Heart Pounding Palpitations From Thyroid Supplement Log

Ray-Z

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narouz said:
Just because Charlie's heart is beating hard
(or he perceives it that way),
shouldn't lead me to conclude, necessarily,
that that points to metabolic excess.

I agree.

narouz said:
So...hmmm....
Maybe Charlie's HHP could be caused by thyroid hormone insufficiency,
and...
that could possibly be caused by too much proportion of T4 in his combo NDT supplement.

Peat never communicated that possible wrinkle to you, did he Charlie?

So Ray-Z...are you a T3 nibbler?

Yes. I sometimes take a bit of NDT before I lift weights, but otherwise I only use T3.

After bad reactions to thyroid supplements with varying proportions of T4 and T3, I responded well to T3 alone. In principle, I agree that it would make sense for me to experiment with replacing some of my T3 with T4 (T3 alone strikes me as unnecessarily risky), but I have been lazy and have just stuck with my current routine...
 

kettlebell

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It will be interesting to see if your rT3 is high Charlie because, and this is another angle to consider, if it is high this could be suggesting that you are effectively converting the T4 to T3 whether its is from the supplement/previously accumulated/excess stored in your thyroid.

From that you could read that potentially
1. Your liver is now doing what it is meant to (You are eating a Ray Peat inspired diet after all) - Converting T4 to T3 effectively
2. You have plenty of stored T4 bodily and in your Thyroid which is rapidly being converted to T3
3. You are adding additional T4 and T3 via supplement

Therefore you are producing rT3 as you have too much T3 to counteract and end up back at square one - Adrenaline.

Of course all of this is guesswork but you may not need a Thyroid supplement in any form at all for a while whilst your thyroid ejects a high amount of T4 that has built up over years of hypothyroidism. Now things are healing it is clearing the excess and as your liver may be function better its converting to T3 BUT in addition to the supplement creates to much hence potential rT3.

It might all be a part of the healing process while things try to normalise.

Food for thought maybe.
 
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charlie

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Had to edit my previous waking temp that I registered a few posts back. My waking temp is 97.2 it is NOT 98.2 that was a typo. But after my first meal it does rise pretty quickly. I did edit that post so it does reflect the correct temp now.

I will answer the rest of the replies a little later on today.
 

narouz

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Ray-Z said:
I have experienced the anti-metabolic effect of excess T4 Peat describes. The effect can occur not only in people taking pure T4 but also in some people taking NDT whose livers cannot convert T4 to T3 at an adequate pace. After taking a dose of NDT, I typically experienced a momentary uptick in metabolism from the T3 in NDT and then got slammed by the excess T4, experiencing fatigue, difficulty breathing, hyperventilation, freezing extremities, and so forth. And as I increased my dose of NDT, these hypothyroid symptoms worsened.

Ray-Z,

Interesting stuff on your personal thyroid supplementation.

How much T3 do you typically take per day, and how do you split the doses up?

Have you ever been diagnosed with hypo, and had lab tests? If so, do you remember your TSH?

What dosage and brand of NDT were you doing when you had the ill effects? You listed some, Ray-Z,
but did you ever have any heart-related effects, like Charlie's HHP or my sweating episodes?
Did you ever have labs during the time of the ill-effects, and if so do you remember what
your rT3 was and your TSH?

How are your temps and pulses doing now?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've talked with a successful T3-only user!
 
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charlie

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narouz said:
Would you say the HHP is associated with anxiety?
Can you say which comes first, which my be the cause and which the effect?
Does the anxiety precede the pounding,
or does the pounding make you anxious?


Hmmm, I do notice if I start to think about it, it sometimes will start it up, or make it worse.

Anxiety before the pounding, I think.

It seems like its adrenaline because at night when I have it and go to sleep, I slam right back out of sleep somtimes, not fun.

Ray-Z said:
Sounds potentially important to me, although I'm not sure about the relationship between arhythmia and Charlie's pounding heart.

I have been listening for arythmia and have not noticed it.



I respectfully dissent from the assertion -- also made elsewhere in this forum -- that Ray Peat doesn't think excess T4 can slow the metabolism. Peat's article, "Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud" (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/thyroid.shtml), includes the following passage.

