Has Ray ever theorized about morphological and/or "looks development" biochemically & its variances/variables?

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I know in bits and pieces he has talked about things like height, sex, features, bones, etc., but has he ever talked about things like prenatal androgen exposure? Jawline/facial morphology? How the development period predicates morphological factors step-by-step and under what influence or rigidity these very things then refuse to change?

I know he views things from a bioenergetic perspective rather than just the "genes explain it" without actually explaining how genes explain it angle. For example, I have seen weak-jawed men produce strong-jawed men -- and vice-versa. You do not necessarily always "look" or "act" identically to those before you, even if some subtleties do remain.

But has Ray ever actually pondered over developmental variances? I know he'd view a weaker jawline as, say, less energy than a stronger one (presumably because more bone or development would be a staple or theory behind energetic structure, balance and homeostasis). But this doesn't explain a host of things I am concerned like, for example:

How can some people have excellent morphological development (good body structure or build, fat storage, bone positioning, adequate hormonal balances, facial developmental symmetry and balance, etc.) even despite endless downfalls? For example I have seen alcoholic men with no life purpose who look almost like models -- on the flip side you see people here who do "everything right" to try and improve their health, androgenic-ness or feminine-esque, improve their "flaws" both physical & mental & yet still fail or fall short. The best example of explaining bioenergetics, I'd say, would be showing how it can make someone ugly ideally good looking.

I have seen guys who eat low protein/bad diets, no exercise, drink heavily, etc. & have six packs, great symmetry, great bodies -- meanwhile I always have had a horrible body despite even using anabolics, tracking ratios/macros/micros, exercising, trying to lower stress. Yet it seems some people are just born so blessed/live their lives as if NOTHING can affect them while others barely hold on. There is like some universal magic here in how there's a big divide: ugly sufferers vs. privileged beauties who do nothing.

There are low carb people who look fantastic and live just as long ... Just like there are good looking, easy-life happy people with tons of privilege who never lift a finger or try, yet life never hurts them. They always have a good body, enjoy their life, get things easily. Meanwhile some of us spend all of our time trying to fix the very flaws that consume us, like poverty, ugliness, sickness. We want to grow/change so it benefits us -- this's why I think focusing on the OUTSIDE is more important than potential of the INSIDE.

If energy and good structure creates good looks, explain hypothyroid good looking people? Also, explain the still ugly people who corrected their metabolism/thyroid. Again, seen literal alcoholic, non-exercising, poor dieting people (lived with them YEARS) and they keep their fantastic faces and bodies untouched. Again, on the flipside, people like me have to go balls to the wall to look decent, like surgery/cosmetics, sedatives, steroids, endless researching and pondering ... All while you have happy, sexy, easygoing people who eat anything or starve themselves and everything is peachy. I've seen too many good looking guys living like Gods vs. me who was bullied for my looks as a kid.

I have yet to hear an argument from such in thorough from anyone from Peat himself to anyone here. What explains the bioenergetics of good looks and thus better privilege? Universal randomness? Quantifiable patterns that can be replicated? It seems NOBODY can really explain -- or I have yet to witness explain -- what goes in to making one attractive & privileged in life vs. the opposite. I hate the divide and have yet to understand what can be done about ... And I'd assume we would start from bioenergetic principles first, i.e., first start TRULY UNDERSTANDING the pattern of growth/change and how to achieve control over such in some theoretically possible way.
 
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Lilac

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Just before getting into Ray Peat, I read Deep Nutrition, by Catherine Shanahan, M.D. She talked a lot about good looks, nutrition, and birth order. She has photos of famous siblings in the book. If I remember correctly, she said the elder sibling was usually better looking. From the mother's having more stored nutrients? Need to reread it.
 

Demyze

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You could try reading developmental biology textbooks\books. Its actually much more complicated and interesting than your dull interpretation.

Have you ever gotten bloodwork? Broda Barnes had photos of people before and after thyroid therapy that are pretty remarkable. Structure and function are interdependent at every level, energy begets structure
 
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Gânico

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I've been pondering the subject for years, still can't find any solid reason for this phenomenon, besides very strong protective genetics. I personally know some dude, whose mother abused drugs, had worst pufa laden diet during pregnancy, he followed the same path, but somehow he looks very good, nice skull development, etc, and seems healthy overall. Crazy, huh? It seems some people are just gifted.
 
