Heart Pounding Palpitations From Thyroid Supplement Log

[narouz]

Yes, sedated. As opposed to my always on stressed out mode.

Very nice, Charlie.
I wanna be sedated!

 

[charlie]

Yes, me too. So I took another 1000mg.

 

[kiran]

Taurine is awesome, yes. I found taurine way back during my supplement days, long before Ray Peat. I think it worked especially well because I used to be vegetarian.

Charlie, Is this also the case with you?

 

[charlie]

No, I never did go the vegetarian route.

This some good stuff though!

 

[Ray-Z]

Glad the taurine is working for you, Charlie!

Well done, Combie.

 

[narouz]

Peat on taurine:

"In the context of the excitatory actions of estrogen, and the inhibitory action of glycine, it would be reasonable to think of glycine as one of the antiestrogenic substances. Another type of amino acid, taurine, is structurally similar to glycine (and to beta amino propanoic acid, and to GABA), and it can be thought of as antiestrogenic in this context. The specific kinds of excitation produced by estrogen that relate to reproduction occur against a background of very generalized cellular excitation, that includes increased sensitivity of sensory nerves, increased activity of motor nerves, changes in the EEG, and, if the estrogen effect is very high, epilepsy, tetany, or psychosis."--Ray Peat

from "Gelatin, stress, longevity"

 

[narouz]

"Taurine has cured my chronic constipation. I take about 4000mg spread out throughout the day. I've also read that taurine supplementation is helpful for healing the liver and kidneys. Google search yourself and see.
Hope this helps someone."

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1176743

 

[narouz]

"Today is day 2 of being off dilantin totally. I think 7gms of taurine per day is enough for me. First time I have been prescription free in 36 years. Can't wait to see what my gums look like in 6 months. I haven't noticed any side effects with taurine and only positive benefits such as constipation clearing up. I am nutrient deficient and not prescription deficient."

from http://www.healthboards.com/boards/epilepsy/323132-taurine-natural-alternative-2.html

 

[narouz]

I wonder if your HHB, Charlie, might be "PACs" or Pre Atrial Contractions...?

"George Eby, Austin, Texas
[email protected]

Notice: This page is out of date. My current research is a new medical journal paper titled: "Elimination of cardiac arrhythmias using oral taurine with L-arginine: hypothesis for nitric oxide stabilization of the sinus node with case histories". Please access this new page here. Also please consider large doses of Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids.

This page is about the extraordinary power, actually the extraordinary NATURAL power of an amino acid called taurine to effectively prevent cardiac arrhythmias. In my case, I was having pre atrial contractions (PACs) each five beats, totally 25,000 abnormal pre atrial contraction (PACs) per day. These pre atrial contractions (PACs) started suddenly in 1998 and continued more or less unabated until I started to regularly add taurine to my diet.

Pre atrial contractions (PACs) are nerve racking and lead to poor sleep habits and irritability. As far as I can determine the article below by Chazov et al. is one of the few articles ever published to demonstrate the extraordinary benefit of taurine in preventing and treating cardiac arrhythmias such as pre atrial contractions (PACs) and premature ventricular contractions (PVCs). I knew from experience that magnesium taurate helped reduce my PACs from one premature beat each 5 seconds to one each 8 to 10 seconds. I had attributed this action to magnesium, and not taurate (taurine), but to more completely eliminate pre atrial contractions with much larger doses of taurine than is possible with magnesium taurate was a really significant observation.

What is going on here? Very briefly, in aging, taurine production by the liver can decline resulting in the "little old man / little old lady syndrome" known and clearly evinced by the mental image invoked. Low taurine production problems appear simple to alleviate with supplemental dietary taurine, which is available at nearly all health food stores, pharmacies and grocery stores in the United States and elsewhere. This is why the "energy drink" Red Bull gives people energy (not the caffeine), it restores their taurine levels to youthful levels, consequently they perform youthfully. A very simple solution to curing the "little old man / little old lady syndrome."

