Has Anyone Reversed Their Type II Diabetes Following RP Advice?

[baccheion]

Ray Peat says:

"Diabetics typically have elevated lactate, which shows that glucose doesn’t have a problem getting into their cells, just getting oxidized.” -Ray Peat, PhD

"Glucose is said to not be able to enter the cell in diabetes, but the presence of lactic acid suggest glucose is entering the cell but is being wasted, producing lactate via inefficient and stress promoting glycolytic metabolism."

So, it is incorrect that glucose does not enter the cells. If it did not, lactic acid could not be produced, but as Methylenewhite correctly says, diabetics produce a lot of lactic acid. This is not because of yogurt eating. It is due to a lack of energy to properly oxidize glucose in the cell and produce carbon dioxide. All of it is due to lack of energy. That is why I suggest never eating below what normal people do eat to support health and normal weight.
Intermittent fasting is often touted as Baccheion suggests, however, there is no way that going so long without eating every day is not going to trigger a cortisol rise. The cortisol rise is the trigger for catabolism and blood sugar rise. This practise is predicated on the notion that glucose comes purely from the diet, which is what people thought before the discovery of cortisol and its catabolic effect, which also raises blood glucose. Since experimentation is useful, we tried intermittent fasting, and it did cause a continuous rise in blood glucose.

All of the ways suggested in this thread probably do work, at least temporarily, to lower blood glucose, but the amount of glucose in the blood is not the essence of the problem. As ecstatic hamster says, the high blood glucose is not what is going to hurt you. But it is a warning, a symptom that your metabolism is being rearranged by your brain because you are starving your body.

As this letter, to be copied and given to the doctors of eating disordered patients because doctors are generally uninformed about the cause of the diseases with which their patients are presenting, states:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

"If you treat these symptoms in the absence of getting the patient to re-energize with enough food to rectify the energy deficit, then you will be pushing the living system and overriding its inherent life-saving energy usage reduction mechanisms. 13"

The "high" blood sugar is a result of life-saving adjustments on the part of the body. What happens if we try to override this mechanism instead of addressing the real issue...the starvation. Whether it's Metformin or insulin or any other substance used to force a lower blood sugar, our bodies will respond by raising the glucose even more, if there is the tissue to use. We are trying to override what the body is doing for itself.

Dealing with a "high" blood sugar level is all about your understanding and comfort with the science. Anxiety is the usual outcome of these kinds of diagnoses. Anxiety is the basic reason for an eating disorder. In working with your doctor, you might show him/her this information and suggest a wait and see approach. In the case of even type I diabetes, the pancreas can be regenerated by refeeding. Ray mentions this:

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

"Animals that have been made diabetic with relatively low doses of the poison streptozotocin can recover functional beta-cells spontaneously,"

"In 1857, M. Piorry in Paris and William Budd in Bristol, England, reasoned that if a patient was losing a pound of sugar every day in 10 liters of urine, and was losing weight very rapidly, and had an intense craving for sugar, it would be reasonable to replace some of the lost sugar, simply because the quick weight loss of diabetes invariably led to death. Keeping patients from eating what they craved seemed both cruel and futile.

Budd described another patient, a young man who had become too weak to work and who was losing weight at an extreme rate. Budd's prescription included 8 ounces of white sugar and 4 ounces of honey every day, and again, instead of increasing the amount of glucose in the urine, the amount decreased quickly as the patient began eating almost as much sugar as was being lost initially, and then as the loss of sugar in the urine decreased, the patient gained weight and recovered his strength."

Phases of Recovery From An Eating Disorder Part 5 — The Eating Disorder Institute

"If you are a reader of the The Eating Disorder Institute forums, then you are likely well aware of the fact that many people struggle greatly through the process of healing. Some have even had full-blown medical crises: pancreatitis, diabetic attacks, worsening of preexisting conditions (eczema, allergic reaction, digestive distress, inflammatory responses of one kind or another) and one or two have even faced re-feeding syndrome."

From the same article this truth:

"Swelling (edema) is also a fundamental body defense to protect the body from further damage or infection and to facilitate healing. The process of healing involves natural cell death (apoptosis); reabsorption and excretion; cell growth and division; and cell differentiation and movement. Macrophages are a dedicated cell type responsible for chomping up damaged cells, triggering fluid ingress and retention, and producing insulin-like-growth-factor-1 to speed up cellular growth and division. 5 The side effects of their presence in our bodies are, of course, swelling and pain.

However the absence of macrophages will result in an equivalent absence of restoration and healing. "

The inflamed pancreas is a healing pancreas. You may need your doctor to help you through some symptoms of healing. For example, "refeeding syndrome", in the early days of upping calorie intake, which causes dangerously low phosphorous levels, a concern about the levels of which was mentioned in this thread.

Also, the gut microbiome is mentioned in the above article:

"As with everything else in your body, those friendly bacteria have suffered huge losses thanks to restrictive eating behaviors. The bacterial colonies will be restored with continued re-feeding, but initially their low colony counts due to starvation can mean diarrhea, gas, bloating, poorly digested foods, and also systemic signs that the gut lining is allowing the wrong things through to the bloodstream (skin rashes and itchiness). 14"

As you can see, in each case, addressing the energy intake of your body, addresses all these issues. Ray Peats articles are invaluable in explaining what is going on.

