Has Anyone Reversed Their Type II Diabetes Following RP Advice?

Lokzo

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2016
Messages
2,123
Location
Melbourne
For me, one of the biggest things that helped in normalizing blood sugar was lowering body iron stores. As with so many degenerative diseases, high iron is present in diabetes, and the iron itself is causal. You should consider getting an iron panel with TSAT and ferritin. Blood sugar regulation really improved as I got near deficiency, as did energy and mental clarity. This is discussed many places on the forum, as well as in the work of E.D. Weinberg and Dr. Fachinni. Even so called "high normal" ferritin levels can cause blood sugar and other issues, so don't just pay attention to lab ranges.

Magnesium supplementation also seemed to help lower high blood sugar levels, but it was not as dramatic as getting my iron levels near deficiency.

Did you ever worry about hitting anaemic conditions though?
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Did you ever worry about hitting anaemic conditions though?

That was something I monitored. I did a lot of blood donation (phlebotomy), and you don't want to get over bled. But, I never did. I always took note of hemoglobin at the donation center. It wasn't even a concern in the beginning, as ferritin was so high (444 to start). I used a B complex to keep hemoglobin up while iron stores were still declining. And I did continue to monitor iron stores periodically during iron lowering. I did pay more attention as ferritin got around the 100 range. Never had anemia nor any symptoms of it, even when ferritin tested at 28 and 18 (25 is the target I was aiming to hit on at least one occasion).
 

Lokzo

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2016
Messages
2,123
Location
Melbourne
That was something I monitored. I did a lot of blood donation (phlebotomy), and you don't want to get over bled. But, I never did. I always took note of hemoglobin at the donation center. It wasn't even a concern in the beginning, as ferritin was so high (444 to start). I used a B complex to keep hemoglobin up while iron stores were still declining. And I did continue to monitor iron stores periodically during iron lowering. I did pay more attention as ferritin got around the 100 range. Never had anemia nor any symptoms of it, even when ferritin tested at 28 and 18 (25 is the target I was aiming to hit on at least one occasion).

Ah so in tune!!

Nice work man. And your energy levels remained farily constant and even improved as you lowered your serum Iron and Ferritin?

Did you use Taurine at all?
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Ah so in tune!!

Nice work man. And your energy levels remained farily constant and even improved as you lowered your serum Iron and Ferritin?

Did you use Taurine at all?

Yes, energy improved as Ferritin got lower. That was the main marker I used to monitor, it tends to be the best indicator of body iron stores.

Don't think I used Taurine at the time. Don't know of any iron lowering properties for that. I did use IP6 (which seems to help in lowering iron), and also Vitamin E (mainly to protect against oxidation damage since iron was so high).
 

Lokzo

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2016
Messages
2,123
Location
Melbourne
Yes, energy improved as Ferritin got lower. That was the main marker I used to monitor, it tends to be the best indicator of body iron stores.

Don't think I used Taurine at the time. Don't know of any iron lowering properties for that. I did use IP6 (which seems to help in lowering iron), and also Vitamin E (mainly to protect against oxidation damage since iron was so high).

Ah sweet!!

Yeah I just started using Vitamin E, and really do like how I feel on it. 188mg per evening. Gives me this grounded calm feeling.
 

rei

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Messages
1,607
Seems to be a case where less could be more. Here's some ideas: you might overdo the iodine? Depending on the dose you take maybe cut back to only once per day. Switch to Mk-4. Stop omega-3. Stop turmeric+black pepper. Stop probiotics. Stop cold stress.

And even when someone already spoke against it here: fasting. Much, much more effective in reversing severe diabetes than keto. Jason Fung has videos on youtube about this and his experience curing patients with T2D.