The top strip of the following ECG shows the effect of 12 grams taurine daily in eliminating the pre atrial contractions (PACs) shown in the lower strip (before administration of taurine), clearly showing the early beats are no longer a major issue, but they do occur from time to time always in the familiar every fifth to tenth beat pattern."

http://george-eby-research.com/html/taurine.html

This from Wikipedia on Pre Atrial Contractions:

Premature atrial contractions (PACs), also known as atrial premature complexes (APC) or atrial premature beats (APB), are a common cardiac arrhythmia characterized by premature heartbeats originating in the atria. While the sinoatrial node typically regulates the heartbeat during normal sinus rhythm, PACs occur when another region of the atria depolarizes before the sinoatrial node and thus triggers a premature heartbeat. The exact cause of PACs is unclear; while several predisposing conditions exist, PACs commonly occur in healthy young and elderly people without heart disease, and by themselves are not considered an abnormal finding.[1][2] PACs are often completely asymptomatic and may be noted only with Holter monitoring, but occasionally they cause a sensation of palpitations. In most cases, no treatment other than reassurance is needed for PACs, although medications such as beta blockers can reduce the frequency of symptomatic PACs.

 

[chris]

Taurine looks like something quite interesting to play around with. Where did you order yours from Charlie?

I quite like the look of this one,

http://www.nutrabio.com/Products/taurin ... N5JlXfNseU

Claims to be pharmaceutical grade with no fillers, additives...

 

[charlie]

Glad the taurine is working for you, Charlie!

Well done, Combie.

Peat on taurine:

"In the context of the excitatory actions of estrogen, and the inhibitory action of glycine, it would be reasonable to think of glycine as one of the antiestrogenic substances. Another type of amino acid, taurine, is structurally similar to glycine (and to beta amino propanoic acid, and to GABA), and it can be thought of as antiestrogenic in this context. The specific kinds of excitation produced by estrogen that relate to reproduction occur against a background of very generalized cellular excitation, that includes increased sensitivity of sensory nerves, increased activity of motor nerves, changes in the EEG, and, if the estrogen effect is very high, epilepsy, tetany, or psychosis."--Ray Peat

from "Gelatin, stress, longevity"

Excellent! I think I will have another gram.

"Taurine has cured my chronic constipation. I take about 4000mg spread out throughout the day. I've also read that taurine supplementation is helpful for healing the liver and kidneys. Google search yourself and see.
Hope this helps someone."

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1176743

This is incredible. If it fixes the constipation, wow just wow.

"Today is day 2 of being off dilantin totally. I think 7gms of taurine per day is enough for me. First time I have been prescription free in 36 years. Can't wait to see what my gums look like in 6 months. I haven't noticed any side effects with taurine and only positive benefits such as constipation clearing up. I am nutrient deficient and not prescription deficient."

from http://www.healthboards.com/boards/epilepsy/323132-taurine-natural-alternative-2.html

Bring on the taurine! I took 3 grams today, just took one before I am going to bed. Will see if going to sleep is easier.

I wonder if your HHB, Charlie, might be "PACs" or Pre Atrial Contractions...?

"George Eby, Austin, Texas
[email protected]<script type="text/javascript">
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Notice: This page is out of date. My current research is a new medical journal paper titled: "Elimination of cardiac arrhythmias using oral taurine with L-arginine: hypothesis for nitric oxide stabilization of the sinus node with case histories". Please access this new page here. Also please consider large doses of Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids.

This page is about the extraordinary power, actually the extraordinary NATURAL power of an amino acid called taurine to effectively prevent cardiac arrhythmias. In my case, I was having pre atrial contractions (PACs) each five beats, totally 25,000 abnormal pre atrial contraction (PACs) per day. These pre atrial contractions (PACs) started suddenly in 1998 and continued more or less unabated until I started to regularly add taurine to my diet.

