Help Me To Design A Starting Plan (macros, Foods)

[Cirion]

TL;DR
Newbie, what would you suggest me to start off on to keep things simple, and refine later with approximately TDEE of 3500 calories? 6'0'' male 200 lbs currently roughly 15% BF.

I like to keep an open mind, so I'd like to give this whole Peating thing a try. I have tried so many different diets with little luck. Have actually tried super high carb / low fat in the past and at first it was pretty good but ultimately it failed, fatigued, moody etc. I suspect I did a few things wrong though to make it start out good and bomb later.

I eat around 3500 cal a day these days. Just a starting point, I'm aware this amount may go up or down depending on metabolism changes.

As of this moment, I'm doing something like 50-80g fat a day, 400-500g carb a day, 150g protein a day. Not much luck though. Don't feel all that great, fatigue, moody, need lots of sleep. However, this was me kinda doing my own thing before attempting actual Peat diet, and a lot of the carbs have been from starch, not sugar.

Fruit, honey, low fat milk, OJ, gelatin, eggs, cheese, carrots, coconut oil - these seem to be common staples from what I see here. Which fruit in particular? Some are heavy in pesticides (like apples), no? Why fruit juice instead of actual fruit, which will have more nutrition per calorie?

I understand avoiding PUFA, but from what I've read, the recommendation is to limit MUFA as well? But if that's the case, why is butter recommended? Butter is pure MUFA. Coconut oil has obvious benefits that I think most people (non-Peat included) understand. My impression was that the body prefers to burn MUFA over SFA for fuel, so the idea that SFA is better than MUFA is new to me (I know that SFA is good though).

Recommendation here seems to limit or even basically eliminate fat (eliminating fat seems like a red flag to me, any extremist diet seems wrong to me...) so I think I'd prefer to do around the 50g fat. Even 2% milk has some fat anyway, and whole eggs are going to net you some fat as well.

Eliminating muscle meats (does this include red meats like grass fed beef I like to eat a lot?) basically means you're only gonna get protein from cheese and milk and the occasional egg right? Seems like a lot of milk to get 150 g protein lol.

Also what about all this other stuff I hear frequently, aspirin for one example, vitamin E for another, and it seems like a lot of other creams and whatnot are pushed around here as well?

Caffeine seems to be heavily pushed around here as well. I don't think it's a good idea for me. I'm actually trying to wean off caffeine. It feels good in the moment, but I always crash after - (I always get sugar crashes too! Does this get better over time?) In addition, I end up building a "Need" for it, to where I literally cannot function without it, cannot get out of bed without it. Is it really a good idea to promote dependence on a drug? Maybe once my metabolism is not awful I might be able to tolerate it, but right now not so sure, lol. Actually, one of my main problems with caffeine, is that it seriously impacts my ability to sleep. Bad sleep = bad shape the next day = endless vicious cycle with caffeine and constantly elevated adrenaline = adrenal burnout

 

[wesheilman]

Hey Cirion, welcome to the Forum. I'll give you my suggestions for a starter diet; that is, specifically something to get you into Peating, not something to represent a refined, super-Peat diet.

First of all, how often can you eat per day? I eat five times, and the need to eat that often is a criticism of Peating (though Peat himself, I believe, eats three meals, with cafe con leche drunk in between throughout the day.). But I will give you suggestions for five times per day, since that it what I know. My calories are slightly lower than yours, and I am 6'2", 175.

600 calories per meal, 80g carbs per meal, 20-40g protein per meal, and 12-20g fat per meal. I find that the more dairy I eat, the less protein I need, and I fill in the extra calories with fat.

Try to get nutrient-dense foods to meet those quotas: liver, oysters, eggs, OJ, fruit in general, potatoes and the like, milk, cheese. Supplement with the less nutrient-dense (sugar, honey, Mexican coke, ice cream) to get the needed calories. Sugar is preferred over starch because of the presence of fructose in sugar, and it's easier utilization by people who have their glucose-utilization at all compromised; and because starch can leave undigested glucose to reach the gut, where it is converted into endotoxin by gut bacteria.

Red meat is fine, but Peat recommends a Tbs. collagen along with muscle meat meals, to balance the amino acid profile you take in. (It mixes well with milk if you heat it; I add sugar, a little salt, and some cocoa powder.)