Diabetes seems to be caused by serotonin. And bacterial fermentation in the colon is the overwhelmingly most common source of excess serotonin. Recently a study was released confirming this and many similar ideas as dr. Peat including using antibiotics to cure diabetes. The gut microbiome regulates host glucose homeostasis via peripheral serotonin
 
OP
Watubi

Watubi

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
29
Location
Alabama
For me, one of the biggest things that helped in normalizing blood sugar was lowering body iron stores. As with so many degenerative diseases, high iron is present in diabetes, and the iron itself is causal. You should consider getting an iron panel with TSAT and ferritin. Blood sugar regulation really improved as I got near deficiency, as did energy and mental clarity. This is discussed many places on the forum, as well as in the work of E.D. Weinberg and Dr. Fachinni. Even so called "high normal" ferritin levels can cause blood sugar and other issues, so don't just pay attention to lab ranges.

Magnesium supplementation also seemed to help lower high blood sugar levels, but it was not as dramatic as getting my iron levels near deficiency.
Wow I have never heard of this and will definitely look into getting the panel done on my next draw. Thank you for helping me on my journey :):
 
OP
Watubi

Watubi

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
29
Location
Alabama
Seems to be a case where less could be more. Here's some ideas: you might overdo the iodine? Depending on the dose you take maybe cut back to only once per day. Switch to Mk-4. Stop omega-3. Stop turmeric+black pepper. Stop probiotics. Stop cold stress.

And even when someone already spoke against it here: fasting. Much, much more effective in reversing severe diabetes than keto. Jason Fung has videos on youtube about this and his experience curing patients with T2D.

Diabetes seems to be caused by serotonin. And bacterial fermentation in the colon is the overwhelmingly most common source of excess serotonin. Recently a study was released confirming this and many similar ideas as dr. Peat including using antibiotics to cure diabetes. The gut microbiome regulates host glucose homeostasis via peripheral serotonin
I can't believe it has taken me so long to get to this forum. There is so much useful information. Thank you!
 

Kelj

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
299
The right question is not, how do I cause my blood glucose to fall below 220, Ray Peat diet or something else. The question is, why is my body, a "rational organism" as Ray puts it, is keeping my blood glucose at 220. It is clearly evident, from your description of your diet, why your body is doing this. It is to save your life
The myths around "diabetes" are piled so deep it is impossible to wade through them without a shovel. Let's start digging.
First, "diabetes" is not a disease. What is it? That is explained in this article:

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You — The Eating Disorder Institute

"diabetes mellitus type 2 is not a disease— it’s a risk factor for developing disease. That means that not everyone with diabetes type 2 (treated or untreated) will ever develop any disease state that is more strongly correlated with the presence of type 2 than for those who don’t have the condition."

The above quote states that, whether or not your blood sugar is high, to treat the body to force the glucose down to an arbitrary number, or not, has no relevance to whether you develop a disease. High blood glucose is a symptom of something going on, not the problem, itself.

There are diseases which are supposedly the result of blood glucose being elevated: neuropathies, kidney disease, cardiovascular problems, eye problems. We are given to believe that high sugar levels in our bloodstream cause the breakdown of nerves, veins, and organs. Reading Ray Peat's articles on sugar as posted above by lampofred will help to break down some of those myths about sugar/carbohydrate consumption causing "diabetes". Also, yes, Ray's suggestions to drink milk and orange juice will go a long way toward addressing the real problem the body is dealing with.

The above article is from the Eating Disorder Institute. Hyperglycemia is part and parcel of recovery from an eating disorder as shown here:

Time and Scope: Recovery Is Tough — The Eating Disorder Institute

"as you begin the process of rectifying an imminent disaster by re-feeding: hypoglycemia, pre-diabetes, high cholesterol, hypothyroidism and Hashimoto’s, osteopenia and osteoporosis, acid reflux, dental enamel erosion, infertility, reproductive hormone inadequacies, depression, memory and retention degeneration, gastroparesis, Barrett’s esophagus, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, liver enzyme anomalies, kidney function anomalies, anemia, leukopenia…"

Notice, hypoglycemia, "prediabetes", and kidney function anomalies are mentioned as problems that surface as a person recovers from an eating disorder. The reason is, all these are symptoms of starvation and when one begins to recover from starvation, body systems that have been created to cope with the starvation have to be broken down and new, more resilient systems, have to be rebuilt in their place.
Notice, neuropathies on this list of systems:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

  1. Your patient’s complaints will likely include:
- insomnia
- infertility/amenorrhea/oligomenorrhea
- depression
- slow-to-heal injuries from workouts and distance running
- debilitating fatigue
- neuropathies
- pruritus, rashes, skin conditions
- gastrointestinal distress (constipation, GERD, bloating etc.)