Ray Peat said:
The serum's high ratio of T4 to T3 is a pitifully poor argument to justify the use of thyroxine instead of a product that resembles the proportion of these substances secreted by a healthy thyroid gland, or maintained inside cells. About 30 years ago, when many people still thought of thyroxine as "the thryoid hormone," someone was making the argument that "the thyroid hormone" must work exclusively as an activator of genes, since most of the organ slices he tested didn't increase their oxygen consumption when it was added. In fact, the addition of thyroxine to brain slices suppressed their respiration by 6% during the experiment. Since most T3 is produced from T4 in the liver, not in the brain, I think that experiment had great significance, despite the ignorant interpretation of the author. An excess of thyroxine [i.e. T4], in a tissue that doesn't convert it rapidly to T3, has an antithyroid action. (See Goumaz, et al, 1987.) This happens in many women who are given thyroxine; as their dose is increased, their symptoms get worse.

I have experienced the anti-metabolic effect of excess T4 Peat describes. The effect can occur not only in people taking pure T4 but also in some people taking NDT whose livers cannot convert T4 to T3 at an adequate pace. After taking a dose of NDT, I typically experienced a momentary uptick in metabolism from the T3 in NDT and then got slammed by the excess T4, experiencing fatigue, difficulty breathing, hyperventilation, freezing extremities, and so forth. And as I increased my dose of NDT, these hypothyroid symptoms worsened.

I'm not commenting on the rest of the paragraph I quoted from you, Narouz. I am just criticizing the claim about Peat's views.

Edited for clarity.

Hmmmmmm, something for me to think about. In the beginning, when the palpitations were really bad my temp would drop and I would feel pretty crappy. Although, now, my temps stay up and all I experience it seems is the palpitations.

narouz said:
What I meant to express was that Peat seems to think combo T4/T3 works well for most--yes?
Whereas he has reservations about T3-only therapy.
And definitely thinks T4-only is a loser.

Now, back to Charlie's situation with the HHP.
He's been using a NDT, combo T4/T3.
I would think that Peat might think that Charlie might well experiment
with increasing his T3 proportion,
although I doubt Peat would see that as a remedy to Charlie's HHP.
And--now I could be wrong!--I wouldn't think that Peat would think
that Charlie should be doing a straight T3--would you?
He might not be flat-out against it, but...I don't think it would be his recommendation,
in the context of Charlie's HHP.

Here's why:
Charlie's HHP symptoms would seem to me to point toward possible intermittent metabolic excess,
not metabolic sluggishness.
And it is metabolic sluggishness that will often occur with (straight) T4 therapy,
or possibly, in some, with a combo supplement too high in T4.
So I'm skeptical of a hypothesis that Charlie's HHP is caused by too much T4.

Sorry if my expressions were sluggish.
I'm a bit sleep deprived and travel-weary. :oops:

Metabolic excess, too much thyroid supplement. Yeh, that makes sense and thats why I stopped taking it today and will continue to monitor myself closely. If I start sliding backwards health wise, I will then take a 1/16 th of a dose of thiroyd. From reading and listening to Dr. Dach's stuff, it seems like I simply got too much thyroid going on.

But like you said in the next post, what if its from too little thyroid? Uggggh. So many variable. I havent talked to Peat about this much narouz so I do not have much to offer from him in personal communication about this.
kettlebell said:
It will be interesting to see if your rT3 is high Charlie because, and this is another angle to consider, if it is high this could be suggesting that you are effectively converting the T4 to T3 whether its is from the supplement/previously accumulated/excess stored in your thyroid.

From that you could read that potentially
1. Your liver is now doing what it is meant to (You are eating a Ray Peat inspired diet after all) - Converting T4 to T3 effectively
2. You have plenty of stored T4 bodily and in your Thyroid which is rapidly being converted to T3
3. You are adding additional T4 and T3 via supplement

Therefore you are producing rT3 as you have too much T3 to counteract and end up back at square one - Adrenaline.

Of course all of this is guesswork but you may not need a Thyroid supplement in any form at all for a while whilst your thyroid ejects a high amount of T4 that has built up over years of hypothyroidism. Now things are healing it is clearing the excess and as your liver may be function better its converting to T3 BUT in addition to the supplement creates to much hence potential rT3.

It might all be a part of the healing process while things try to normalise.

Food for thought maybe.

OMG, my head is about to explode!!!! :lol:

Dr's appointment in 1.5 weeks so we shall see how it goes.