Unless doing something wrong (like not meeting daily caloric/macro requirements or having too small a feeding window), cortisol would be rising with (and due to) HGH. Different.

HGH and other hormones (like DHEA, DHT, etc) protect against and/or balance negative effects of cortisol. Testosterone tends to go up, effectively maintaining a similar testosterone:cortisol ratio. The body is in a "catabolic" state, as emptying of fat stores is classified as catabolic. Autophagy is also catabolic. HGH is catabolic. HGH also supports healing and rejuvenation.

I believe the eating window has to be 4 hours or less for autophagy to truly begin.

A proper/full and fleeting cortisol response is positive, especially during growth.

 

[Birdie]

My fasting blood glucose went from 150 to 120 to 88 over 2 years due to a RP diet (mainly PUFA and iron depletion along with high calcium intake) and 2 aspirins, 5 cups of coffee, and vitamin K daily, and it's probably even lower now. It has been over a year since I checked. I used to get tired after eating even a moderately carb heavy meal but now I can take in 400 g of sugar in one go with no noticeable negative issues at all. Definitely am not recommending doing that, but just wanted to provide an example showing that there has been a clear improvement in my glucose tolerance.

I would recommend reading RPs articles on diabetes, unsaturated oils, iron, aspirin, and caffeine on his website at raypeat.com. Here are a few (#1 and #4 are different even though the title is the same):

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.
Diabetes, scleroderma, oils and hormones
Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context
Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

@Watubi
I just read the first article above, posted by RP in 2012. Interesting !
In the last paragraphs, he goes on about the value of (non-allergenic) honey in the diet.

I noticed somebody advised you to think about iodine. So, on that, I seem to recall Ray's saying to save the iodine for a nuclear incident or some such advice as that.
Our bottles of Iodoral are on the emergency shelf.

 

[baccheion]

@Watubi
I just read the first article above, posted by RP in 2012. Interesting !
In the last paragraphs, he goes on about the value of (non-allergenic) honey in the diet.

I noticed somebody advised you to think about iodine. So, on that, I seem to recall Ray's saying to save the iodine for a nuclear incident or some such advice as that.
Our bottles of Iodoral are on the emergency shelf.

Heh. Megadose vitamin D3 (+ MK-4 + chelated magnesium) will also work.

 

[ecstatichamster]

people eating high sugar low fat often fix their blood sugar problems in a few weeks.

 

[sladerunner69]

OR..... you could just fast every other day or every three days...and cut the rest of all those protocols out. How is your vitamin D? I agree on cutting the iodine. Looks like you are taking too much, drinking too much water too. Skip breakfast at least and forget all those fats. Coffee con leche for breakfast , then eat Peat stuff from 11-5. ( get enough calories , sugar, salt etc ) go to sleep at 9-10 ish. Dump all the supplements and go to a suntan bed or really get some bright sun. Epsom salt baths at night . Wake up later like 9 am. Sleep later to help with high cortisol. Easy work outs like gentle yoga, swimming, walking.

So assuming this is your approach, you combine peating and intermittent fasting? Are you worried at all about ketosis increasing cortisol and stress? If I were to stop eating at 5 I would probably not be able to fall asleep easily. And when I were to wake up, my stress hormones would likely be soaring. I suppose it may be worth a try, though.

 

[baccheion]

So assuming this is your approach, you combine peating and intermittent fasting? Are you worried at all about ketosis increasing cortisol and stress? If I were to stop eating at 5 I would probably not be able to fall asleep easily. And when I were to wake up, my stress hormones would likely be soaring. I suppose it may be worth a try, though.

It takes more than the 16 hours of a typical intermittent fast (eating from noon to 8 pm) to enter into ketosis. Done without a calorie deficit, it shouldn't really cause any problems. Also, daily intermittent fasting isn't what Peat was preaching against; he was referring to longer/sustained fasts.

 

[sladerunner69]

It takes more than the 16 hours of a typical intermittent fast (eating from noon to 8 pm) to enter into ketosis. Done without a calorie deficit, it shouldn't really cause any problems. Also, daily intermittent fasting isn't what Peat was preaching against; he was referring to longer/sustained fasts.

Well, she was recommending to fast every other day, or every 3 days. That would seem more than adequate time to move into ketosis.

 

[Watubi]

The right question is not, how do I cause my blood glucose to fall below 220, Ray Peat diet or something else. The question is, why is my body, a "rational organism" as Ray puts it, is keeping my blood glucose at 220. It is clearly evident, from your description of your diet, why your body is doing this. It is to save your life
The myths around "diabetes" are piled so deep it is impossible to wade through them without a shovel. Let's start digging.
First, "diabetes" is not a disease. What is it? That is explained in this article:

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You — The Eating Disorder Institute

"diabetes mellitus type 2 is not a disease— it’s a risk factor for developing disease. That means that not everyone with diabetes type 2 (treated or untreated) will ever develop any disease state that is more strongly correlated with the presence of type 2 than for those who don’t have the condition."

The above quote states that, whether or not your blood sugar is high, to treat the body to force the glucose down to an arbitrary number, or not, has no relevance to whether you develop a disease. High blood glucose is a symptom of something going on, not the problem, itself.