No matter the cause of the starvation, real famine, poverty, eating disorder generated starvation (including so-called "binge eating disorder", being, as it is, repeated reaction to repeated starvation), or yo-yo dieting, the symptoms are blood sugar reactions and tissue breakdown in various parts of the body. These are seen together, not because glucose causes these things, but because they are all effects of starvation.
Starvation is eating under your body's energy requirements. Here's what happens when we do:

BMI and Eating Disorders: It’s All About Undereating — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Everyone is equipped with two ways of surviving an energy deficit in the body for a short time: one way is the body will catabolize cells (losing mass and destroying organs) and the other is that it will suppress metabolic function (slow or stop entire biological systems, such as reproductive functions). However, both these ways happen in different proportions in each individual (and the amount of catabolism vs. metabolic suppression may change over time too)."

The catabolism of tissue that occurs as a result of undereating is necessary to keep us alive. Organs and nerves are damaged in the process. The organs that are damaged due to starvation are those whose damage is blamed erroneously on a high level of blood glucose, as seen in the articles below:

Progression Of Retinal Disease Linked To Cell Starvation
Progression of Retinal Disease Linked to Cell Starvation

https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/47/5/564.full.pdf
Slimmer's Paralysis perineal Neuropathy During Weight Reduction

[Renal function in therapeutic starvation (author's transl)]. - PubMed - NCBI
Renal Function in Therapeutic Starvation

The relatively high glucose level is another mechanism ordered by the brain to keep us alive. This paper:

Association of Clinical Symptomatic Hypoglycemia With Cardiovascular Events and Total Mortality in Type 2 Diabetes: A nationwide population-based study

speaks of Symptomatic Relative Hypoglycemia. This is symptoms of LOW blood glucose, hypoglycemia, even when a glucose reading is "normal" or "high".

"in real-world clinical practice, it is intriguing to identify hypoglycemic events based solely on symptoms or a physician’s diagnosis rather than on glucose levels"

The brain selects its optimum glucose level based on availability of glucose in the environment. It is the undereating of calories, especially glucose calories, that prompts the rise in cortisol which initiates the catabolism of body tissue to keep glucose coming in ample supply. The body operates at 200%, preferentially, as explained here:

FAQ — The Eating Disorder Institute

“When we restrict calorie intake the body has a way to manage it, but it costs.
Most biological systems are run to an overdrive level with certain key clamps put on the system to keep it at an optimal state.It is biologically more energy-intensive and risky to try to run a system right to 100% all the time than to run the system to 200% and just use a few hormones or enzymes to clamp it down to 100%.
Our bodies are probably quite literally built to burn off excess energy in our sleep if there are any unneeded excesses.But restrict your calories and now all of the limiting hormones like leptin, ghrelin and insulin and others are left scrambling because you have just dumped the entire metabolic system to well below its 100% functional level. Leptin is a clamping hormone. With nothing to clamp down on, it plummets in our blood streams and this creates a cascade of shut downs throughout the body."

So, while it may seem wasteful to keep a constant stream of glucose from tissue catabolism in our serum and being eliminated in our urine, that is the body's normal way of functioning. The only way to turn this back-up mechanism off is to supply plenty of calories and glucose sources, especially, in our diet.

What is plenty?

Homeodynamic Recovery Method Guidelines Overview — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Eat the minimum intake for your height, age, weight and sex every single day. It’s a minimum intake and you are both encouraged and expected to eat more. Never restrict food intake.

