Help. I Am Taking Copper And Still Have Deficiency!

Lucas

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Hello. I did a blood test for copper and my results was:

72,7 mcg/dl Ref: 70 – 140

This blood test was on February of this year.

So, since the results was low, I became to supplement copper chelate, 2 mg, from Swanson.

I take it whit a glass of Milk together whit desiccated liver capsules and a low release potassium supplement.

My last test done on 18 April showed 68,4 mcg/dl Ref: 70 – 140.

So now I have a deficiency.

I have fatigue, pale skin, sag skin (very deep nasolabial folds), gray beard, low body temperature, hypothyroidism, high ferritin, joint pain.

I don’t supplement zinc, and my ceruloplasmin is below the reference range.

Is milk an antagonist of copper absorption??
 

ddjd

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You've been taking the wrong type of copper. Search mitosynergy copper
 

sunraiser

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Supplementing copper will not do anything until you resolve your ceruoloplasmin issues (it’ll probably make you worse as you’ll use up vitamin C (I believe, though perhaps there are other mechanisms and I could be wrong) to deal with the unbound copper.

It’s clear your deficiency stems from more than just inadequate copper intake as you should at least have seen a small improvement from supplementing copper.

You’ll need to look at your diet and understand what’s missing as a ceruloplasmin cofactor - you need copper, vitamin a, iron, vitamin c. That’s off the top of my head, please research it! Often it can actually be zinc that’s low - you need adequate zinc to sufficiently transport vitamin A in the body. I believe magnesium is also involved.

This axis is such a balance, I genuinely would try without supplements for a bit. Get sources of all the above in your diet and see what you end up craving maybe. Lamb liver is a great option as it has a better zinc to copper ratio and can be less unbalancing than calves liver, plus lots of vitamin A (again, eat to craving and don’t overcook or it’ll taste horrible!)
 

sunraiser

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Also, if your copper chelate is copper glyicnate I have definitely seen people get results from it (when copper intake is their only issue), so I don’t think it’s a bad type
 

Mito

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Low serum copper and low ceruloplasmin can paradoxically indicate copper toxicity. Wilson’s disease (copper toxicity disease) is very rare but serum copper and ceruloplasmin are usually both low.
 

TeslaFan

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yeah, you may or may not be deficient in the mineral. For example, your liver may be full of it, but proteins built around Cu are low. Copper is almost entirely used only as part of a complex protein (enzyme) and as ionic mineral is it just a free radical. Liver can release some free Cu during infections in order to destroy pathogens with Cu. Other than that, it is part of proteins. Carnosine (Alanine-Histidine) can help in protein deficiency case. Few other cofactors, too (vitamin E for example).
 

Ella

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Low serum copper and low ceruloplasmin can paradoxically indicate copper toxicity. Wilson’s disease (copper toxicity disease) is very rare but serum copper and ceruloplasmin are usually both low.

Excellent advice @Mito. Yes, Wilson's disease should be ruled out as giving more copper can be deadly. Perhaps a eye examination may provide a non-invasive means on whether we are managing copper properly. A healthy liver is mandatory for the proper management of copper. The following paper presents cases other than Wilson's Disease where copper management is deranged. Wilson's is rare however, obesity, T2D and fatty liver are rampant today, in comparison to cases in the 1970s when the following paper was published.

https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(77)80038-3/abstract?code=ygast-site
 

sunraiser

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Low serum copper and low ceruloplasmin can paradoxically indicate copper toxicity. Wilson’s disease (copper toxicity disease) is very rare but serum copper and ceruloplasmin are usually both low.

With ceruloplasmin that low then any copper ingested would be unbound aka toxic. Vitamin C, citric acid, and I’m sure lots of other unknown ways can be used to deal with this in the body.

I don’t believe low ceruloplasmin would be a compensatory measure when actual bound copper is replete because it wouldn’t aid the body at all. Though perhaps it could?

You can be copper toxic and copper deficient at the same time. I believe Wilson’s disease is this state. Regardless, working on the cofactors through food is a good place to start. Please don’t worry about copper toxicity, your body will naturally deal with it with a robust diet once your ceruloplasmin starts to rise. Eat the foods, see what seems appealing or what you crave each day. That’s where I’d start.

See what feels right to you!
 