Low fat is done in part for the purpose of reducing PUFA stores in the body, for which Vitamin E can be helpful to offset the effects of circulating PUFA. Coconut oil displaces PUFA as well. Peat prefers SFA to PUFA, and never criticizes MUFA as much as PUFA, but still prefers SFA to both. (I believe it has to do with the molecular bonds, and the instability of the molecule created by the level of unsaturation, with PUFA being the most unstable, MUFA less so, and SFA the most stable.)

Don't do caffeine if it doesn't work for you. I do one cup after waking. If you take aspirin, start with one pill (~325mg) per day; Peat says you need to build up a tolerance, and then can increase from there. I personally do one per day.

Carrot salad is for removing bacteria from the gut to limit endotoxin. I have not done much of it; I find it a hassle, and you may want to start with only those things that are easiest at first, to ease into it. Or try it if you want; google "Carrot salad Danny Roddy" and you'll get a video explaining it.

Hope that helps as a starter. I tried on my own for two years with poor results before getting help, and developing a system that worked for me. Hope this begins to work for you

 

[Cirion]

I can eat as frequently as I want really, since I sit at a desk most of the day, just means I'd have to prepare it all ahead of time and pack it. The quantities of OJ and milk and whatnot that often are suggested may be difficult to achieve though... but I can probably pack a good amount of fruit... which fruits are superior choices in particular (what are your staples)? The one pill that's hard for me to swallow is how sugar is better utilized if your metabolism is compromised (if that is so, why do I often crash, or get this really funky "wired but fatigued" feeling after eating sugar? I think that's a reason I briefly tried high sugar in the past but ditched it)

I note you say to have potatoes. Aren't starches detrimental? It looks like the hardcore Peaters have basically little to no starches, with seemingly good results in some cases at least.

How much Vitamin E is good to have? I think I remember a post from Haidut where he ultra-dosed Vitamin E and said this supercharged his thyroid.

What exactly is the purpose and goal of taking aspirin? I think I'm not quite clear on it.

I have to admit, I'm rather lazy with salads as well. I think I'll just start with eating a raw carrot or two every day, rather than stress making a salad.

 

[tara]

Recommendation here seems to limit or even basically eliminate fat (eliminating fat seems like a red flag to me, any extremist diet seems wrong to me...) so I think I'd prefer to do around the 50g fat.

There are some people here who've tried low fat, and may promote it, but I don't think it's Peat's general advice. He seems to favour mixed meals including some fat, and mentions that it seems to be good for digestion.
There are people here who seem to do OK on low fat, and others who definitely don't.

Eliminating muscle meats (does this include red meats like grass fed beef I like to eat a lot?) basically means you're only gonna get protein from cheese and milk and the occasional egg right?

Some here reduce or eliminate muscle meats, others keep some muscle meats and try to balance the amino acids, eg with gelatine/collagen. Excessive tryptophan and methione may be an issue. Gelatine doesn't have those. Personally, milk doesn't agree with me, and I eat meat. Ruminants like sheep and cattle tend to have more saturated fats than non-ruminants that are feed high-PUFA diets. Non-fatty fish obviously has less PUFA than oily fish.
Also, there can be some good quality though low density protein to be gained from fruits, roots, leaves etc.

Also what about all this other stuff I hear frequently, aspirin for one example, vitamin E for another, and it seems like a lot of other creams and whatnot are pushed around here as well?

If your health is good, and you can get your nutritional needs met from food, you may not need any of them.
Vit-E can be useful to help counteract some of the effects of PUFA, including residual stored PUFA if you have previously eaten quite a bit of it.
Have you had a go at tracking your body temps and resting heart-rate etc?
You can use cronometer or similar to see roughly which micronutrients you are getting from your food, an whether there are any obvious gaps. Personally, I always seem to crash if I skip veges, especially leafy greens, but there are others here who seem to manage fine without them.

Caffeine seems to be heavily pushed around here as well. I don't think it's a good idea for me. I'm actually trying to wean off caffeine. It feels good in the moment, but I always crash after - (I always get sugar crashes too! Does this get better over time?) In addition, I end up building a "Need" for it, to where I literally cannot function without it, cannot get out of bed without it. Is it really a good idea to promote dependence on a drug? Maybe once my metabolism is not awful I might be able to tolerate it, but right now not so sure, lol. Actually, one of my main problems with caffeine, is that it seriously impacts my ability to sleep. Bad sleep = bad shape the next day = endless vicious cycle with caffeine and constantly elevated adrenaline = adrenal burnout

I haven't found a way to make coffee work for me. Seems great for some people. Personally, I wouldn't push it too hard if you can tell that it's giving you a hard time, and I wouldn't assume that it will get better. You can always do more gentle experiments with it if you want from time to time to see if it serves you.