The Homeodynamic Recovery Method minimum intake guidelines are age-, height-, and sex-matched based on energy intake requirements for equivalent healthy controls. They are based on all the amassed hard data listed in Doubly-Labeled Water Method Trials. I have just stated that these intake levels are for energy-balanced individuals and when you have an eating disorder, you are energy depleted. The reason the minimum intakes are set to these levels is that it’s a reasonable way to get you started. In fact, the HDRM intake guidelines are set lower than many inpatient and residential treatment centers for those with eating disorders because you cannot restore an energy deficit in the body by merely eating as an energy-balanced person might do.

You therefore can expect to eat far more than HDRM minimum intake levels during your energy-restoration process towards reaching remission.

The HDRM food intake guidelines are as follows:

Adult female
You are a 25+ year-old female between 5’0” and 5’8” (152.4 to 173 cm): minimum 2500 kcal/day.

Adult male
You are a 25+ year-old male between 5’4” and 6’0” (162.5 and 183 cm): minimum 3000 kcal/day.

Adolescent female
You are an under 25-year-old female between 5’0” and 5’8” (152.4 to 173 cm): minimum 3000 kcal/day.

Adolescent male
You are an under 25-year-old male between 5’4” and 6’0” (162.5 and 183 cm): minimum 3500 kcal/day.

Outside Height Range
If you are taller than the height guidelines listed above, then expect to add approximately 200 kcal/day to the minimum intake amounts listed for your shorter counterparts (age and sex matched).

If you are shorter than the height guidelines listed above, then you may eat 200 kcal/day less than the minimum intake listed for your taller age and sex matched counterparts; however, keep in mind that these are average intake guidelines for those without an eating disorder—you should find yourself wanting to eat far more than these intake guidelines during your recovery process"

What can be expected of your glucose level when you eat freely of calories and carbohydrates?

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You — The Eating Disorder Institute

"But it is very important to note blood glucose levels can be elevated in recovery from an eating disorder and will often resolve of their own accord.2

the vagaries of blood glucose and insulin levels for those actively in recovery from an eating disorder can mimic the onset of diabetes mellitus type 2 but may not actually represent the onset of type 2 at all. Given that spontaneous adjustment of aberrant blood glucose and/or insulin levels back to the norm will occur for most as recovery from an eating disorder progresses, then we would be stretching diagnostic frameworks to refer to something transient and self-correcting as equivalent to diabetes mellitus type 2 in its usual presentation in old age."

It has been my experience that blood glucose levels normalize with daily consumption of nothing less than the minimum calorie intake as described above. The body is the best arbiter of what is normal for any biomarker. Our dynamic bodies will regulate all biomarkers optimally when nutrients and calories are kept at high levels. Plentiful nutrients will come with a high calorie varied diet.

Ray encourages informing ourselves of the science. The science is out there, even if the information gap has kept practitioners in pre-scientific, drug company- fueled methods of treating a biomarker, instead of the real cause of high blood glucose readings, starvation.
 

aquaman

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1,297
My body temperature is usually 97.5 within 10 minutes of waking.
My typical daily routine is as follows:

Morning
1. Wake up to see the sunrise and do Qi-gong morning exercises barefoot in the grass
2. Within 30 minutes of waking Eat a high fat and/or protein meal (50 – 75 grams) (usually our farm eggs and steak, seafood or bacon)
3. Within 30 minutes of waking eat fermented food and raw garlic
4. Drink 1–3 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar
5. Immediately drink 16-32oz of ice-cold water (with iodine). DO NOT drink more than 32oz.
6. Exercise cold thermogenesis and DO NOT let skin temperature fall below 50-55 degrees (up to 1 hour)
7. Take D3, K2 (in the form of MK7), Magnesium, Omega 3, DHEA, Selenium, Iodine, PQQ (aka pyrroloquinoline quinone), B Vitamin complex, CoQ10, Turmeric (with black pepper), Vitamin C and Vitamin A
8. Use Vielight (intra-nasal red light therapy) for 25 minutes on the car drive into work

Afternoon
1. Take probiotics (usually in the form of homemade kombucha)
2. Walk with as much skin exposed to sunlight as possible for as long as possible during lunch
3. Drink 2 -3 bottles of water (with iodine) throughout the afternoon
4. Use FSM (Frequency Specific Microcurrent) on the car drive back home
5. Use Vielight for 25 minutes on the car drive back home