There are diseases which are supposedly the result of blood glucose being elevated: neuropathies, kidney disease, cardiovascular problems, eye problems. We are given to believe that high sugar levels in our bloodstream cause the breakdown of nerves, veins, and organs. Reading Ray Peat's articles on sugar as posted above by lampofred will help to break down some of those myths about sugar/carbohydrate consumption causing "diabetes". Also, yes, Ray's suggestions to drink milk and orange juice will go a long way toward addressing the real problem the body is dealing with.

The above article is from the Eating Disorder Institute. Hyperglycemia is part and parcel of recovery from an eating disorder as shown here:

Time and Scope: Recovery Is Tough — The Eating Disorder Institute

"as you begin the process of rectifying an imminent disaster by re-feeding: hypoglycemia, pre-diabetes, high cholesterol, hypothyroidism and Hashimoto’s, osteopenia and osteoporosis, acid reflux, dental enamel erosion, infertility, reproductive hormone inadequacies, depression, memory and retention degeneration, gastroparesis, Barrett’s esophagus, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, liver enzyme anomalies, kidney function anomalies, anemia, leukopenia…"

Notice, hypoglycemia, "prediabetes", and kidney function anomalies are mentioned as problems that surface as a person recovers from an eating disorder. The reason is, all these are symptoms of starvation and when one begins to recover from starvation, body systems that have been created to cope with the starvation have to be broken down and new, more resilient systems, have to be rebuilt in their place.
Notice, neuropathies on this list of systems:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

1. Your patient’s complaints will likely include:

- insomnia
- infertility/amenorrhea/oligomenorrhea
- depression
- slow-to-heal injuries from workouts and distance running
- debilitating fatigue
- neuropathies
- pruritus, rashes, skin conditions
- gastrointestinal distress (constipation, GERD, bloating etc.)

No matter the cause of the starvation, real famine, poverty, eating disorder generated starvation (including so-called "binge eating disorder", being, as it is, repeated reaction to repeated starvation), or yo-yo dieting, the symptoms are blood sugar reactions and tissue breakdown in various parts of the body. These are seen together, not because glucose causes these things, but because they are all effects of starvation.
Starvation is eating under your body's energy requirements. Here's what happens when we do:

BMI and Eating Disorders: It’s All About Undereating — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Everyone is equipped with two ways of surviving an energy deficit in the body for a short time: one way is the body will catabolize cells (losing mass and destroying organs) and the other is that it will suppress metabolic function (slow or stop entire biological systems, such as reproductive functions). However, both these ways happen in different proportions in each individual (and the amount of catabolism vs. metabolic suppression may change over time too)."

The catabolism of tissue that occurs as a result of undereating is necessary to keep us alive. Organs and nerves are damaged in the process. The organs that are damaged due to starvation are those whose damage is blamed erroneously on a high level of blood glucose, as seen in the articles below:

Progression Of Retinal Disease Linked To Cell Starvation
Progression of Retinal Disease Linked to Cell Starvation

https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/47/5/564.full.pdf
Slimmer's Paralysis perineal Neuropathy During Weight Reduction

[Renal function in therapeutic starvation (author's transl)]. - PubMed - NCBI
Renal Function in Therapeutic Starvation

The relatively high glucose level is another mechanism ordered by the brain to keep us alive. This paper:

Association of Clinical Symptomatic Hypoglycemia With Cardiovascular Events and Total Mortality in Type 2 Diabetes: A nationwide population-based study

speaks of Symptomatic Relative Hypoglycemia. This is symptoms of LOW blood glucose, hypoglycemia, even when a glucose reading is "normal" or "high".

"in real-world clinical practice, it is intriguing to identify hypoglycemic events based solely on symptoms or a physician’s diagnosis rather than on glucose levels"

The brain selects its optimum glucose level based on availability of glucose in the environment. It is the undereating of calories, especially glucose calories, that prompts the rise in cortisol which initiates the catabolism of body tissue to keep glucose coming in ample supply. The body operates at 200%, preferentially, as explained here:

FAQ — The Eating Disorder Institute

“When we restrict calorie intake the body has a way to manage it, but it costs.
Most biological systems are run to an overdrive level with certain key clamps put on the system to keep it at an optimal state.It is biologically more energy-intensive and risky to try to run a system right to 100% all the time than to run the system to 200% and just use a few hormones or enzymes to clamp it down to 100%.
Our bodies are probably quite literally built to burn off excess energy in our sleep if there are any unneeded excesses.But restrict your calories and now all of the limiting hormones like leptin, ghrelin and insulin and others are left scrambling because you have just dumped the entire metabolic system to well below its 100% functional level. Leptin is a clamping hormone. With nothing to clamp down on, it plummets in our blood streams and this creates a cascade of shut downs throughout the body."

So, while it may seem wasteful to keep a constant stream of glucose from tissue catabolism in our serum and being eliminated in our urine, that is the body's normal way of functioning. The only way to turn this back-up mechanism off is to supply plenty of calories and glucose sources, especially, in our diet.

What is plenty?

Homeodynamic Recovery Method Guidelines Overview — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Eat the minimum intake for your height, age, weight and sex every single day. It’s a minimum intake and you are both encouraged and expected to eat more. Never restrict food intake.