Ok, here is something to ponder. Last time I stopped taking the thyroid the palpitations did stop, but then they started back up a couple weeks later.
 
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charlie

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Just took a 1000mg of taurine, see if that helps.
 
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charlie

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Holy cow, the taurine is working. I cant even think myself into an adrenaline fit anymore right now. And, it feels like my body is sinking, and feel high even. Holy cow. What does this mean?
 

narouz

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Charlie said:
Holy cow, the taurine is working. I cant even think myself into an adrenaline fit anymore right now. And, it feels like my body is sinking, and feel high even. Holy cow. What does this mean?

Come on, Charlie.
All you have to do is imagine a big, drooling, Nazi-like, filthy, lousy Authoritarian!

(kidding aside--that's pretty cool!)
 
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charlie

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Nope narouz, it wont work. This has completely knocked the adrenaline down. Its freaking incredible. Starting to research it all now.

My temp is staying up, so thats good. I was wondering if the temp would go down, but it hasnt as of yet. And, I feel, so, heavy, I dunno, its weird. But wow, it works!!!!

So, is this adrenaline from a taurine deficiency? Or from my body trying to keep my temps up? Or, from too much thyroid? Or, from me being overly stressed out and sick all the time? Or....?
 
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Combie, I love you man! :lol:
 

narouz

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Charlie said:
Nope narouz, it wont work. This has completely knocked the adrenaline down. Its freaking incredible. Starting to research it all now.

My temp is staying up, so thats good. I was wondering if the temp would go down, but it hasnt as of yet. And, I feel, so, heavy, I dunno, its weird. But wow, it works!!!!

So, is this adrenaline from a taurine deficiency? Or from my body trying to keep my temps up? Or, from too much thyroid? Or, from me being overly stressed out and sick all the time? Or....?

Looks like we get Taurine mainly from meat and fish.
And, as I recall, you have been eating very little meat...don't know how much fish.
Not much in (cow) milk.

I think we synthesize it from cysteine and methionine.
I know Peat foods de-emphasize cysteine.
Not sure about methionine.

I gotta try it!
 
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charlie

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Not much fish either lately. I have picked the meat back up a bit though because I stopped milk to see if that would cure the constipation.

I plan on eating a ton of potatoes tonight to see if that will start up the bowels. :lol:
 
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charlie

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Looks like my temp is dropping, it was 99.2 and is now 98.6.
 

narouz

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So Charlie-

The way you describe the Taurine experience
makes it sound like you got an almost instantaneous and visceral good feeling...
is that right?

Another wrinkle:
Taurine is said to be a vasodilator and maybe to help high blood pressure.
Let's say your blood vessels were constricted during the HHP episodes.
Maybe that is what causes the feeling of HHP.
 

narouz

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Charlie said:
Looks like my temp is dropping, it was 99.2 and is now 98.6.

Track your pulses too.
Often my temp will come down but my pulse will stay good.
How is your blood pressure after the Taurine?
 
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charlie

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narouz said:
So Charlie-

The way you describe the Taurine experience
makes it sound like you got an almost instantaneous and visceral good feeling...
is that right?

Another wrinkle:
Taurine is said to be a vasodilator and maybe to help high blood pressure.
Let's say your blood vessels were constricted during the HHP episodes.
Maybe that is what causes the feeling of HHP.

Yes, within 5 minutes I could feel it. By 30 minutes it had totally enveloped me. A sinking type, high kinda feeling. I want more!!!!! :lol:

Pulse is 67.
Temp is 98.8 right now.
BP is 117 64
 

narouz

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Isn't that a pretty typical BP for you, Charlie?

Funny that you describe the Taurine Effect as
a Sinking, High Feeling.
Normally, "sinking" connotes a low or possibly even depressed feeling.
Tell me a little more about why you say "sinking."
 
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charlie

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Yes, thats a normal BP for me.

Ok, just feeling like, heavy, muscles relaxing so maybe thats the sinking feeling. Just a heaviness feeling. And, I am considerably happier right now. Not feeling so stressed out. Its very profound, not something I have to search for, its right there in my face. I feel like I would also have a much easier time going to sleep if I had to. Actually looking forward to bedtime to night to try it out.
 
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charlie

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Yes, sedated. As opposed to my always on stressed out mode.
 

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