Evening
1. Exercise cold thermogenesis and DO NOT let skin temperature fall below 50-55 degrees
2. High Intensity Training (HIT) weight lifting for 30 minutes (after 5pm)
3. Eat a high protein meal with salad and/or vegetables (fiber) allow 4-5 hours between dinner and bedtime
4. 1 hour after meal drink 1 - 3 bottles of water (with iodine)
5. Take 2 – 3 ounces of coconut (or MCT) oil
6. Watch sunset then reduce exposure to blue light and eliminate blue light sources after 2 hours
7. Before bed take prebiotics and probiotics (Del-immune V)
8. Go to bed in time to ensure 7 to 8 hours of sleep

What do you eat at lunch and dinner?

Your breakfast looks like it would spike cortisol (due to water and insufficient carbs)

- drop the PUFAs
- reduce the fat in the morning meal - if you are burning fat, you can’t burn glucose
- eat balanced, medium sized meals 4 times a day
- add some well-cooked starches and ripe or cooked fruits to every meal .. as you add them back in, 30-40grams per meal of carbohydrate should be manageable
- check potassium, calcium and magnesium levels on Cronometer
- avoid bread, grains, pasta
- eat closer to bed so your liver has glycogen to use through the night. If not, you will produce more cortisol and spike blood sugar through muscle breakdown . Fruit, high-protein Greek yogurt and honey works well for me
- Get a blood glucose monitor and check your response after meals, and add 50mg of aspirin, or niacinamide, occasionally through the day. In fact Haidut’s vit B formula is great for glucose control, and so is his product Pyrucet
- personally, milk and juice spike my boood glucose. Still with whole fruits and use milk minimally.. fluids release the sugars much faster
 

Zpol

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
929
Age
45
The right question is not, how do I cause my blood glucose to fall below 220, Ray Peat diet or something else. The question is, why is my body, a "rational organism" as Ray puts it, is keeping my blood glucose at 220. It is clearly evident, from your description of your diet, why your body is doing this. It is to save your life
The myths around "diabetes" are piled so deep it is impossible to wade through them without a shovel. Let's start digging.
First, "diabetes" is not a disease. What is it? That is explained in this article:

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You — The Eating Disorder Institute

"diabetes mellitus type 2 is not a disease— it’s a risk factor for developing disease. That means that not everyone with diabetes type 2 (treated or untreated) will ever develop any disease state that is more strongly correlated with the presence of type 2 than for those who don’t have the condition."

The above quote states that, whether or not your blood sugar is high, to treat the body to force the glucose down to an arbitrary number, or not, has no relevance to whether you develop a disease. High blood glucose is a symptom of something going on, not the problem, itself.

There are diseases which are supposedly the result of blood glucose being elevated: neuropathies, kidney disease, cardiovascular problems, eye problems. We are given to believe that high sugar levels in our bloodstream cause the breakdown of nerves, veins, and organs. Reading Ray Peat's articles on sugar as posted above by lampofred will help to break down some of those myths about sugar/carbohydrate consumption causing "diabetes". Also, yes, Ray's suggestions to drink milk and orange juice will go a long way toward addressing the real problem the body is dealing with.

The above article is from the Eating Disorder Institute. Hyperglycemia is part and parcel of recovery from an eating disorder as shown here:

Time and Scope: Recovery Is Tough — The Eating Disorder Institute

"as you begin the process of rectifying an imminent disaster by re-feeding: hypoglycemia, pre-diabetes, high cholesterol, hypothyroidism and Hashimoto’s, osteopenia and osteoporosis, acid reflux, dental enamel erosion, infertility, reproductive hormone inadequacies, depression, memory and retention degeneration, gastroparesis, Barrett’s esophagus, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, liver enzyme anomalies, kidney function anomalies, anemia, leukopenia…"

Notice, hypoglycemia, "prediabetes", and kidney function anomalies are mentioned as problems that surface as a person recovers from an eating disorder. The reason is, all these are symptoms of starvation and when one begins to recover from starvation, body systems that have been created to cope with the starvation have to be broken down and new, more resilient systems, have to be rebuilt in their place.
Notice, neuropathies on this list of systems:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

  1. Your patient’s complaints will likely include:
- insomnia
- infertility/amenorrhea/oligomenorrhea
- depression
- slow-to-heal injuries from workouts and distance running
- debilitating fatigue
- neuropathies
- pruritus, rashes, skin conditions
- gastrointestinal distress (constipation, GERD, bloating etc.)