The Homeodynamic Recovery Method minimum intake guidelines are age-, height-, and sex-matched based on energy intake requirements for equivalent healthy controls. They are based on all the amassed hard data listed in Doubly-Labeled Water Method Trials. I have just stated that these intake levels are for energy-balanced individuals and when you have an eating disorder, you are energy depleted. The reason the minimum intakes are set to these levels is that it’s a reasonable way to get you started. In fact, the HDRM intake guidelines are set lower than many inpatient and residential treatment centers for those with eating disorders because you cannot restore an energy deficit in the body by merely eating as an energy-balanced person might do.

You therefore can expect to eat far more than HDRM minimum intake levels during your energy-restoration process towards reaching remission.

The HDRM food intake guidelines are as follows:

Adult female
You are a 25+ year-old female between 5’0” and 5’8” (152.4 to 173 cm): minimum 2500 kcal/day.

Adult male
You are a 25+ year-old male between 5’4” and 6’0” (162.5 and 183 cm): minimum 3000 kcal/day.

Adolescent female
You are an under 25-year-old female between 5’0” and 5’8” (152.4 to 173 cm): minimum 3000 kcal/day.

Adolescent male
You are an under 25-year-old male between 5’4” and 6’0” (162.5 and 183 cm): minimum 3500 kcal/day.

Outside Height Range
If you are taller than the height guidelines listed above, then expect to add approximately 200 kcal/day to the minimum intake amounts listed for your shorter counterparts (age and sex matched).

If you are shorter than the height guidelines listed above, then you may eat 200 kcal/day less than the minimum intake listed for your taller age and sex matched counterparts; however, keep in mind that these are average intake guidelines for those without an eating disorder—you should find yourself wanting to eat far more than these intake guidelines during your recovery process"

What can be expected of your glucose level when you eat freely of calories and carbohydrates?

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You — The Eating Disorder Institute

"But it is very important to note blood glucose levels can be elevated in recovery from an eating disorder and will often resolve of their own accord.2

the vagaries of blood glucose and insulin levels for those actively in recovery from an eating disorder can mimic the onset of diabetes mellitus type 2 but may not actually represent the onset of type 2 at all. Given that spontaneous adjustment of aberrant blood glucose and/or insulin levels back to the norm will occur for most as recovery from an eating disorder progresses, then we would be stretching diagnostic frameworks to refer to something transient and self-correcting as equivalent to diabetes mellitus type 2 in its usual presentation in old age."

It has been my experience that blood glucose levels normalize with daily consumption of nothing less than the minimum calorie intake as described above. The body is the best arbiter of what is normal for any biomarker. Our dynamic bodies will regulate all biomarkers optimally when nutrients and calories are kept at high levels. Plentiful nutrients will come with a high calorie varied diet.

Ray encourages informing ourselves of the science. The science is out there, even if the information gap has kept practitioners in pre-scientific, drug company- fueled methods of treating a biomarker, instead of the real cause of high blood glucose readings, starvation.

You are a God-send. This is a lot to digest and I am wide open. You and others on this forum are turning my world up side down and that is a good thing. And to think I was about to undertake another long term fast (trying to adjust my serotonin uptake). I now realize that is probably the last thing I need to do. Thank you for giving me guidance on my path to understanding. I crave the knowledge along this journey seeking truth to correct my mistakes. Again thank you.

 

[Watubi]

Did you ever worry about hitting anaemic conditions though?

Sure, my daily lifestyle keeps me in a persistent state of ketosis. Never the less my liver is working overtime keeping my circulating blood glucose high. It's like my body is working against me. More likely my keto diet, persistent intermittent fasting and high intensity exercising is part of the problem and not the solution. I am chronically tired so I am looking for answers, very willing to change my paradigm. Kelj has given me a lot to think about. It is wonderful!

 

[Zigzag]

Well, she was recommending to fast every other day, or every 3 days. That would seem more than adequate time to move into ketosis.

I really doubt it's possible to enter ketosis that fast. Last time I tried, it took me 3-4 days and even before that I had been eating low carb meals.

Actually it might be possible for someone adapted, but definitely not for a beginner.

 

[sladerunner69]

I really doubt it's possible to enter ketosis that fast. Last time I tried, it took me 3-4 days and even before that I had been eating low carb meals.

Actually it might be possible for someone adapted, but definitely not for a beginner.

How could you tell you were in ketosis? Also, I generally define ketosis as a state where most energy is being produced from fat oxidation.

 

[Zigzag]

How could you tell you were in ketosis? Also, I generally define ketosis as a state where most energy is being produced from fat oxidation.

Ketones in urine, "ketoflu". That was during my first time when I didn't know what was happening. I felt terrible. Bad breath, very high heart rate (that was super unpleasant, even concerning), extreme fatigue. Then I read about drastic drop of minerals and managed to get myself out of that state.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Very poor ideas. Fasting makes diabetes worse.

Intermittent fasting for three months decreases pancreatic islet mass and increases insulin resistance in Wistar rats | ECE2018

Introduction: It is known that fasting causes several physiological changes in the endocrine pancreas, such as insulin secretion, pancreatic islet metabolism and beta cells redox state. However, there is still no consensus about the effects of intermittent fasting (IF), a fad diet widespread by the media and adopted by individuals seeking rapid weight loss. In the present study, we sought to study the effects of the IF diet for three months in an animal model.

