Here's to a Proper Calf Liver Replacement Supplement

[XPlus]

post 112744 Curious why. I (and many others on this forum) take Haidut's Retinil, which I believe is retinyl acetate.

Wilfrid puts it nicely in his post above. Here's also some RP quotes in this regard:

Yes, vitamin A and estrogen are antagonistic, and while estrogen promotes keratinization (shedding of skin cells), vitamin A opposes it. Since vitamin A is highly unsaturated, in excess it suppresses the thyroid, so it has to be balanced with the thyroid; the combination is effective for increasing progesterone and decreasing estrogen, slowing the turnover of skin cells, and making the skin cells function longer before flaking off. Plugged pores, combined with a local shift toward synthesizing inflammatory substances, foster bacterial infection. Bright light stimulates the production of steroids, and consumes vitamin A very quickly, but when the balance is right, the acne clears up in just a day or two. Cream, butter, eggs, and liver are good sources of vitamin A. When people supplement thyroid and eat liver once or twice a week, their acne and dandruff (and many other problems) usually clear up very quickly. It was acne and dandruff that led me into studying the steroids and thyroid, and in the process I found that they were related to constipation and food sensitivity.

"For several years, I had a similar need to take 100,000 i.u. daily to prevent acne and ingrown whiskers, so I read a lot about its effects. The toxic effects of extremely big doses, such as 500,000 to a million i.u., seem to be from either oxidative processes (rancidity) that are prevented by adequate vitamin E, or by antithyroid effects. I found that when my need for vitamin A began to decrease I tended to accumulate carotene in my calluses; that happens when the thyroid function is lower, reducing the need for vitamin A. Since you are eating foods with carotene, the calluses on your palms or soles should serve as an indicator of when your tissues are saturated with vitamin A. About 100 i.u. of vitamin E would help to keep the vitamin A from being wasted by oxidation, and possibly could reduce your requirement for it."

post 112754 Hi Such,

The idea is interesting but as usual when it comes to synthetic vitamins/minerals supplements the interrelationship between those are likely to be problematic.
Vitamin A ( as a supp ) is very unstable and easily oxidized; its oxidation being, among other things, catalyzed by trace metals, notably iron and copper.
Which means that's the amount of vitamin A will quicly deteriorate and can't be counted on.
Too much cobalt can sometimes be problematic for hypothyroid people.
Selenium contains sulfur... and sulfur and cobalt can also interact. In fact, B12 in supplement often react with thiamine ( a sulfur containing vitamin ) and copper to form inactive B12 analogue. And so on....

Very insightful Wilfrid.
Do you know exactly why Zinc supplements might be problematic.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 112754 Hi Such,

The idea is interesting but as usual when it comes to synthetic vitamins/minerals supplements the interrelationship between those are likely to be problematic.
Vitamin A ( as a supp ) is very unstable and easily oxidized; its oxidation being, among other things, catalyzed by trace metals, notably iron and copper.
Which means that's the amount of vitamin A will quicly deteriorate and can't be counted on.
Too much cobalt can sometimes be problematic for hypothyroid people.
Selenium contains sulfur... and sulfur and cobalt can also interact. In fact, B12 in supplement often react with thiamine ( a sulfur containing vitamin ) and copper to form inactive B12 analogue. And so on....

One of the good things about this is eliminating some of the few bad things about daily calf liver. I wouldn't really include iron in the first place, and copper could also be done without if the technology cannot protect the retinyl. Zinc would probably also be an issue. B12 could come in hydroxide form and thiamine isn't really needed in this recipe, I think.

 

[Wilfrid]

post 112744 Curious why. I (and many others on this forum) take Haidut's Retinil, which I believe is retinyl acetate.