(I always get sugar crashes too! Does this get better over time?)

Do you mean from refined sucrose or similar? Or from sugars in actual foods, like fruit etc? Personally, I don't seem to do well with much refined sugar (little bits are OK) - much better for me to have the minerals etc that come along with it in more complete foods, like fruits. Some of us seem to do better if a good part of our carbs are starchy foods, rather than all sugars. This is not Peat's advice though. Others here say they do best avoiding starch altogether, which Peat seems to favour for people who have access to good quality fruit etc, and for people with some kinds of gut dysbiosis.
I'd suggest try making changes gradually, pay attention to the effects, and adjust according to what works for you.

I think I'll just start with eating a raw carrot or two every day, rather than stress making a salad.

That should get you most of the benefit.

How much Vitamin E is good to have? I think I remember a post from Haidut where he ultra-dosed Vitamin E and said this supercharged his thyroid.

Small doses should be enough, especially if you are taking it regularly.

 

[Cirion]

There are some people here who've tried low fat, and may promote it, but I don't think it's Peat's general advice. He seems to favour mixed meals including some fat, and mentions that it seems to be good for digestion.
There are people here who seem to do OK on low fat, and others who definitely don't.

I can't seem to really get full without fat. Today I did: 200g protein, 515g carb (from a mix of sweet potato (1 lb) and a fair bit of fruit... 11 oranges, 2 apples), and some carbohydrate powders) and 80g fat from eggs, and coconut oil. This evening was when I had most the fruit, and I got a pretty good boost in mood and energy this evening, though a bit short lived, I guess because I'm pretty insulin resistant and compromised metabolism. I'm also hungry as f*** now lol. Normally if this happened I'd go for more protein and fat, but should this mean I should actually primarily go for more fruit/other carb sources with maybe a little meat/dairy for protein alongside it, perhaps 1-2 tbsp of coconut oil as well? I'm gonna take the sign of increased hunger as a good thing... metabolism increasing hopefully. Perhaps "Banana Girl" (if you don't know her, quick google search will bring her up) was onto something with her 50 (!!!) bananas a day. She supposedly eats that much on some days, and has an incredibly lean physique that most women would be jealous of (and I'm admiring, as a man lol) especially at her age (36). Apparently she is vegan, which I guess means she eats some "no-no" foods on Peat (like grains), but I think for the most part, Vegan and Peat have many similarities.... Especially if said vegan eats mountains of fruit a day lol.

Some here reduce or eliminate muscle meats, others keep some muscle meats and try to balance the amino acids, eg with gelatine/collagen. Excessive tryptophan and methione may be an issue. Gelatine doesn't have those. Personally, milk doesn't agree with me, and I eat meat. Ruminants like sheep and cattle tend to have more saturated fats than non-ruminants that are feed high-PUFA diets. Non-fatty fish obviously has less PUFA than oily fish.
Also, there can be some good quality though low density protein to be gained from fruits, roots, leaves etc.

Gotcha

If your health is good, and you can get your nutritional needs met from food, you may not need any of them.
Vit-E can be useful to help counteract some of the effects of PUFA, including residual stored PUFA if you have previously eaten quite a bit of it.
Have you had a go at tracking your body temps and resting heart-rate etc?
You can use cronometer or similar to see roughly which micronutrients you are getting from your food, an whether there are any obvious gaps. Personally, I always seem to crash if I skip veges, especially leafy greens, but there are others here who seem to manage fine without them.

I will look into cronometer maybe post some of my days food intakes to critique. I need to find my thermometer lol I'd prefer not to buy another one! I will try to get some of this data tracked in the near future. My understanding was that Peat doesn't like greens because of endotoxins, but will sometimes make a supplement by boiling the leaves and throwing the leaves away. One thing about greens is the fiber I suppose? I can see how it can be easy to be low in fiber on Peat'ing if you skip grains and veggies, though fruits will give you a good supply of fiber I would think.

I haven't found a way to make coffee work for me. Seems great for some people. Personally, I wouldn't push it too hard if you can tell that it's giving you a hard time, and I wouldn't assume that it will get better. You can always do more gentle experiments with it if you want from time to time to see if it serves you.