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Howdy, I'm sorry if this doesn't answer your question, but I think a lot of confusion about Peat's stance on genes. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think Peat's skepticism of the role of genes in chronic disease gets confused with a dismissal of the idea that genes are real. There seems to be a certain belief in modern fringe health spaces that ugliness is a disease. Let me be blunt here, it usually isn't. 99% of ugly people aren't ugly because they didnt get enough sugar. It's a combination of genes and the plain old dumb chance. Don't get me wrong, an energy deficiency can certainly be the cause of ugliness. But it is unequivocally not the universal cause.
 

Demyze

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Howdy, I'm sorry if this doesn't answer your question, but I think a lot of confusion about Peat's stance on genes. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think Peat's skepticism of the role of genes in chronic disease gets confused with a dismissal of the idea that genes are real. There seems to be a certain belief in modern fringe health spaces that ugliness is a disease. Let me be blunt here, it usually isn't. 99% of ugly people aren't ugly because they didnt get enough sugar. It's a combination of genes and the plain old dumb chance. Don't get me wrong, an energy deficiency can certainly be the cause of ugliness. But it is unequivocally not the universal cause.
Impressive science you've conducted and presented here
 

Demyze

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why in the world is it controversial to say that genes play a role in an organism's morphology?
Present the evidence that lead you to think that's the case
 

JamesGatz

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Besides the fact that I think that attractive people tend to have higher metabolisms - I think the following is very much worth noting -

1)

the following is related to the evolutionary theories of why men find women with large buttocks attractive::

gallery_nrm_1425656560-sciencebigbutt.jpg



"
Dr. David Lewis, one of the researchers on the study, told Daily Mail that vertebral wedging developed out of necessity. "[It] would have enabled ancestral women to shift their center of mass back over their hips during pregnancy, a time during which there is a dramatic forward shift of their center of mass," he said. "This benefit is critical: Without being able to do this, women would experience a dramatic increase in hip torque, subjecting them to risk of muscular fatigue and injury."

Subsequently, women who developed this vertebral wedging were able to "forage longer" for food during pregnancy and carry multiple pregnancies with a lower risk of injury, which Dr. Lewis says would have been "sexually attractive" to men because of the evolutionary advantage it provided."


symphysis-pubis-dysfunction.jpg


It is also worth noting that larger buttocks leave more room for the pelvis to carry the baby - where a small pelvis is linked to birth complications - (interestingly enough, the forwardness of the pelvis is also heavily linked to facial forwardness) so basically what this theory states is that

if your mother does not have large buttocks/pelvis (intertwined with a forward/attractive face)- you are at a greater chance of developing unhealthily before you are even born

therefore, it would seem likely that if your mother did not have a good body when she was pregnant - you are at greater risk of getting birth complications or being in an enviornment where you can't develop healthily

I do think these 9 months spent in the womb and the overall health of your mother is critical to how you develop before you are born

2)

The next point worth noting is that once you are born - your mother breastfeeding you from her breasts is extremely important for forward growth face development sa a baby - now what's interesting about this is:

Given how exhausting breast-feeding is - it would seem the health of the mother is once again especially important to your development


focial.PNG



But what happens after ages 0-4 ?

Let us picture this scenario:

Child 1 - healthy mother from ages 0-4 - developed a nice face

Child 2 - unhealthy mother and environment 0-4 - developed not such a nice face

What effect does this have on metabolism ?

I do belive Child 1 is much better suited to not only be metabolically healthy but to continue to develop better than Child 2:

A more attractive face means:

airwayorthoimage1.jpg



Easier time breathing and eating

- (expanded upper and lower jaws make for expanded air and food pathways) - I think it's safe to say a person who has a much easier time breathing through the nose and eating would subsequqently have a higher metabolism

The Social Factor

- There is also the social factor - i.e. a male/female who is more attractive tends to be more popular - a healthier social life and plenty of attention from the opposite sex - a very healthy social environment for metabolism and overall health. I think we can all agree metabolism goes a lot deeper than food - someone who grows up being well-received and someone who grows up resented will have significant effects on the health and life-outcome of both



I do believe one's face has one of the strongest effects on metabolism - hence why some people just seem invincible

I think it's difficult (but not impossible) for an attractive person to become ugly even if "eating unhealthy" and vice-versa​
 

Dr. B

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I know in bits and pieces he has talked about things like height, sex, features, bones, etc., but has he ever talked about things like prenatal androgen exposure? Jawline/facial morphology? How the development period predicates morphological factors step-by-step and under what influence or rigidity these very things then refuse to change?

I know he views things from a bioenergetic perspective rather than just the "genes explain it" without actually explaining how genes explain it angle. For example, I have seen weak-jawed men produce strong-jawed men -- and vice-versa. You do not necessarily always "look" or "act" identically to those before you, even if some subtleties do remain.

