Help with Gabapentin swelling.

[Ganne]

I have posted here before about my 33 year old daughter who took Gabapentin for three weeks. It caused her hands and feet to swell and the swelling was very painful. She has been off of it a year and the pain and swelling are still with her. We have seen too many doctors to count and they all say the swelling should resolve. This has greatly impacted her life. Her health has basically been ruined by this drug. She took 300-600 3 times a day. She had no other side effects. It didnt even begin to cause her to be sleepy or high. We have researched the action of this drug. Some papers say Gabapentin raises Gaba and some say it blocks glutamate. She actually feels a little better take collegen and aminos so this seems like high GABA but magnesium seems to help as well. We are so lost. Has anyone here ever heard of this condition? Or dose anyone understand how this drug actually works. She seems irritated but has no energy some symptoms point to high Gaba and some point to low.

 

[seely]

I have experience with glutamate issues and my dear MIL was addicted to gabapentin for the last few years of her life. It caused the exact same issues you described if she missed a dose.

Have you had mineral testing done? I’m curious where selenium and potassium are on the range?

And with glutamate, have you looked into a REID diet? It’s not peat, but I found eliminating all of those high glutamate foods, then balancing them back in one at a time, solved so many issues for me

 

[BibleBeliever]

What is her salt intake like? (Not iodized of course, but sea salt or pickling) Has she tried increasing salt to see if it helps with the swelling?

Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity

Despite numerous publications showing that diuretics could cause the edematous problems that they were supposed to remedy, they have been one of the most profitable types of drug. Dietary salt restriction has become a cultural cliche, largely as a consequence of the belief that sodium...

raypeat.com

Salt is the best regulator of excessive liquids. Helps increase magnesium and atp.
Looking up this gabapentin it may increase serotonin besides increasing gaba, which is probably why there is correlation with suicidal behavior associated with it.
Serotonin lowers salt levels. Salt lowers serotonin.

So through 2 mechanisms salt has the greatly probability of application based on the data presented.

 

[Ganne]

Her salt levels have been low since taking the drug they have never been over 140 since taking the drug and as low as 134. Her lady blood test was the highest at 139. Her aldosterone is low too. But when she adds salt it sometimes makes the swelling worse. So it seems counterproductive.
Also she has Hashimoto’s and uses 10 of t3 and 10 of t4. She has trouble raising t4. Her thyroid numbers look good as well as her antibodies. We just can’t flip this edema.

 

[Ganne]

Her salt levels have been low since taking the drug they have never been over 140 since taking the drug and as low as 134. Her lady blood test was the highest at 139. Her aldosterone is low too. But when she adds salt it sometimes makes the swelling worse. So it seems counterproductive.
Also she has Hashimoto’s and uses 10 of t3 and 10 of t4. She has trouble raising t4. Her thyroid numbers look good as well as her antibodies. We just can’t flip this edema.

What about adding copper? I have been looking for a link between low copper and Gabapentin but have not found one. Something g the drug did caused this. She used it before for shingles and got it immediately but it went right away.

 

[baron]

I got gabapentin perscribed for some neuropathic pain recently, saw that one of the main side effects was suicidal ideation and threw it in the garbage.

I'm reading right now that it has a secondary effect of calcium channel blockade which causes the swelling, but it's strange it has lingerd on, she should get her kidneys and heart checked.

 

[Ganne]

I got gabapentin perscribed for some neuropathic pain recently, saw that one of the main side effects was suicidal ideation and threw it in the garbage.

I'm reading right now that it has a secondary effect of calcium channel blockade which causes the swelling, but it's strange it has lingerd on, she should get her kidneys and heart checked.

She has had blood test for kidney function and her doctor has listened to her heart. All looks very good. I was wondering if the calcium channel blocker effects could have something to do with this. She has lactose intolerance so no dairy. She east a pretty balance diet meat, fruit, veg, collegen. Her magnesium is low but she is so prone to diarrhea that she can’t tolerate much. It tends to go right through her.
She took the Gabapentin for pelvic pain which after doing a Microgen DX test we found out the pelvic pain was due to a UTI from ecoli. She is now in antibiotics and hopefully this will clear up the pelvic pain. She is really down with all these health problems.