Wilfrid puts it nicely in his post above. Here's also some RP quotes in this regard:

Yes, vitamin A and estrogen are antagonistic, and while estrogen promotes keratinization (shedding of skin cells), vitamin A opposes it. Since vitamin A is highly unsaturated, in excess it suppresses the thyroid, so it has to be balanced with the thyroid; the combination is effective for increasing progesterone and decreasing estrogen, slowing the turnover of skin cells, and making the skin cells function longer before flaking off. Plugged pores, combined with a local shift toward synthesizing inflammatory substances, foster bacterial infection. Bright light stimulates the production of steroids, and consumes vitamin A very quickly, but when the balance is right, the acne clears up in just a day or two. Cream, butter, eggs, and liver are good sources of vitamin A. When people supplement thyroid and eat liver once or twice a week, their acne and dandruff (and many other problems) usually clear up very quickly. It was acne and dandruff that led me into studying the steroids and thyroid, and in the process I found that they were related to constipation and food sensitivity.

"For several years, I had a similar need to take 100,000 i.u. daily to prevent acne and ingrown whiskers, so I read a lot about its effects. The toxic effects of extremely big doses, such as 500,000 to a million i.u., seem to be from either oxidative processes (rancidity) that are prevented by adequate vitamin E, or by antithyroid effects. I found that when my need for vitamin A began to decrease I tended to accumulate carotene in my calluses; that happens when the thyroid function is lower, reducing the need for vitamin A. Since you are eating foods with carotene, the calluses on your palms or soles should serve as an indicator of when your tissues are saturated with vitamin A. About 100 i.u. of vitamin E would help to keep the vitamin A from being wasted by oxidation, and possibly could reduce your requirement for it."

post 112754 Hi Such,

The idea is interesting but as usual when it comes to synthetic vitamins/minerals supplements the interrelationship between those are likely to be problematic.
Vitamin A ( as a supp ) is very unstable and easily oxidized; its oxidation being, among other things, catalyzed by trace metals, notably iron and copper.
Which means that's the amount of vitamin A will quicly deteriorate and can't be counted on.
Too much cobalt can sometimes be problematic for hypothyroid people.
Selenium contains sulfur... and sulfur and cobalt can also interact. In fact, B12 in supplement often react with thiamine ( a sulfur containing vitamin ) and copper to form inactive B12 analogue. And so on....

Very insightful Wilfrid.
Do you know exactly why Zinc supplements might be problematic.

Hi, Ray wrote in " nutrition for women " about cadmium contamination in manufacturated zinc supplement. Cadmium and zinc are close in the periodic table elements.
Supplements are also problematic due to zinc interactions with other vitamins/minerals.
A good book about this subject is " Biochemistry of zinc " Anan Prasad Edit, particulary chapter 12. You can download the book easily. If you can't find the link, please PM me and I will send it to you.

 

[Wilfrid]

post 112754 Hi Such,

The idea is interesting but as usual when it comes to synthetic vitamins/minerals supplements the interrelationship between those are likely to be problematic.
Vitamin A ( as a supp ) is very unstable and easily oxidized; its oxidation being, among other things, catalyzed by trace metals, notably iron and copper.
Which means that's the amount of vitamin A will quicly deteriorate and can't be counted on.
Too much cobalt can sometimes be problematic for hypothyroid people.
Selenium contains sulfur... and sulfur and cobalt can also interact. In fact, B12 in supplement often react with thiamine ( a sulfur containing vitamin ) and copper to form inactive B12 analogue. And so on....

One of the good things about this is eliminating some of the few bad things about daily calf liver. I wouldn't really include iron in the first place, and copper could also be done without if the technology cannot protect the retinyl. Zinc would probably also be an issue. B12 could come in hydroxide form and thiamine isn't really needed in this recipe, I think.

Hi,

As for the thiamine, I was just making an assumption that since both selenium and thiamine contains sulfur, a reaction between sulfur containing mineral, or vitamin, and cobalt, as in B12, are likely to occur. Even in the hydroxide form, the cobalt ion is still present.
I think the book " Inorganic chemistry of B12 " by John-Macdonald-Pratt do summarize those potential interactions nicely.

 

[tara]

post 112740 Freshness is key. After 2-3 days in the fridge, any kind of liver goes disgusting.