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Lucas

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Thanks’ for the answers!

I think I don’t have the Wilson disease; I don’t have the eye symptom prevalent on that disease.

My zinc improved from 85 mcg/dl to 104 mcg/dl (ref: 70 – 120 ) just by eating red meat.

From copper, maybe adding tablespoons of cocoa powder to my diet will improve it?

I will try copper glycinate and copper sebacate to see how I fell.
 

sunraiser

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Thanks’ for the answers!

I think I don’t have the Wilson disease; I don’t have the eye symptom prevalent on that disease.

My zinc improved from 85 mcg/dl to 104 mcg/dl (ref: 70 – 120 ) just by eating red meat.

From copper, maybe adding tablespoons of cocoa powder to my diet will improve it?

I will try copper glycinate and copper sebacate to see how I fell.


I sprinkle organic cacao powder on my vanilla ice cream or make hot chocolate with it..
According to my hair mineral analysis, I have copper toxicity, yet my hair colour substantially faded. Ray Peat recommended me some sea food like shrimps etc. as a source of copper. His email to me:

"Copper is the catalyst that forms
the
> melanin. Shell fish such as
shrimp, crab, mussels, scallops,
> squid, etc., are good sources of
copper. Cooked mushrooms
> are another source. Too much iron
in the diet (also too much
> molybdenum or sulfur) has a
competitive effect that can
> interfere with copper’s
effects."

By all means see how you get on with another copper source but it’s important you understand ceruloplasmin in order to improve copper levels, both of you.

“Copper toxic” is a scare mongering term used by alt health practitioners to drum up business. Anyone with low ceruloplasmin will have unbound copper... the body will expel it naturally as health improves and ceruloplasmin is restored.

Just eating more copper sometimes helps, but it won’t do anything without iron, vitamin c, a healthier liver, vitamin A. Everything is interconnected. Eat as varied a diet as possible and see if you’re missing anything big via chronometer. If you try a good source of the missing nutrient and it tastes good, include it.
 

sunraiser

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Wow @sunraiser !!
I guess a nutrient dense diet helps to meet those vitamins. I think my liver health is very poor, even though I try to improve it. It's because I still have yellowish skin on my face and hands. I do agree with you re those alternative health practitioners. I do take zinc 50mg atm though which is a very high dose.

You’ll have to use your own judgement but I do not believe taking zinc is a good idea right now. Fading or greying hair colour can indicate copper deficiency, and unless you were pounding down liver or crab/squid it doesn’t seem likely that you’ve simply been eating too much copper. The hair mineral test may just show you’re expelling the copper you’re eating because it’s not being bound by ceruloplasmin in your body and therefore can’t be used.

Beef mince is quite a cheap zinc source, maybe eat that or steak when you crave them. If the zinc truly makes you feel better then keep monitoring it, but it’s quite risky to take high dose zinc.

With regard to liver health, eating proteins early in the day and most calories early can be a big help. Our livers cleanse when we sleep and seem to be based on circadian rhythm (in my experience, not necessarily a fact). Just light carbs and fats at dinner. Don’t starve yourself obviously.

Exercise is the next thing as long as you have energy. Multi muscle group exercises like goblet squats, press ups, pull ups and dips can be done at home. Also anything that involves bouncing or jumping ((even running on the spot or jumping) can further support your lymph system. If your lymph system is working well your liver won’t have to take the slack.
 
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Lucas

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I eat 5 eggs yolk a day. Is this enough for vitamin A?

I have high ferritin (303) but my serum iron is not high and my saturation is normal, at 33%.
 

sunraiser

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I eat 5 eggs yolk a day. Is this enough for vitamin A?

I have high ferritin (303) but my serum iron is not high and my saturation is normal, at 33%.

5 egg yolks is probably fine as far as vit A goes, unless you’re heavily supplementing vitamin D. Do you eat greens or have a significant source of vitamin K1 or k2? You need that for vitamin A to be used.

Your ferritin will be high until you resolve your ceruloplasmin as it’s also important in iron metabolism - the body balances iron and copper.

What vitamin C foods do you eat?
 

dreamcatcher

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5 egg yolks is probably fine as far as vit A goes, unless you’re heavily supplementing vitamin D. Do you eat greens or have a significant source of vitamin K1 or k2? You need that for vitamin A to be used.

