal of non-native EMF stress, adherence to circadian cycles, hormone replacement, avoidance of particular foods, etc .... all are just "Stress Relievers".

From a clinical perspective, such interventions can make certain patients "feel a lot better". This is often enough to establish oneself as a great medical practitioner. Business is business :doctor:.

However, such interventions almost never restore robustness (unless they inadvertently remove the invasive element by some good fortune). "Robustness" in the sense that I used to get skin breakouts when I ate ice cream, to now being able to drink beer, eat Korean Fried Chicken, and have no negative side effects while keeping my visible abs.

Only removal / purgation of the stress-inducing invasive element can lead to recovery of metabolic capacity, and ultimately good health.

....
Congratulations TVW and thanks for posting this part of your journey. I think you are right.
 

MB50

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
62
Location
Washington, DC
@tyw very interesting post as always; the chronic infection certainly didn't negatively impact your intelligence. What you say is very interesting though and I was wondering if you had any suggested reading on the subject of "invasive elements" or the fact that issues with different collagen meridians can manifest themselves in a random area of the body that is seemingly unrelated. Thanks a lot
 
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