 

[baron]

She has had blood test for kidney function and her doctor has listened to her heart. All looks very good. I was wondering if the calcium channel blocker effects could have something to do with this. She has lactose intolerance so no dairy. She east a pretty balance diet meat, fruit, veg, collegen. Her magnesium is low but she is so prone to diarrhea that she can’t tolerate much. It tends to go right through her.
She took the Gabapentin for pelvic pain which after doing a Microgen DX test we found out the pelvic pain was due to a UTI from ecoli. She is now in antibiotics and hopefully this will clear up the pelvic pain. She is really down with all these health problems.

Good to hear that everything was fine with the heart and kidneys.

Maybe she can't ingest alot of magnesium because her calcium is too low, there should be about a 2:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium. The body excretes the excess magnesium to be in balance with the low calcium to prevent any irregular heart function.

 

[Ganne]

Good to hear that everything was fine with the heart and kidneys.

Maybe she can't ingest alot of magnesium because her calcium is too low, there should be about a 2:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium. The body excretes the excess magnesium to be in balance with the low calcium to prevent any irregular heart function.

Her recent blood work shows calcium to be mid to high end range. But we can see how she does adding calcium to her magnesium.

 

[aliml]

Progesterone and Vitamin E have anti-edemic properties.

Vitamin E - Muscle Loss

Does anyone else experience significant thinning while taking vitamin e? It seems to make me rail thin almost every time. I've experimented a few times now and it's consistent.

raypeatforum.com

Gabapentin is a selective blocker of the voltage-dependent calcium channel subunit alpha-2/delta-1 which is encoded by the CACNA2D1 gene.

Nicotine, Progesterone, Tetracycline and Tamoxifen (anti-estrogen) increase the expression of CACNA2D1 protein.
https://rgd.mcw.edu/rgdweb/report/gene/main.html?id=731942

Gabapentin has also been shown to bind and activate the adenosine A1 receptor which is encoded by the ADORA1 gene. Activation of the adenosine A1 receptor may cause edema.

Caffeine and Theophylline decrease the activity of ADORA1 protein.
https://rgd.mcw.edu/rgdweb/report/gene/main.html?id=730817

 

[Ganne]

I am not sure I understand all the studies above. The idea of progesterone is interesting. We have noticed that actually she get some relief from her edema in the first part of her cycle and also the day before it. It seems to me that is when progesterone is low not high.

 

[aliml]

I am not sure I understand all the studies above. The idea of progesterone is interesting.

Nicotine, progesterone, tetracycline, caffeine, theophylline, anti-estrogens (such as vitamin E),... may reduce Gabapentin-induced edema.

Thiamine deficiency may also cause peripheral edema. I think, compounds that activate bitter taste receptors, such as thiamine hcl, are diuretics!

Showing Flavour bitter - FooDB

foodb.ca

Anti-Edemics

Diuretics

3,5,8-Megastigmatrien-7-one 7-hydroxycoumarin Alpha-Amyrin Amyrin Arbutin Aucubin Beta-Caryophyllene Beta-damascenone Beta-Sitosterol Boldine Caryophyllene Catechin Coniferaldehyde Coumarin Curcumin Dehydrocurdione Diosmin Eugenol Faradiol Gamma-sitosterol Gentianine Germacrone Glucose Linalool Lupeol Papain Piperine Proanthocyanidins Procyanidin Quercitrin Resveratrol Rutin Scopoletin Sinapaldehyde Syringaldehyde Taraxasterol

1,5-Dicaffeoylquinic acid (+/-)-2-Hydroxypiperitone Adenine Apigenin Apiole Arbutin Arctiin Arginine Aucubin Avicularin Betaine Hydrochloride (HCl) Boldine Caffeine Calcium Carpaine Cynarine Diosmin Dopamine Fenugreekine Friedelin Glycine Isopimpinellin Isoquercitrin Kaempferol L-Asparagine L-Citrulline L-DOPA Levodopa Luteolin Magnesium Mannitol Myricetin Myristicin Pimpinellin Plumbagin Potassium Quercitrin Robinin Sorbitol Theobromine Theophylline Xylitol