Yeah, coffee can be nice... but I think getting basic nutrition down first is probably more important. Coffee, because it does seem to boost metabolism, might be a great addition later down the road, but not at this point in time...

Do you mean from refined sucrose or similar? Or from sugars in actual foods, like fruit etc? Personally, I don't seem to do well with much refined sugar (little bits are OK) - much better for me to have the minerals etc that come along with it in more complete foods, like fruits. Some of us seem to do better if a good part of our carbs are starchy foods, rather than all sugars. This is not Peat's advice though. Others here say they do best avoiding starch altogether, which Peat seems to favour for people who have access to good quality fruit etc, and for people with some kinds of gut dysbiosis.
I'd suggest try making changes gradually, pay attention to the effects, and adjust according to what works for you.

I'm thinking starch is not for me. The energy I get from it is OK generally, but going through indicators like libido, mood, etc, eh... Like I had a very large carbohydrate meal (2 cups of white rice) last evening, but it did nothing for me for libido/mood or anything. Sugar seems to do a better job of that... so, maybe that's proof of what Peat says.

Obviously I'm gonna need more than fruit this evening to judge. I'll have to hit up the grocery store tomorrow to stock up on fruit and milk and cheese and whatnot, to really start this process properly. Doing my best to remain hopeful, even though almost all ways of eating in the past have failed me! I've seen some impressive success stories around here, so it's gotta have something going for it. I do recall that some of my strongest boost in sex drive were from morning smoothies with lots of fruit sugars in them when I used to religiously do those type of smoothies... Maybe I can be like Banana Girl and put like 10 bananas in a smoothie haha...

 

[Cirion]

Day 1 (full first day) of starting to incorporate PEATING:
SO far today, 1 TbSP coconut oil, 1 scoop of whey, 100g of carb from powder, & 3 apples at breakfast... 1 lb of grass fed beef, 6 apples split between lunch / mid afternoon. Probably should have saved some of my fat for dinner, as I'm already at fairly high fat for the day for most PEATers. Oh well. I'll probably just have more fruit & milk or something @ dinner. Maybe a little veggies, just for satiety.

Things to note... my ability to hold glucose is noticeably compromised. I'll feel pretty good for a little bit after eating the fruit, and then feel a mild depression/energy loss soon after. I guess that just means I need to pound even more fruit/sugar down. I'm quite hungry a lot too so there is that as well. I'm hungry as I type this and no more food argh! Definitely needed more than 9 apples lol... My calcium to phosphorus ratio is kinda low today, due to no dairy to eat (need to grocery shop). Also apples may not be the most ideal due to pesticides, but it was the only fruit I had on hand. Do I need to have extra fruit in the morning to start my day? Or is spacing it out equally sufficient? I'm certain my energy problems are glucose problems now, I was convinced after I woke up kinda groggy (as usual), but as soon as I had fruit bam, instant energy, almost like coffee (so that's nice).

So I guess the reason why I always wake up tired is not just because of less than optimal sleep in general, but also because my glucose stores are completely trashed? I went to bed a little hungry last night. My hunger seems insatiable from fruit... it immediately goes through my system and then glucose stores tank pretty fast...

I will say in the Starch vs. Sugar debate... Starch doesn't really seem to supercharge me like fruit does. Though, my glucose "High" with fruit seems very short lived. I guess that just means I am insulin resistant from too much fat intake / body fat stores / PUFA stores in particular

Gonna try out the Vitamin E supplement sold here to maybe help with PUFA/IR symptoms and whatnot...

Lol maybe I'll grab several bunches of bananas and try a "Peat" version of the "Banana Girl" diet (I'll be eating dairy and coconut oil etc. on top of bananas, not JUST bananas lol)

 

[Cirion]

Updates:

Eating high saturated fats, moderate protein, super high carb (mostly sugar)

Decent energy, have to load on sugar very frequently (basically grazing on sugar all day long), hungry a LOT. Sounds like this is normal at first though. I think I'm gonna try to limit my fat intake to allow for damage control with bodyfat gain. What I plan to do is save all/most of my fat macros for the evening before bed (this will allow me to save fat for when I need it, to help keep me satiated during the sleeping hours) and also at least half of my protein macros for the evening as well for a similar reason. Without limiting my fat intake it's easy for me to get 150+g fat in one day. While it's almost all saturated fats, it's still probably going to my bodyfat stores given that my carbs are also insanely high (500-700g).

I will only have liquid calories in the morning/early afternoon, and switch to solid foods later - I found out that liquid calories just do not get me through the night.