Methods: Thirty-day-old female Wistar rats were submitted to IF for three months. During this time body weight and food intake were recorded. After the treatment the animals were killed, and pancreatic islets, perigonadal white adipose tissue, extensor digitorum longus muscle tissue and liver were collected for different analyses.

Results: IF decreased body weight and food intake. The stomach was greatly increased in size. There was an increase in adipose tissue and a decrease in muscle tissue. IF caused elevation of plasmatic insulin levels, both baseline and after glucose administration. In vitro, IF pancreatic islets had increased insulin secretion, glucose metabolism and net reactive oxygen species production, while decreased their mass. In addition, impairment in AKT phosphorylation was observed in peripheral tissues indicating insulin resistance.

Discussion: Previous studies showed an increase in orexigenic neurotransmitters production in IF, inducing hunger and hyperphagia in the ad libitum feeding days. Our experiments demonstrate that, despite the weight loss, IF treatment induces undesirable effects on tissue homeostasis. Therefore, the hyperinsulinemia registered in vivo and in vitro, associated with the impairment of glucose tolerance and the decrease in AKT phosphorylation, make clear the occurrence of peripheral insulin resistance. The increased metabolism of pancreatic islets dispersed cells, after IF treatment, indorses the higher insulin secretion. Furthermore, the decrease in the pancreatic islet mass indicates that three months of IF treatment cause severe impairment in glucose homeostasis. In conclusion, intermittent fasting diet may not be healthy to be adopted by individuals seeking rapid weight loss.

 

[Spartan300]

I have tested high more than once for fasted high blood sugar/pre-diabetes and also present hypo symptoms.

I buy into the refeeding theory but in practice how is it possible in practical terms to get to 3000+cal without starch and avoiding phosphorus from excessive meat consumption. Often with compromised gut/digestion?

 

[Kelj]

how is it possible in practical terms to get to 3000+cal without starch and avoiding phosphorus from excessive meat consumption.

Those who persist with refeeding do so letting go of all food avoidance ideas. In the case of eating disorders, it is a matter of life and death that they do so. Avoiding a particular food, or category of food, like dessert, was usually the trigger for the calorie restriction which made them so ill.

Context is everything. When a person has become ill, sometimes avoiding a particular food will ameliorate symptoms and bring relief, as in, for example, celiac disease. The avoidance of gluten is necessary for someone who has had testing confirming celiac disease. Will avoiding gluten benefit someone who does not have celiac disease and prevent acquiring celiac disease? No. In this context, avoiding gluten- containing foods is likely to precipitate undereating and, if one has the genetic predisposition for it, an eating disorder. Eating disorders affect 14-33 % of the population. That is a lot of people to have the potential for developing a very deadly condition, precipitated by food restriction.

What all of this means is, all of those who have practised refeeding, have regained health while eating starch and meat (usually) and even (shhhhh!)...PUFA. This is just the truth. I have this personal experience, as well. I was very ill while avoiding those foods, but have completely reversed all those problems by letting go of all restriction. This refeeding thing is not a theory. It is a practice which has returned many thousands of people to health. So, instead of arguing about whether people have done what they have done, let's think, in what context people can eat starch, meat and PUFA and be healthy.

In the context of undereating calories, many body functions have been made over by the body to deal with the starvation. These are not optimal. In this context, it is common to have food sensitivities. In the context of undereating carbohydrate, the body's preferred fuel, glucose, is in short supply and the body will turn to the oxidation of fats. It is very likely that undereating calories and even just undereating carbohydrates causes the negative effects from fats that Ray speaks of. It is the experience of many who persist in eating enough calories, and following their body's desire (craving) for which foods to eat, to not eat that much muscle meat. Maybe a small amount once per day or just a couple of times per week. Since a dangerously low phosphorous level occurs for a minority who experience refeeding syndrome, it would seem wise to follow the body's craving for meat. It has been my personal experience and that of those I know, to become completely well while eating everything, including bread, milk, potatoes, meat and even PUFA. The metabolism restores balance with the energy it is getting and the body regulates the use of all food in a healthy way. Eating disorders are about anxiety. Anxiety around any food is the essence of an eating disorder.

The digestive tract is affected by lack of energy. It cannot be repaired until the energy is sufficient to do so. So, there can be decided unpleasantness from that region when upping calorie intake and reintroducing foods. I, personally, had eliminated milk and all carbohydrates from my diet and it took a little while to stop having negative symptoms after reintroducing them.

Some relevant quotes to the above points:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Advising any patient to diet and exercise to ameliorate morbidity or mortality outcomes is not evidence-based medicine, 2 but to suggest these things to a patient with an eating disorder precipitates increased severity of the eating disorder. 3"

"eating disorder....prevalence? Somewhere between 14-33% of the population at large. 5, 6, 7"

"Your patient’s complaints will likely include:.....gastrointestinal distress (constipation, GERD, bloating etc.)"

"Under-eating relative to energy requirements drastically impacts gut motility, digestive enzyme production and the resilience of the gut mucosal layer. Symptoms of IBS, GERD, pruritus, skin rashes, distention, flatulence, severe constipation, so-called food sensitivities are all common signs of under eating relative to energy requirements. 11, 12"

"hypothyroidism....represent various ways in which the body catabolizes itself to release energy from living cells into the blood stream and suppresses all non-essential biological functions to stay alive as long as possible when faced with an ongoing energy deficit."

