Has Ray Peat Improved On The Paleo Diet?

Discussion in 'Discussing Dietary Models' started by barefooter, Sep 4, 2013.

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  1. barefooter

    barefooter Member

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    The RP diet clearly could not have been eaten by a hunter gatherer, but is it possible it's an improvement on our ancestral diet (whatever that is anyway)? As an example, it's believed by some that cooking is what allowed homo species to acquire more nutrients with less effort and evolve into us modern humans. This is an example of a species moving towards a diet that it did not evolve to eat, yet thriving and improving in ways (ie: brain size). Could it be possible to create a modern diet that further reduces the energy and stress required to meet nutrient needs? If so, could Peat be on to a modern improvement to the age old question of how to feed ourselves? Sure, we didn't evolve with milking or juicing technology, but maybe this is the next great step forward in human nutrition.
     
  2. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

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    Ray Peat and albert szent-gyorgyi believed we evolved out of the jungle because we can no longer make vitamin C.


    The conditions that influence our evolution were created by the organism it self.

    About paleo, I do not see a problem with the diet except that most low carbers are eating mostly muscle meat, which do not contain enough of the things that stimulated metabolism. ( skin, organs, gonads, blood)

    Basically the only mechanism of evolution that paleo seems to side with is natural selection. Though epigenetics are gaining popularity over the mendelian genetics that seem to promote an idea that the survival of the fittest was the only way an organism evolved. Natural Selection seem to have a lot of racial overtones in the early 1900's but it never explain the evolution of an organism itself, traits that organisms acquire can be change over time to meet the demands of the environment, examples are low thyroid, high estrogen serotonin due to social status, work conditions, availability of food, perception of success and failure (dogs that learn helplessness).

    Cellular respiration produces 34 atp and is made in the mitochodria. Glycolysis which is created in the cytoplasm is only produces 4 atp. The keto acids that are produce by burning fat are a high energy product, but the problem is that it breaks down fats that may contain polyunsaturated fats which can damage your liver and supress thyroid production. So by living off fat you still need many other things that the paleo diet does not allow.
     
  3. BingDing

    BingDing Member

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    I never saw much merit to the paleo idea, but I came up with a different theory. When we settled down and domesticated animals, it was the nutritional boost from regular milk and eggs that caused the incredible change of written language, numbers, etc.

    So I think I agree with you, barefooter.
     
  4. OP
    barefooter

    barefooter Member

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    That's very interesting, I never really considered that animal domestication may have spurred an increase in intelligence and the resultant advancements. Do you know if there has been much written about this theory?
     
  5. marcar72

    marcar72 Member

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    Lots of stuff have been written about it. It's basically known as the "Dawn of Civilization". When humans were hunter/gatherers we really didn't have any free time to set around and think or entertain ideas. We were too busy being uprooted and moving around chasing game and whatnot. Once humans learned farming and animal domestication we settled down and formed villages. Division of labor came about and some of the people had the time and privilege to set around and ponder stuff. Just google "Dawn of Civilization" or "Humanities Throughout the Ages"... stuff like that to learn more. :2cents
     
  6. j.

    j. Guest

    The Ray Peat diet was around before paleo existed, so no.
     
  7. OP
    barefooter

    barefooter Member

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    Okay, I'll do some more research. I guess I was more curious specifically if there was much written about how milk may have increased brain size. In a similar vein to how some argue that fire/cooking allowed us to get more nutrients easier and supported an increase in brain size.
     
  8. OP
    barefooter

    barefooter Member

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    I was referring to what our ancestors actually ate prior to the agricultural revolution, rather than the "paleo diet" fad that is currently en vogue. Of course, what we evolved eating can never be known for sure. The basic point I'm interested in is the idea that it seems possible to improve on an animals native diet with various means of food processing such as cooking, juicing, and milking. If you could somehow know for sure precisely what foods we are most adapted to eating, it would be a very good diet, but there's no reason to think it can't be improved upon.
     
  9. j.

    j. Guest

    Peat speculates that during evolution at least at some point people ate mainly animal proteins and fruits, basically a Peat diet (high sat-fat, low PUFA, 80 or more grams of proteins, sugar).
     
  10. Bruv

    Bruv Member

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    So brain size only increased in the parts of the world where people used milk?
     
  11. BingDing

    BingDing Member

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    As far as I know, this is the first time the theory has ever been expressed aloud. It's just my own thinking. Reversing cause and effect and seeing what it looks like is always an interesting thought experiment.

    I've tried to broaden the idea by saying it was the reproductive components of animals because that is the the most nutrient rich stage of life, which milk and eggs are, as opposed to the bodies of prey. Fruits are reproductive components of plants, of course, which supports fruit sugar being good and, probably, not much else.