 

[Taotatoes]

Updates:

Eating high saturated fats, moderate protein, super high carb (mostly sugar)

Decent energy, have to load on sugar very frequently (basically grazing on sugar all day long), hungry a LOT. Sounds like this is normal at first though. I think I'm gonna try to limit my fat intake to allow for damage control with bodyfat gain. What I plan to do is save all/most of my fat macros for the evening before bed (this will allow me to save fat for when I need it, to help keep me satiated during the sleeping hours) and also at least half of my protein macros for the evening as well for a similar reason. Without limiting my fat intake it's easy for me to get 150+g fat in one day. While it's almost all saturated fats, it's still probably going to my bodyfat stores given that my carbs are also insanely high (500-700g).

I will only have liquid calories in the morning/early afternoon, and switch to solid foods later - I found out that liquid calories just do not get me through the night.

Curious about what your activity level is like at the moment? I am a metabolically healthy 35 y/o female (5'8 large bone structure, 23% bf, 155 lbs) and need approximately 2700 calories per day to not feel starved or experience any bonks in energy. On workout and higher activity days I easily get away with 3200 without weight gain. Have you ever tried an activity tracker?

 

[Arnold Grape]

Curious about what your activity level is like at the moment? I am a metabolically healthy 35 y/o female (5'8 large bone structure, 23% bf, 155 lbs) and need approximately 2700 calories per day to not feel starved or experience any bonks in energy. On workout and higher activity days I easily get away with 3200 without weight gain. Have you ever tried an activity tracker?

Always tough to do with little or no starch, which OP is talking about doing. Are you just pouring sugar into your drinks or having a more sound meal plan? It always seems sensible to talk about specific menu items in lieu of saying I eat X amount of calories with these posts.

 

[Taotatoes]

Always tough to do with little or no starch, which OP is talking about doing. Are you just pouring sugar into your drinks or having a more sound meal plan? It always seems sensible to talk about specific menu items in lieu of saying I eat X amount of calories with these posts.

Agreed. I guess I could have been more detailed. Lol. I actually eat more of my calories than I drink and I think that helps with my satiation (I have a huge appetite but believe it comes intuitively based on my activity). I mostly rely on dried fruit, fresh fruit, rice pudding, low fat fish and low lactose low fat dairy with honey added to it for the bulk of my calories.

 

[Arnold Grape]

Just curious, is all: When I count my calories, despite eating all day, including large portions of ice cream at night, I'm struggling to hit 3,000. If you are in USA and have a Trader Joe's nearby, try their Rice Pudding -- it's fairly clean and it tastes great.

 

[Taotatoes]

Just curious, is all: When I count my calories, despite eating all day, including large portions of ice cream at night, I'm struggling to hit 3,000. If you are in USA and have a Trader Joe's nearby, try their Rice Pudding -- it's fairly clean and it tastes great.

I'm in Canada but if I had a Trader Joes I'd be all over that!!! I've recently gotten into making my own (because its hella cheap) with raisins boiled in... ohhhh my!! So good. Lol.

 

[Cirion]

Haha, I haven't been doing Peat that long but I already realize how ignorant I was starting off! I'm definitely further along since I made this post. Still have lots of kinks to work out though. My main thing lately is trying to bring down my overall Fernstrom ratio (Tryptophane / LNAA) where LNAA = Leucine + Isoleucine + Tyrosine + Phenolynine (sp?) + Valine because I think I have a "serotonin" belly (bloat) at the moment.

Curious about what your activity level is like at the moment? I am a metabolically healthy 35 y/o female (5'8 large bone structure, 23% bf, 155 lbs) and need approximately 2700 calories per day to not feel starved or experience any bonks in energy. On workout and higher activity days I easily get away with 3200 without weight gain. Have you ever tried an activity tracker?

I'm not extremely active, at least with intense exercise, but I try to get walks out in the sun as frequently as I can, at least 1 hr on weekends (I'd do more, but I sunburn easily lol). I do lift weights 3x a week for about 45-60 mins. 31 y/o male 6'0'' ~210-215 lbs currently. As of late I often get 4500-5000 calories a day to feel sated. Not bad @ 3200. I always cringe when I hear women only eating like 1500 calories. Way too low. I just use cronometer to track nutrition these days. Don't really worry about how much I burn on days I have more activity and just eat to hunger.

 

[danishispsychic]

What testing have you had done?