Pre atrial contractions (PACs) are nerve racking and lead to poor sleep habits and irritability. As far as I can determine the article below by Chazov et al. is one of the few articles ever published to demonstrate the extraordinary benefit of taurine in preventing and treating cardiac arrhythmias such as pre atrial contractions (PACs) and premature ventricular contractions (PVCs). I knew from experience that magnesium taurate helped reduce my PACs from one premature beat each 5 seconds to one each 8 to 10 seconds. I had attributed this action to magnesium, and not taurate (taurine), but to more completely eliminate pre atrial contractions with much larger doses of taurine than is possible with magnesium taurate was a really significant observation.

What is going on here? Very briefly, in aging, taurine production by the liver can decline resulting in the "little old man / little old lady syndrome" known and clearly evinced by the mental image invoked. Low taurine production problems appear simple to alleviate with supplemental dietary taurine, which is available at nearly all health food stores, pharmacies and grocery stores in the United States and elsewhere. This is why the "energy drink" Red Bull gives people energy (not the caffeine), it restores their taurine levels to youthful levels, consequently they perform youthfully. A very simple solution to curing the "little old man / little old lady syndrome."

The top strip of the following ECG shows the effect of 12 grams taurine daily in eliminating the pre atrial contractions (PACs) shown in the lower strip (before administration of taurine), clearly showing the early beats are no longer a major issue, but they do occur from time to time always in the familiar every fifth to tenth beat pattern."

http://george-eby-research.com/html/taurine.html

This from Wikipedia on Pre Atrial Contractions:

Premature atrial contractions (PACs), also known as atrial premature complexes (APC) or atrial premature beats (APB), are a common cardiac arrhythmia characterized by premature heartbeats originating in the atria. While the sinoatrial node typically regulates the heartbeat during normal sinus rhythm, PACs occur when another region of the atria depolarizes before the sinoatrial node and thus triggers a premature heartbeat. The exact cause of PACs is unclear; while several predisposing conditions exist, PACs commonly occur in healthy young and elderly people without heart disease, and by themselves are not considered an abnormal finding.[1][2] PACs are often completely asymptomatic and may be noted only with Holter monitoring, but occasionally they cause a sensation of palpitations. In most cases, no treatment other than reassurance is needed for PACs, although medications such as beta blockers can reduce the frequency of symptomatic PACs.

I dunno narouz. I was monitoring the beats and there didnt really seem to be any skips or anything like that.

Taurine looks like something quite interesting to play around with. Where did you order yours from Charlie?

I quite like the look of this one,

http://www.nutrabio.com/Products/taurin ... N5JlXfNseU

Claims to be pharmaceutical grade with no fillers, additives...

Chris, great find! I ordered from Beyond A Century, but I think I will order this next time to get the pharmaceutical grade.

 

[charlie]

Ok, so this palpitation stuff started after I started supplementing thyroid. And now that I took the taurine and it made things better, I am 100% positive that the palpitations are from excess adrenaline. Thyroid supplementing makes the body more sensitive to adrenaline. So it would seem this adrenaline stuff is a good thing that's happening although a little uncomfortable. They say it takes time for the body to down regulate. And I saw one person say when this adrenaline is happening something big is changing in the body.

Do I really want to quell this adrenaline and then the body does not down regulate the adrenaline because the taurine is doing it instead?

 

[narouz]

Charlie-

You may be right,
but I would just note that I think you're making a leap,
an assumption
about the causation being adrenaline.

Not that everything valid has to come from Peat,
but all we have from him on taurine is that it is
anti-estrogenic in some contexts.

With estrogen can come a whole cascade of bad guys,
like serotonin, cortisol, aldesterone, and...yes...adrenaline.
As I say, you may be right,
but if I were you I wouldn't get locked into that one hypothesis.
I would just prefer to think of your adrenaline angle as a tentative hypothesis at this point.

Also, with taurine, there are statements that it regulates blood pressure
and also that it helps or cures pre arterial contractions.
With those viewpoints there is little knowledge of the mechanism.
Could be adrenaline.
But maybe not.