:1
I got lamb liver recently because they were out of beef liver. I usually crave and enjoy my little servings of liver. This was hard to eat. But I think it was just a bit less fresh than I usually get.

 

[Wilfrid]

@XPlus,

I forgot to mention that Ray often warned that zinc supplement can oxidize vitamins in the intestine. This is due, I guess, to the strong interaction between iron and zinc.
In fact, toxic levels of zinc ( Ray told me once that only 5-10 mg of supplemental zinc for 10-15 days, maximum, is enough to cure a deficiency ) may shorten the life span of red blood cells and cause anemia because of the faster iron turnover (Settlemire and Matrone, 1967). Toxic levels of zinc can be easily achieved by supplementation alone. And it seems that zinc excess can interfere with iron metabolism. Hence Ray's warning ( I'm just making an assumption here ) about potential oxidative properties of supplemental zinc, as interfering with iron metabolism is not something we want, iron being a strong pro-oxidant that can initiate very dangerous redox reactions. Of course, " toxic level " of any given substance is individual but better to play it safe with foods alone than doing the russian roulette with synthetic supplements. :2cents

 

[Nicholas]

vitamin c, too. good luck feeling comfortable about mixing iron and vitamin c.

 

[milk_lover]

post 112924 vitamin c, too. good luck feeling comfortable about mixing iron and vitamin c.

I wouldn't worry about vitamin C increasing iron absorbance from liver. It is almost negligible. According to cronometer, 100g serving of beef liver has merely 1.9 mg.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 112909

post 112754 Hi Such,

The idea is interesting but as usual when it comes to synthetic vitamins/minerals supplements the interrelationship between those are likely to be problematic.
Vitamin A ( as a supp ) is very unstable and easily oxidized; its oxidation being, among other things, catalyzed by trace metals, notably iron and copper.
Which means that's the amount of vitamin A will quicly deteriorate and can't be counted on.
Too much cobalt can sometimes be problematic for hypothyroid people.
Selenium contains sulfur... and sulfur and cobalt can also interact. In fact, B12 in supplement often react with thiamine ( a sulfur containing vitamin ) and copper to form inactive B12 analogue. And so on....

One of the good things about this is eliminating some of the few bad things about daily calf liver. I wouldn't really include iron in the first place, and copper could also be done without if the technology cannot protect the retinyl. Zinc would probably also be an issue. B12 could come in hydroxide form and thiamine isn't really needed in this recipe, I think.

Hi,

As for the thiamine, I was just making an assumption that since both selenium and thiamine contains sulfur, a reaction between sulfur containing mineral, or vitamin, and cobalt, as in B12, are likely to occur. Even in the hydroxide form, the cobalt ion is still present.
I think the book " Inorganic chemistry of B12 " by John-Macdonald-Pratt do summarize those potential interactions nicely.

Ohh you're right good point. But why is there sulfur in selenium?

 

[Nicholas]

post 112949

post 112924 vitamin c, too. good luck feeling comfortable about mixing iron and vitamin c.

I wouldn't worry about vitamin C increasing iron absorbance from liver. It is almost negligible. According to cronometer, 100g serving of beef liver has merely 1.9 mg.

but supplementing iron and vitamin c at the same time is, i believe, medically proven to be toxic....but perhaps not if the c is so low.

 

[Wilfrid]

post 112909

post 112754 Hi Such,

The idea is interesting but as usual when it comes to synthetic vitamins/minerals supplements the interrelationship between those are likely to be problematic.
Vitamin A ( as a supp ) is very unstable and easily oxidized; its oxidation being, among other things, catalyzed by trace metals, notably iron and copper.
Which means that's the amount of vitamin A will quicly deteriorate and can't be counted on.
Too much cobalt can sometimes be problematic for hypothyroid people.
Selenium contains sulfur... and sulfur and cobalt can also interact. In fact, B12 in supplement often react with thiamine ( a sulfur containing vitamin ) and copper to form inactive B12 analogue. And so on....