Orthorexia Nervosa I: Women Laughing Alone with Salad — The Eating Disorder Institute

"common symptoms that reflect that quality of life is negatively impacted:

You will not eat certain foods under any circumstance despite the fact that you once enjoyed them.....

You adhere to diets that are suitable for those with existing disease states believing they have disease prevention capabilities (eg. Paleo-diet, low-fat diets, no-dairy diets, low-carb diets, low-protein diets, etc.)......

"The starvation-impacted brain is now paranoid and highly anxious. Food becomes the enemy. Explanations for continuing to restrict are often framed as “excuses” by others, but they are more a reflection of the biological adjustments to starvation: gastroparesis, reduction of digestive enzyme production (leading to secondary food intolerances), gastrointestinal motility issues due to bacterial colony collapse, and issues with swallowing often associated with reduction in saliva production and throat irritation due to regurgitation and vomiting."

"At the core of the healthy-eating craze is the misunderstanding that restrictive diets that provide health improvements for those with existing disease states will somehow also have preventative and protective value for those who are currently healthy."

"Obviously a patient with celiac disease must remove gluten-based foods from her diet. However, she is in a diseased state. And while celiac disease may confer other survival benefits, essentially her restrictive diet is an unfortunate outcome of her existing disease state. Her disease will worsen with the continued consumption of gluten. But a healthy person who removes gluten from her diet will at best experience absolutely no health benefit and at worst will alter the bacterial balance in her gut in ways that might even be harmful.34,35 She also adds a reasonable risk of nutritional deficiency and poor vitamin status over time. 36, 37,38"

"There is a world of difference between the improvements in health from a diseased state that a restrictive diet may provide, to the bold mental leap that those specific foods caused the diseased state in the first place. Gluten does not cause celiac disease. Dieting does not cause anorexia. Dietary fat does not cause heart disease."

"And most importantly, even with genetic predispositions in place, disease states are not foregone conclusions with either the presence or absence of particular foods.

Even for patients with the genetic predisposition to develop celiac disease, gluten in the diet does not activate the disease state."

Orthorexia II: Doubt and Certainty — The Eating Disorder Institute

"if I happened to be a patient where applying exercise, food and fluid restriction, and weighing regimes would activate an eating disorder, then my risk of dying due to an active eating disorder absolutely flattens the almost negligible reduction in risk of death associated with the outcomes of my heart failure."

"You have between a one in four to one in five chance of dying due to an eating disorder if it remains active for twenty years. Very few chronic disease states will come anywhere near that mortality rate, with most sitting several decimal columns to the right of the decimal point in terms of risk."

"while I have been addressing ‘healthy’ diets framed as the pursuit of living long and healthy lives, in fact the pursuit is actually a ball of anxious wool that intertwines existential angst, social acceptance and fear of isolation in with top-of-mind concepts of health and longevity."

"All diets and variations of diets that are identified as “healthy” are going to fall into one of these three categories:

1. Actually so restrictive in food groups (or amount) as to be identifiably (with clinical data) unhealthy, or deadly.
2. A diet that has been identified as weakly correlating in epidemiological studies with health and longevity where too many unaccounted for factors in the results render the data essentially irrelevant.....
3. A diet that has been experimentally proven to reverse symptoms associated with an existing disease state that has subsequently been wrongly applied as though it also has preventative value."

"an eating disorder is a deadly chronic condition to the point where you and your medical team may not be able to consider removal of foods from your diet when managing your secondary chronic condition (such as rheumatoid arthritis) because it drives progressive restriction and hastens overall disability and early death as a result."

"For many facing the unpleasant reality that the symptoms are not improving despite dedicated attention to diet and exercise, they simply assume that they have misapplied or overlooked some important detail in diet and exercise. They try a different diet; they change their activities; they eliminate more foods; and they become even more excruciatingly aware of the symptoms in their attempts to identify what combination provides any worsening or improvement at all.

And most never come out of that spiral."

"many with eating disorders develop secondary chronic conditions as a direct result of restricting food intake, for which they receive a diagnosis and the go-to advice to watch the diet and exercise. And not a single medical practitioner identifies that the entire progression could be reversed were the patient attending to re-feeding and rest (rather than diet and exercise).

Homeodynamic Recovery Method — The Eating Disorder Institute

"The body manages itself."

Food Fears I: Food, Family and Fear — The Eating Disorder Institute

"ultra-processed foods are actually (gasp!) not merely beneficial in recovery, but often preferentially superior to homemade food or unprocessed foods."

"Trans fats, or trans-isomer fatty acids, occur in nature. In this section I will take a look at the natural occurrence of trans fats. Trans fats exist in small quantities in both dairy and meat. This particular trans fat is called vaccenic acid. Human beings convert vaccenic acid into conjugated linoleic acid 31 and CLA is a group of polyunsaturated fatty acids. While CLA’s are perhaps oversold in their benefits to human health, there is enough clinical data to suggest that their presence improves immune function and enhances the body’s ability to maintain its optimal weight set point. 31,32,33,34"

"why ultra-processed foods are rather opportunistically ideal in the recovery process from eating disorders.....the previous section, the more processing applied to food before we eat it, the less our bodies have to expend energy to extract the energy locked within that food......The end result of all of that is when you eat ultra-processed foods you provide your body with more net energy. 40"

"All of those very unpleasant psychological side effects are not there because your prescription (food) is actually damaging you or hurting you in any way. Your eating disorder is creating that entire mirage of fear-based side effects even as the food itself continues to restore you and heal you.