No matter the cause of the starvation, real famine, poverty, eating disorder generated starvation (including so-called "binge eating disorder", being, as it is, repeated reaction to repeated starvation), or yo-yo dieting, the symptoms are blood sugar reactions and tissue breakdown in various parts of the body. These are seen together, not because glucose causes these things, but because they are all effects of starvation.
Starvation is eating under your body's energy requirements. Here's what happens when we do:

BMI and Eating Disorders: It’s All About Undereating — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Everyone is equipped with two ways of surviving an energy deficit in the body for a short time: one way is the body will catabolize cells (losing mass and destroying organs) and the other is that it will suppress metabolic function (slow or stop entire biological systems, such as reproductive functions). However, both these ways happen in different proportions in each individual (and the amount of catabolism vs. metabolic suppression may change over time too)."

The catabolism of tissue that occurs as a result of undereating is necessary to keep us alive. Organs and nerves are damaged in the process. The organs that are damaged due to starvation are those whose damage is blamed erroneously on a high level of blood glucose, as seen in the articles below:

Progression Of Retinal Disease Linked To Cell Starvation
Progression of Retinal Disease Linked to Cell Starvation

https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/47/5/564.full.pdf
Slimmer's Paralysis perineal Neuropathy During Weight Reduction

[Renal function in therapeutic starvation (author's transl)]. - PubMed - NCBI
Renal Function in Therapeutic Starvation

The relatively high glucose level is another mechanism ordered by the brain to keep us alive. This paper:

Association of Clinical Symptomatic Hypoglycemia With Cardiovascular Events and Total Mortality in Type 2 Diabetes: A nationwide population-based study

speaks of Symptomatic Relative Hypoglycemia. This is symptoms of LOW blood glucose, hypoglycemia, even when a glucose reading is "normal" or "high".

"in real-world clinical practice, it is intriguing to identify hypoglycemic events based solely on symptoms or a physician’s diagnosis rather than on glucose levels"

The brain selects its optimum glucose level based on availability of glucose in the environment. It is the undereating of calories, especially glucose calories, that prompts the rise in cortisol which initiates the catabolism of body tissue to keep glucose coming in ample supply. The body operates at 200%, preferentially, as explained here:

FAQ — The Eating Disorder Institute

“When we restrict calorie intake the body has a way to manage it, but it costs.
Most biological systems are run to an overdrive level with certain key clamps put on the system to keep it at an optimal state.It is biologically more energy-intensive and risky to try to run a system right to 100% all the time than to run the system to 200% and just use a few hormones or enzymes to clamp it down to 100%.
Our bodies are probably quite literally built to burn off excess energy in our sleep if there are any unneeded excesses.But restrict your calories and now all of the limiting hormones like leptin, ghrelin and insulin and others are left scrambling because you have just dumped the entire metabolic system to well below its 100% functional level. Leptin is a clamping hormone. With nothing to clamp down on, it plummets in our blood streams and this creates a cascade of shut downs throughout the body."

So, while it may seem wasteful to keep a constant stream of glucose from tissue catabolism in our serum and being eliminated in our urine, that is the body's normal way of functioning. The only way to turn this back-up mechanism off is to supply plenty of calories and glucose sources, especially, in our diet.

What is plenty?

Homeodynamic Recovery Method Guidelines Overview — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Eat the minimum intake for your height, age, weight and sex every single day. It’s a minimum intake and you are both encouraged and expected to eat more. Never restrict food intake.