But has Ray ever actually pondered over developmental variances? I know he'd view a weaker jawline as, say, less energy than a stronger one (presumably because more bone or development would be a staple or theory behind energetic structure, balance and homeostasis). But this doesn't explain a host of things I am concerned like, for example:

How can some people have excellent morphological development (good body structure or build, fat storage, bone positioning, adequate hormonal balances, facial developmental symmetry and balance, etc.) even despite endless downfalls? For example I have seen alcoholic men with no life purpose who look almost like models -- on the flip side you see people here who do "everything right" to try and improve their health, androgenic-ness or feminine-esque, improve their "flaws" both physical & mental & yet still fail or fall short. The best example of explaining bioenergetics, I'd say, would be showing how it can make someone ugly ideally good looking.

I have seen guys who eat low protein/bad diets, no exercise, drink heavily, etc. & have six packs, great symmetry, great bodies -- meanwhile I always have had a horrible body despite even using anabolics, tracking ratios/macros/micros, exercising, trying to lower stress. Yet it seems some people are just born so blessed/live their lives as if NOTHING can affect them while others barely hold on. There is like some universal magic here in how there's a big divide: ugly sufferers vs. privileged beauties who do nothing.

There are low carb people who look fantastic and live just as long ... Just like there are good looking, easy-life happy people with tons of privilege who never lift a finger or try, yet life never hurts them. They always have a good body, enjoy their life, get things easily. Meanwhile some of us spend all of our time trying to fix the very flaws that consume us, like poverty, ugliness, sickness. We want to grow/change so it benefits us -- this's why I think focusing on the OUTSIDE is more important than potential of the INSIDE.

If energy and good structure creates good looks, explain hypothyroid good looking people? Also, explain the still ugly people who corrected their metabolism/thyroid. Again, seen literal alcoholic, non-exercising, poor dieting people (lived with them YEARS) and they keep their fantastic faces and bodies untouched. Again, on the flipside, people like me have to go balls to the wall to look decent, like surgery/cosmetics, sedatives, steroids, endless researching and pondering ... All while you have happy, sexy, easygoing people who eat anything or starve themselves and everything is peachy. I've seen too many good looking guys living like Gods vs. me who was bullied for my looks as a kid.

I have yet to hear an argument from such in thorough from anyone from Peat himself to anyone here. What explains the bioenergetics of good looks and thus better privilege? Universal randomness? Quantifiable patterns that can be replicated? It seems NOBODY can really explain -- or I have yet to witness explain -- what goes in to making one attractive & privileged in life vs. the opposite. I hate the divide and have yet to understand what can be done about ... And I'd assume we would start from bioenergetic principles first, i.e., first start TRULY UNDERSTANDING the pattern of growth/change and how to achieve control over such in some theoretically possible way.
@JamesGatz I asked Ray about facial structure and jawline development and he said calcium/vitamin D are the biggest factors.
I think Ray maybe doesnt mention other things like breastfeeding and prenatal androgen exposure cuz he wants to focus on things we can change and influence? but it is interesting. I think vitamin A and K are also involved in bone modelling. Vitamin E would be involved indirectly/potentially, if PUFA is a problem.
the thing with vitamin D I don't think more is better, whether via sunlight or via oral supplementation. im lighter skinned and more than 2000 IU D3 orally causes issues. whereas calcium if it's all from drinking milk there doesn't seem to be a limit. you dont need to be careful limiting milk (other than calories/excess protein) the way you need to with sunlight and oral D3.
 

JamesGatz

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@JamesGatz I asked Ray about facial structure and jawline development and he said calcium/vitamin D are the biggest factors.
I think Ray maybe doesnt mention other things like breastfeeding and prenatal androgen exposure cuz he wants to focus on things we can change and influence? but it is interesting. I think vitamin A and K are also involved in bone modelling. Vitamin E would be involved indirectly/potentially, if PUFA is a problem.
the thing with vitamin D I don't think more is better, whether via sunlight or via oral supplementation. im lighter skinned and more than 2000 IU D3 orally causes issues. whereas calcium if it's all from drinking milk there doesn't seem to be a limit. you dont need to be careful limiting milk (other than calories/excess protein) the way you need to with sunlight and oral D3.
Yea I agree - too much sunlight stresses me out but being outside at night doesn't bother me as much, personally I've never been able to tolerate vit D supplementation
 

David PS

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Getting too little sunshine is also problematic.
Get

 
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

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