14 Best Natural Diuretic Herbs & Foods for Water Retention - SelfDecode Supplements

You’ll be surprised to see how many foods and herbs are natural diuretics. They can help you combat water retention, detox, lower blood pressure, and more.

supplements.selfdecode.com

 

[Ganne]

Thanks, her doctor gave her Lasik when this first started. It made her feel so bad we went to the er. She had low sodium and they had to hang a bag. She never had low sodium before. Gabapentin is a very dangerous drug there are many Facebook groups and websites with people going through the same thing as my daughter. Most had these symptoms when they stopped the drug, she got the edema on the drug. Another interesting thing about her case is even in high doses of the drug she was never impaired. She could work and drive some people are ‘high’ on one 300 capsule. She only weighs 115 lbs so it is not weight related….. it is driving me crazy trying to figure this out. Some people who deal in Drug withdrawal say Gabapentin lowers GABA and others say it raises it. So we could be dealing with that or the calcium channels could be still blocked or even damaged.
The Impact of Gabapentin Administration on Brain GABA and Glutamate Concentrations: A 7T 1H-MRS Study
Brain GABA and Glutamate Concentrations Following Chronic Gabapentin Administration: A Convenience Sample Studied During Early Abstinence From Alcohol
Here are a few opinions. The last is from a sufferer who limited glutamate. Oddly my daughter feels better with as much magnesium as she can hold and collegen powder three to four times a day. Thanks for all help.

 

[aliml]

She had low sodium and they had to hang a bag. She never had low sodium before.

Gabapentin has been reported to cause hyponatremia (low sodium). This drug may also induce syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone secretion (SIADH).

"Syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone secretion (SIADH) is characterized by excessive unsuppressible release of antidiuretic hormone (ADH) either from the posterior pituitary gland, or an abnormal non-pituitary source. Unsuppressed ADH causes an unrelenting increase in solute-free water being returned by the tubules of the kidney to the venous circulation."

Syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone secretion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Conditions associated with high vasopressin:

• Stress [46, 47]
• Pain [50]
• High blood pressure [51]
• Major depression [46]
• Diabetes (Type 2)
• Low Cortisol [52]
• Low sodium / Hyponatremia / Syndrome of Inappropriate Diuretic Hormone (SIADH) secretion
  • Unsteady gait [53]
  • impaired memory [54]
• Low Thyroid [55]
• Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome [56]
• Kidney Stones – Vasopressin causes our urine to be less dilute.
• High Blood Sugar – Insulin can cause the release of vasopressin [57]. Vasopressin causes insulin release [1].
• Low BUN (Blood Urea Nitrogen) levels [58]
• Low Uric Acid levels particularly in SIADH [59]
• High CRH – Vasopressin releases CRH [34]
• Anorexia – vasopressin suppresses appetite [60, 61]

What is Vasopressin (ADH)? Functions & Health Implications - SelfHacked

Vasopressin (ADH) is a hormone that controls water balance, promoted as a "smart drug". Learn the roles & health implications.

selfhacked.com

Progesterone reduces blood vasopressin levels.

Effect of progesterone therapy on arginine vasopressin and atrial natriuretic factor in premenstrual syndrome - PubMed

Luteal phase fluid retention may be due to a relative deficiency of ANF and a lower threshold for AVP release. The symptomatic improvement produced by progesterone treatment may be due to its stimulation of ANF and inhibition of AVP release or synthesis.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Ganne]

I have experience with glutamate issues and my dear MIL was addicted to gabapentin for the last few years of her life. It caused the exact same issues you described if she missed a dose.

Have you had mineral testing done? I’m curious where selenium and potassium are on the range?

And with glutamate, have you looked into a REID diet? It’s not peat, but I found eliminating all of those high glutamate foods, then balancing them back in one at a time, solved so many issues for me

I know this is an old post but I was wondering what caused your issues with glutamate? We have just started the Reid diet. My daughter is still a mess. It is like she stopped the drug yesterday, but it has been 1.5 years. She should have come off the drug slower. Do you feel like you got control
Of your glutamate issue?