Your ferritin will be high until you resolve your ceruloplasmin as it’s also important in iron metabolism - the body balances iron and copper.

What vitamin C foods do you eat?
My ferritin was always lower than normal. I was diagnosed with alopecia secondary to iron deficiency. But ferrous sulphate never helped. I don't believe in that theory, anyway.
 

sunraiser

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M

My ferritin was always lower than normal. I was diagnosed with alopecia secondary to iron deficiency. But ferrous sulphate never helped. I don't believe in that theory, anyway.

Then it sounds like iron metabolism might be the limiting factor in ceruloplasmin production for you. Or it might not, if the zinc was genuinely making you feel good.

I don’t know too much about improving iron metabolism, I know folate is involved though and that’s notoriously low on a ray peat type diet. Iron is demonised but it’s also necessary.
 

Ella

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5 egg yolks every single day, is way too much. Are you drinking coffee or milk with them. I would be trying to bring ferritin down to below 100 as you are heading into dangerous territory.

As for Vitamin A; you would get a little over just over 4000 IU which is fine, however I would look to get my Vitamin A from a diverse range of foods, especially if the eggs are not from your chickens.

Chickens are supplemented with DL-methionine to stop them pecking each other and to stop them losing their feathers. They turn canabalistic if they don't have adequate levels of this sulphur amino acid.

Amino acids can exist in two forms referred to as D- or L-isomers. Methionine in tissues typically occurs in the L-form. The D-form is not biologically active, poultry however, unlike humans have the ability to utilize both D- and L- forms. Methionine supplementation is typically in the form of dry D,L-methionine which is 99% pure, or as liquid D,L-methionine hydroxy analog-free acid which is the equivalent of 88% methionine after the conversion of the analog to the biologically active form.

All commercially produced eggs whether from caged, organic or pastured will be supplemented. This inconvenient truth has been a tightly guarded secret and the organic growers have been frantically investigating a more natural means of supplementing methionine. In my country the organic growers have been trialling a herbal extract of methionine. However, if you have been on this forum long enough, you will understand that methionine is the predominant amino acid that we should be minimising if we are aiming for a disease-free, long-lived life.
 
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Lucas

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5 egg yolks is probably fine as far as vit A goes, unless you’re heavily supplementing vitamin D. Do you eat greens or have a significant source of vitamin K1 or k2? You need that for vitamin A to be used.

Your ferritin will be high until you resolve your ceruloplasmin as it’s also important in iron metabolism - the body balances iron and copper.

What vitamin C foods do you eat?


I take 5.000 iu of Vitamin D3 every day and 5mg of K2-MK4 every other day. Where I live is to cloudy. I need this level of vitamin D3 to keep my blood at the 50-60 ng/ml.

I don’t eat any vitamin C. Sometimes a tangerine one to 3 days a week.
 
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Lucas

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5 egg yolks every single day, is way too much. Are you drinking coffee or milk with them. I would be trying to bring ferritin down to below 100 as you are heading into dangerous territory.

As for Vitamin A; you would get a little over just over 4000 IU which is fine, however I would look to get my Vitamin A from a diverse range of foods, especially if the eggs are not from your chickens.

Chickens are supplemented with DL-methionine to stop them pecking each other and to stop them losing their feathers. They turn canabalistic if they don't have adequate levels of this sulphur amino acid.

Amino acids can exist in two forms referred to as D- or L-isomers. Methionine in tissues typically occurs in the L-form. The D-form is not biologically active, poultry however, unlike humans have the ability to utilize both D- and L- forms. Methionine supplementation is typically in the form of dry D,L-methionine which is 99% pure, or as liquid D,L-methionine hydroxy analog-free acid which is the equivalent of 88% methionine after the conversion of the analog to the biologically active form.

All commercially produced eggs whether from caged, organic or pastured will be supplemented. This inconvenient truth has been a tightly guarded secret and the organic growers have been frantically investigating a more natural means of supplementing methionine. In my country the organic growers have been trialling a herbal extract of methionine. However, if you have been on this forum long enough, you will understand that methionine is the predominant amino acid that we should be minimising if we are aiming for a disease-free, long-lived life.

Milk and coffee whit the yolks are because of the iron on eggs?

I balance methionine whit glycine, 20 grams every day.
 

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