One detail which wouldn't seem to fall in line with your, as I call it, tentative adrenaline hypothesis
is your pulses.
Wouldn't adrenaline raise your pulse rate (and maybe temps and blood pressures)?
In your episodes of HHP you haven't seen that.

And one other nagging angle is The Thrush Angle
(sounds like an episode in "The Man from U.N.C.L.E., right!?).
I'm a bit obsessed with it at the moment,
since I had or have it, and so do/did you.
We both took antibiotics.
We both got thrush.
As I wondered to you:
it would seem logical, unfortunately, to suspect that the mouth
is not the only place Candida (thrush in the mouth) would populate in an absence of other competing,
healthy bacteria.
What if we have an overgrowth of candida in our bowels?
And note what some claim results from candida infestation:

"When a person has Candida infection, the first major organ invaded by Candida is the liver. After months to years of continuing invasion into deeper tissues, Candida causes the liver to malfunction, either through direct poisoning or through interruption of the liver’s normal processes. The result is excess levels of toxin (normal metabolites that should have been cleared out and/or direct toxins produced by Candida itself) in the bloodstream, especially evident between 1 and 3 am when it appears the liver goes through a natural nightly change. These toxins are generally irritating to the nervous system, causing irritability, anxiety and panic, depression, racing or hard-beating heart, and of course insomnia. This explains why the mind is filled with thoughts and won’t turn off in the middle of the night. If this symptom is not present, then the insomnia may have a different cause."

http://www.candidamd.com/candida/insomnia.html

Now...I too am leery of candida claims, as is Peat.
But Peat doesn't say candida doesn't exist.
He just says its dangers and pervasiveness are way exaggerated.
So...this would also be a tentative hypothesis, for me.
When I had/have the thrush, I had insomnia.
And Peat seems to think candida can be easily resolved with a little Flowers of Sulphur.
Which you have!
And which I'm eager to hear reports on!!

 

[charlie]

Well my stress hormones were definitely off the chart. When I am stressed out, the seborrheic dermatitis (SB) always flares up. And this adrenaline response is definitely stressing my body because the SB is on the rampage. After taking taurine yesterday, my SB is much better today. Btw, haven't taken any taurine today, drank my coffee, drank some coke, and not much adrenaline at all, just slightly.

Maybe this is estrogenic stuff happening, dang nabbit I dont know.

I think I do want to take some flowers of sulfur internally though. Just want to know exactly how to take it. With food, how much, what do I do?

The sulfur has cleared up the thrush a lot, but it hasn't entirely knocked it out yet. I am just touching it to my tongue like Ray Peat suggested. I really like the taste and smell of it though. Brings back some old memories.

 

[charlie]

Aaaaaah. Taurine for the win.

After my afternoon coffee today the palpitations came back so I dosed up some taurine and am on my way to sedation nation.

After some further thought and some communications with Clint I still believe that I simply have taken too much thyroid and it will take some time for things too work out and settle down. Once I get sorted out here, I will start back up on the nutri-meds with an extremely low dose.

 

[Ray-Z]

Sorry for the threadjack. Just responding to some earlier questions from Narouz.

Ray-Z,

Interesting stuff on your personal thyroid supplementation.

How much T3 do you typically take per day, and how do you split the doses up?

Have you ever been diagnosed with hypo, and had lab tests? If so, do you remember your TSH?

What dosage and brand of NDT were you doing when you had the ill effects? You listed some, Ray-Z,
but did you ever have any heart-related effects, like Charlie's HHP or my sweating episodes?
Did you ever have labs during the time of the ill-effects, and if so do you remember what
your rT3 was and your TSH?

How are your temps and pulses doing now?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've talked with a successful T3-only user!

Narouz:

I describe my thyroid regimen and results here: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=950

I fired my MDs a few years ago (thanks for all that prednisone, docs!) and thus have no relevant labs.

The varieties of NDT I used included bovine "Raw Thyroid" from New Zealand (perhaps similar to Nutri-Meds), Thiroyd, and perhaps one other, the name of which escapes me at the moment. These supplements may very well be fine products. I'm not necessarily criticizing them; just observing that my hypothyroid symptoms worsened on them, most likely for the reasons described in the Peat quote about excess T4 I included a few pages back.