Breathe and eat. Eat and breathe. It gets easier as you continue to reinforce in your mind that the ED-based fears are not real and are therefore not worthy of your serious consideration."

 

[Spartan300]

Thanks @Kelj

Well I've tried pretty much everything else recommended on the forum without much success so eating as much of what I fancy should be an easier strategy to pursue.

 

[sladerunner69]

Very poor ideas. Fasting makes diabetes worse.

Intermittent fasting for three months decreases pancreatic islet mass and increases insulin resistance in Wistar rats | ECE2018

Introduction: It is known that fasting causes several physiological changes in the endocrine pancreas, such as insulin secretion, pancreatic islet metabolism and beta cells redox state. However, there is still no consensus about the effects of intermittent fasting (IF), a fad diet widespread by the media and adopted by individuals seeking rapid weight loss. In the present study, we sought to study the effects of the IF diet for three months in an animal model.

Methods: Thirty-day-old female Wistar rats were submitted to IF for three months. During this time body weight and food intake were recorded. After the treatment the animals were killed, and pancreatic islets, perigonadal white adipose tissue, extensor digitorum longus muscle tissue and liver were collected for different analyses.

Results: IF decreased body weight and food intake. The stomach was greatly increased in size. There was an increase in adipose tissue and a decrease in muscle tissue. IF caused elevation of plasmatic insulin levels, both baseline and after glucose administration. In vitro, IF pancreatic islets had increased insulin secretion, glucose metabolism and net reactive oxygen species production, while decreased their mass. In addition, impairment in AKT phosphorylation was observed in peripheral tissues indicating insulin resistance.

Discussion: Previous studies showed an increase in orexigenic neurotransmitters production in IF, inducing hunger and hyperphagia in the ad libitum feeding days. Our experiments demonstrate that, despite the weight loss, IF treatment induces undesirable effects on tissue homeostasis. Therefore, the hyperinsulinemia registered in vivo and in vitro, associated with the impairment of glucose tolerance and the decrease in AKT phosphorylation, make clear the occurrence of peripheral insulin resistance. The increased metabolism of pancreatic islets dispersed cells, after IF treatment, indorses the higher insulin secretion. Furthermore, the decrease in the pancreatic islet mass indicates that three months of IF treatment cause severe impairment in glucose homeostasis. In conclusion, intermittent fasting diet may not be healthy to be adopted by individuals seeking rapid weight loss.

Well, at least there was a decrease in adipose tissue. Also, increased insulin sensitivity would likely accompany a decrease in serum insulin. That is generally how receptors operate, where the organism up regulates receptors which it senses are being under-stimulated.

This is why lately I have been thinking that we on very peat diet, constantly eating carbs and sugars, have difficulty losing bodyfat. Our insulin is constantly signalling for fat storage.

 

[Cirion]

"ultra-processed foods are actually (gasp!) not merely beneficial in recovery, but often preferentially superior to homemade food or unprocessed foods."

These quotes really bother me honestly.

So all of the additives which are not "food" like carrageenum gum, food coloring, brominated vegetable oil, poor quality synthetic added vitamins, "natural flavors", plastics, (and many more I could list), none of this matter? Some ultra-processed foods have as much as one hundred or more ingredients that are either synthetic or proven goitrogens/toxins. Look at "Food Babe". She wrote a great book about the toxic ingredients in our foods and how she only made recovery from her health issues removing, not adding, these ingredients to her diet. Sorry, but that just loses all credibility in my head. This stuff indeed makes digestibility worse, not better. How can one, in a sane mind, say that toxic additives are "better" than unprocessed foods? Does all of the research Ray Peat do not count for anything? To say that food selection "does not matter" or worse yet to say "processed foods are better than health foods" is horribly misguided IMO. There absolutely is a massive difference between grain fed meat and grass fed meat (as a random example), and to tell people "just eat the grain fed meat because, orthorexia" is silly and to ignore the effects of things like estrogens in grain fed meat (as example) is folly.

But if by refined you mean like refined coconut oil that removes the fiber, then I am on board with that, and that's different. Refined sugar even maybe has some benefits, but its devoid of minerals.

Now one thing is that people eating a refined diet DOES have going for it as they are less likely to be deficient in calories, that is true. And if someone does have a history of caloric restriction, I can see the value in it. I sincerely doubt anyone is constantly eating "junk" food each and every day and in optimal health though. Sure, I acknowledge that some people ate these for a time and found recovery. But here's the thing -- maybe they started off eating foods like this in order to get out of a hypo-caloric condition, but eventually they start to switch to better, higher quality foods and its at this point that full recovery occurs.

[

 

[baccheion]

Very poor ideas. Fasting makes diabetes worse.