One of the good things about this is eliminating some of the few bad things about daily calf liver. I wouldn't really include iron in the first place, and copper could also be done without if the technology cannot protect the retinyl. Zinc would probably also be an issue. B12 could come in hydroxide form and thiamine isn't really needed in this recipe, I think.

Hi,

As for the thiamine, I was just making an assumption that since both selenium and thiamine contains sulfur, a reaction between sulfur containing mineral, or vitamin, and cobalt, as in B12, are likely to occur. Even in the hydroxide form, the cobalt ion is still present.
I think the book " Inorganic chemistry of B12 " by John-Macdonald-Pratt do summarize those potential interactions nicely.

Ohh you're right good point. But why is there sulfur in selenium?

You're right it should not have sulfur in selenium. However, much more like zinc supplement and their contamination by cadmium ( cadmium is just below zinc in the periodic table of elements), if you look at this same periodic table of elements, you will notice that both, sulfur and selenium, are in the same group IId. Selenium being just below sulfur. Thus, they are sharing similar chemical characteristics and will probably end up in the same materials.

Here is a quote from wikipedia:

"....Selenium is found in metal sulfide ores, where it partially replaces the sulfur. Commercially, selenium is produced as a byproduct in the refining of these ores, most often during production. Minerals that are pure selenide or selenate compounds are known, but are rare ".

Of course, unlike the zinc-cadmium thing, there is no studies to backup my claim about the presence of sulfur in manufacturated selenium supplement, but we have to keep in mind that cadmium is a well known carcinogenic compound, hence the scientific research about this element, his toxicity, research studies about his eventual presence in dietary supplement ect.., and Sulfur is not. Ray, in one of his article, also wrote about this interesting characteristic of the elements when they are sharing the same group, it was about sodium and lithium. However, I think that the manufacturing process ( ie " purification " ) of the supplement, will determine how much trace of sulfur will be present in the supplements. This is the main problem when it comes to supplements and it might be the reason why Ray warns again " contamination " and " purity problem " during the fabrication. Even " trace " of unwanted element in a supplement is enough to produce catalytic reactions.
Back to our subject, two of the most used selenium form in supp are L-selenomethionine and Se-Methyl L-Selenocysteine which contains methionine and cysteine. The other option is to use either the selenite or selenate form, but we have to be sure about the quality of the raw materials and in those forms, the selenium is probably more prone to react with other vitamins/minerals than the organic one. The problem still stands with the yeast-form of the Se, I think.
If I remember correctly, a russian ( ah, those russians....) company has made a line of supplement with those various interactions in mind. I think the brand name is Alphavit or Alfavit something like this.
Maybe, we could get some inspiration from their formulas?
I think they don't combine B12 with the selenium element in their products.
Anyway, your idea is great as long as we can get the highest and purest quality of the raw materials and be careful about potential interactions.

 

[Wilfrid]

Here it is:
http://www.alphavit.ru/eng/

About vitamins and minerals interactions:

http://www.alphavit.ru/files/34/Interaction_Shih.doc

 

[XPlus]

post 112919 @XPlus,

I forgot to mention that Ray often warned that zinc supplement can oxidize vitamins in the intestine. This is due, I guess, to the strong interaction between iron and zinc.
In fact, toxic levels of zinc ( Ray told me once that only 5-10 mg of supplemental zinc for 10-15 days, maximum, is enough to cure a deficiency ) may shorten the life span of red blood cells and cause anemia because of the faster iron turnover (Settlemire and Matrone, 1967). Toxic levels of zinc can be easily achieved by supplementation alone. And it seems that zinc excess can interfere with iron metabolism. Hence Ray's warning ( I'm just making an assumption here ) about potential oxidative properties of supplemental zinc, as interfering with iron metabolism is not something we want, iron being a strong pro-oxidant that can initiate very dangerous redox reactions. Of course, " toxic level " of any given substance is individual but better to play it safe with foods alone than doing the russian roulette with synthetic supplements. :2cents

That's some great wealth of information.
Thanks, Wil.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I always take all B vitamins at once

 

[tara]

post 113079 I always take all B vitamins at once

Me too.