I ran heavily for years pre-Peat. During this time, I noticed that my heart occasionally beat very hard or stopped momentarily. I am not sure whether these phenomena occur more or less often now. It does not surprise me in the least that all those marathoners die of heart attacks.

 

[narouz]

Sorry for the threadjack. Just responding to some earlier questions from Narouz.

Ray-Z,

Interesting stuff on your personal thyroid supplementation.

How much T3 do you typically take per day, and how do you split the doses up?

Have you ever been diagnosed with hypo, and had lab tests? If so, do you remember your TSH?

What dosage and brand of NDT were you doing when you had the ill effects? You listed some, Ray-Z,
but did you ever have any heart-related effects, like Charlie's HHP or my sweating episodes?
Did you ever have labs during the time of the ill-effects, and if so do you remember what
your rT3 was and your TSH?

How are your temps and pulses doing now?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've talked with a successful T3-only user!

Narouz:

I describe my thyroid regimen and results here: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=950

I fired my MDs a few years ago (thanks for all that prednisone, docs!) and thus have no relevant labs.

The varieties of NDT I used included bovine "Raw Thyroid" from New Zealand (perhaps similar to Nutri-Meds), Thiroyd, and perhaps one other, the name of which escapes me at the moment. These supplements may very well be fine products. I'm not necessarily criticizing them; just observing that my hypothyroid symptoms worsened on them, most likely for the reasons described in the Peat quote about excess T4 I included a few pages back.

I ran heavily for years pre-Peat. During this time, I noticed that my heart occasionally beat very hard or stopped momentarily. I am not sure whether these phenomena occur more or less often now. It does not surprise me in the least that all those marathoners die of heart attacks.

Thanks, Ray-Z.
I'm sortuv giving your angle a whirl the last few days.
I have a little cytomel left over from the past.

I had high rT3 at my last lab test,
and my slightly "alternative" doc thought that meant I was "over-medicated" or "over-corrected"
with my NDT.
And I was taking a pretty high dose--3&1/2 grains or 210mgs.

So I'm experimenting--maybe along your lines--now.
One reason I was inclined to do was
I've noticed lately, how even when I forget to take my thyroid until early afternoon,
that my pulses and temps still look pretty good--or about the say as when I do take thyroid.

After a few days of backing way down on my NDT,
like half as much or less--like around 1&1/2 grains--
and adding in like 2.5 micrograms of T3 like 3 times per day...
...so far my temps have been staying pretty good.
They would seem to be as good/high as when I was taking the higher doses of NDT,
and maybe even better--especially into the evening and night.

Don't know quite what to conclude, yet.
It's only been about 3 days.
Maybe my stored T4 will gradually run out
and I will start to see my temps/pulses decline.

It's hard for me to consider myself on solid ground by trying to judge how I feel.
After about 5 years of being hypothyroid and/or generally out-of-whack
from the Peatian perspectives,
I kinda think I don't have a great handle on what it feels like to feel good,
if you know what I mean.

(I too plead for mercy on the charge of thread-jacking;
it would seemed to be such an ingrained, uncorrectable character trait,
that I do it without even realizing it...or being able to stop myself! )

 

[charlie]

I made the plunge and ordered up some T3.

 

[charlie]

After studying some more it truly seems like I have this reverse T3 thing going on. I hopefully will get tested for it next week. Seems like its pretty serious and I need to get on T3 soon as possible to feel better. Just put the order in today, 2 weeks till delivery at least.

 

[Combie]

After studying some more it truly seems like I have this reverse T3 thing going on. I hopefully will get tested for it next week. Seems like its pretty serious and I need to get on T3 soon as possible to feel better. Just put the order in today, 2 weeks till delivery at least.

I found reducing the dose to small crumbs quite effective, should keep u going til T3 arrives. Wish i had some T3 on the way boohoo...