Intermittent fasting for three months decreases pancreatic islet mass and increases insulin resistance in Wistar rats | ECE2018

Introduction: It is known that fasting causes several physiological changes in the endocrine pancreas, such as insulin secretion, pancreatic islet metabolism and beta cells redox state. However, there is still no consensus about the effects of intermittent fasting (IF), a fad diet widespread by the media and adopted by individuals seeking rapid weight loss. In the present study, we sought to study the effects of the IF diet for three months in an animal model.

Methods: Thirty-day-old female Wistar rats were submitted to IF for three months. During this time body weight and food intake were recorded. After the treatment the animals were killed, and pancreatic islets, perigonadal white adipose tissue, extensor digitorum longus muscle tissue and liver were collected for different analyses.

Results: IF decreased body weight and food intake. The stomach was greatly increased in size. There was an increase in adipose tissue and a decrease in muscle tissue. IF caused elevation of plasmatic insulin levels, both baseline and after glucose administration. In vitro, IF pancreatic islets had increased insulin secretion, glucose metabolism and net reactive oxygen species production, while decreased their mass. In addition, impairment in AKT phosphorylation was observed in peripheral tissues indicating insulin resistance.

Discussion: Previous studies showed an increase in orexigenic neurotransmitters production in IF, inducing hunger and hyperphagia in the ad libitum feeding days. Our experiments demonstrate that, despite the weight loss, IF treatment induces undesirable effects on tissue homeostasis. Therefore, the hyperinsulinemia registered in vivo and in vitro, associated with the impairment of glucose tolerance and the decrease in AKT phosphorylation, make clear the occurrence of peripheral insulin resistance. The increased metabolism of pancreatic islets dispersed cells, after IF treatment, indorses the higher insulin secretion. Furthermore, the decrease in the pancreatic islet mass indicates that three months of IF treatment cause severe impairment in glucose homeostasis. In conclusion, intermittent fasting diet may not be healthy to be adopted by individuals seeking rapid weight loss.

What sort of intermittent fasting was this? Eating within an 8 hour window? Every other day? What about studies of effects on humans? There was one that assessed intermittent fasting + slight caloric restriction on resistance-trained males. Findings were different. Negative was lowered testosterone.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Human studies same. Fasting is the exact opposite of what is good. It raises free fatty acids and cortisol. For the PUFA-laden man or woman, this is the great way to make diabetes much worse and kill beta cells.

Eating patterns and type 2 diabetes risk in men: breakfast omission, eating frequency, and snacking
Background: Little is known about the association between eating patterns and type 2 diabetes (T2D) risk.

Objective: The objective of this study was to prospectively examine associations between breakfast omission, eating frequency, snacking, and T2D risk in men.

Design: Eating patterns were assessed in 1992 in a cohort of 29,206 US men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study who were free of T2D, cardiovascular disease, and cancer and were followed for 16 y. We used Cox proportional hazards analysis to evaluate associations with incident T2D.

Results: We documented 1944 T2D cases during follow-up. After adjustment for known risk factors for T2D, including BMI, men who skipped breakfast had 21% higher risk of T2D than did men who consumed breakfast (RR: 1.21; 95% CI: 1.07, 1.35). Compared with men who ate 3 times/d, men who ate 1–2 times/d had a higher risk of T2D (RR: 1.25; 95% CI: 1.08, 1.45). These findings persisted after stratification by BMI or diet quality. Additional snacks beyond the 3 main meals (breakfast, lunch, and dinner) were associated with increased T2D risk, but these associations were attenuated after adjustment for BMI.

Conclusions: Breakfast omission was associated with an increased risk of T2D in men even after adjustment for BMI. A direct association between snacking between meals and T2D risk was mediated by BMI.



By the way, coffee consumption over 5 cups a day dramatically reduces type 2 diabetes incidence in this Swedish study
Error - Cookies Turned Off
Objectives. The association between coffee consumption, type 2 diabetes and impaired glucose tolerance was examined. In addition, indicators of insulin sensitivity and β‐cell function according to homeostasis model assessment were studied in relation to coffee consumption.

Design. Population‐based cross‐sectional study.

Setting and subjects. The study comprised 7949 healthy Swedish subjects aged 35–56 years residing within five municipalities of Stockholm. An oral glucose tolerance test identified 55 men and 52 women with previously undiagnosed type 2 diabetes and 172 men and 167 women with impaired glucose tolerance. Information about coffee consumption and other factors was obtained by questionnaire.

Results. The relative risks (adjusted for potential confounders) of type 2 diabetes and impaired glucose tolerance when drinking ≥5 cups of coffee per day compared with ≤2 cups per day in men were 0.45 [95% confidence intervals (CI) 0.22–0.92] and 0.63 (CI: 0.41–0.97), respectively, and in women 0.27 (CI: 0.11–0.66) and 0.47 (CI: 0.29–0.76) respectively. In subjects with type 2 diabetes and impaired glucose tolerance, high coffee consumption (≥5 cups day−1) was inversely associated with insulin resistance. In addition, in those with type 2 diabetes and in women (not in men) with impaired glucose tolerance high coffee consumption was inversely associated with low β‐cell function. In women, but not obviously in men, with normal glucose tolerance, coffee consumption was associated with a reduced risk of insulin resistance.

Conclusions. The results of this study indicated that high consumers of coffee have a reduced risk of type 2 diabetes and impaired glucose tolerance. The beneficial effects may involve both improved insulin sensitivity and enhanced insulin response.