    The two things that strike me most is that what happened ~10,000 years ago was a huge change, and milking a wild yak has probably been pretty difficult all along.

    And FWIW, I think there is a spiritual element to life that trumps the "brain size" definition of people and other animals that old science uses. When I see a pod of Bottlenose Dolphins leaping out of the water and doing head flips just cause it's fun, I know, for sure, that they didn't get behind on their mortgage payments and the bank foreclosed on them, LOL.
     
  12. 4peatssake

    4peatssake Member

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    So Long and Thanks for All the Fish

    [BBvideo 560,340:cfruefvw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc6aufHz-i0[/BBvideo]
     
  13. Amarsh213

    Amarsh213 Member

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    Everything points to women digging up roots and looking for honey.

    Men searched for high calorie game where the skin joints fat are eaten entirely, combined with tubers/honey.

    So the protein/fat/starch/fire/ hunting was what led contributed development.

    Chewing leaves and picking fruit all day is for gorillas/chimps. Or bird boned rail then fruitarians living in Thailand lol. Humans muscle mass/hormones take a nose following this.

    Chimps are much smarter and moving to ants/hunting/fishing.

    Super low fat/protein in not really suitable anymore.

    A healthy male needs adequate fatty/cartilage meat/ milk some fruit/honey/ occasional potato if feeling depleted.=Ray Peat

    This video pretty much sums it up.
     
  14. commas

    commas Member

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    what makes you think those people are any healthier then the low fat starch populations of okinawa who live to 100 regularly? humans can eat anything and be relatively healthy. Just because hunter gathers eat a certain way out of necessity doesn’t make it optimal. Also just to clarify I don’t think low fat high starch is necessarily the optimal either, just pointing out that your argument is flawed.
     
  15. Amarsh213

    Amarsh213 Member

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    I should have added disclosures. I don’t think it’s optimal at all.

    Vegtarian or Okinawa is likely better long term from a survivability standpoint.

    However short term I believe hormonal/physically active male needs meat/saturated fat.

    The balance seems to be higher protein with adequate greens /fruits

    attenuation of protein consumption is not a recommended dietary strategy for attaining improved acid-base balance. There is scientific evidence supporting the concept that appropriate alkali supplementation in the form of fruits and vegetables serves aptly to neutralize excess [H+ produced from protein metabolism [34,194]. The analysis provided discusses how diet-induced acidosis is a potential upstream and indirect trigger in a multifactorial cascade of molecular events associated with carcinogenesis.There is limited evidence to suggest that dietary acidosis alone is sufficient in increasing cancer risk, but it may function in concert with other factors associated with cancer risk. Obesity or metabolic syndrome, which effect glucocorticoid and adipokine profiles and are often linked to insulin resistance and the pro-inflammatory state, could also serve as significant factors as they are associated with both acidogenic or ‘Western’ diet [34] and cancer risk [3].

    Acid-base balance in the body influences adrenal hormone production of cortisol. When bicarbonate [HCO3- levels are low, the kidneys upregulate glutaminase activity and trigger cortisol production [35-37]." "Dietary induction of acidosis increases serum cortisol concentrations [38]."

    "Cortisol activates the tryptophan metabolism pathway which is carried out by rate-limiting enzymes of tryptophan catabolism, 2,3-dioxygenase (TDO) and indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO). Cortisol directly stimulates TDO activation and may augment IDO activity indirectly through inflammatory cytokine signaling such as interferon gamma [49,50]. Excessive or chronic cortisol production acquired from a ‘Western’ dietary lifestyle could play a role in augmenting the tryptophan metabolism pathway and drive downstream molecular events that promote carcinogenesis."

    "Upregulated cortisol bioactivity driven by diet-induced acidosis may be a factor in metabolic syndrome by promoting insulin resistance. Chronic hyperglucocorticoidism upregulates visceral obesity while reducing insulin sensitivity mainly in visceral adipocytes which appear to be more responsive to cortisol than subcutaneous adipocytes due to higher expression levels of glucocorticoid receptors [58,59]."

    "Acidosis associated insulin resistance through cortisol activity may result in compensatory pancreatic insulin secretion and higher levels of circulating insulin in the serum, a condition known as hyperinsulinemia." As Travisord would say: [sick]
     
  16. commas

    commas Member

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    I see thanks for the clarification. And i agree. It’s hard to analyze populations like okinawa or even hunter gatherer tribes, because often times they grow to a max height of 5’8 ish so their diets don’t transition well to the western populations. it’s hard to tell if it’s just from lower calorie intake from birth or if it has to do with less access to protein, sugar, etc. probably a little of both
     
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