The Homeodynamic Recovery Method minimum intake guidelines are age-, height-, and sex-matched based on energy intake requirements for equivalent healthy controls. They are based on all the amassed hard data listed in Doubly-Labeled Water Method Trials. I have just stated that these intake levels are for energy-balanced individuals and when you have an eating disorder, you are energy depleted. The reason the minimum intakes are set to these levels is that it’s a reasonable way to get you started. In fact, the HDRM intake guidelines are set lower than many inpatient and residential treatment centers for those with eating disorders because you cannot restore an energy deficit in the body by merely eating as an energy-balanced person might do.

You therefore can expect to eat far more than HDRM minimum intake levels during your energy-restoration process towards reaching remission.

The HDRM food intake guidelines are as follows:

Adult female
You are a 25+ year-old female between 5’0” and 5’8” (152.4 to 173 cm): minimum 2500 kcal/day.

Adult male
You are a 25+ year-old male between 5’4” and 6’0” (162.5 and 183 cm): minimum 3000 kcal/day.

Adolescent female
You are an under 25-year-old female between 5’0” and 5’8” (152.4 to 173 cm): minimum 3000 kcal/day.

Adolescent male
You are an under 25-year-old male between 5’4” and 6’0” (162.5 and 183 cm): minimum 3500 kcal/day.

Outside Height Range
If you are taller than the height guidelines listed above, then expect to add approximately 200 kcal/day to the minimum intake amounts listed for your shorter counterparts (age and sex matched).

If you are shorter than the height guidelines listed above, then you may eat 200 kcal/day less than the minimum intake listed for your taller age and sex matched counterparts; however, keep in mind that these are average intake guidelines for those without an eating disorder—you should find yourself wanting to eat far more than these intake guidelines during your recovery process"

What can be expected of your glucose level when you eat freely of calories and carbohydrates?

Diabetes Mellitus Type 2, Metformin, Disease Risk and You — The Eating Disorder Institute

"But it is very important to note blood glucose levels can be elevated in recovery from an eating disorder and will often resolve of their own accord.2

the vagaries of blood glucose and insulin levels for those actively in recovery from an eating disorder can mimic the onset of diabetes mellitus type 2 but may not actually represent the onset of type 2 at all. Given that spontaneous adjustment of aberrant blood glucose and/or insulin levels back to the norm will occur for most as recovery from an eating disorder progresses, then we would be stretching diagnostic frameworks to refer to something transient and self-correcting as equivalent to diabetes mellitus type 2 in its usual presentation in old age."

It has been my experience that blood glucose levels normalize with daily consumption of nothing less than the minimum calorie intake as described above. The body is the best arbiter of what is normal for any biomarker. Our dynamic bodies will regulate all biomarkers optimally when nutrients and calories are kept at high levels. Plentiful nutrients will come with a high calorie varied diet.

Ray encourages informing ourselves of the science. The science is out there, even if the information gap has kept practitioners in pre-scientific, drug company- fueled methods of treating a biomarker, instead of the real cause of high blood glucose readings, starvation.

This is amazing, thank you! I don't mean to hijack the OP's thread; I'm very appreciative Watubi started it at the exact time when I was researching a similar issue.
I have been eating an RP inspired diet (minus foods I'm allergic to) for several years now but was getting sicker and intolerant to ever longer list of healthy foods. Having Celiac, SIBO, Raynaud's, GERD, LPR, PCOS, psoriasis, gastritis, gastroparesis, migraines, malabsorbtion syndrome, and viral issues I have been teetering on the brink of healthy eating and orthorexia since my 20's and a legit eating disorder in my teens (I'm now 41 BTW).
Last week I got blood work done indicating my fasting blood glucose spiked up to 108, it was in high 80's for the prior 7 years since I started having a yearly test, Glycated Serum protein and A1c were also much higher. Furthermore my HDL cholesterol dropped down to 25 from 60 and LDL spiked up about 30 points from last year (total is now 229). The blood work would not concern me so much if it weren't for the fact that I have peripheral nephropathy happening pretty chronically, polyuria, and dry mouth, plus an increase in frequency of migraines. Weirder yet, besides those things I'm feeling better than I have in years. I recently suffered an extremely severe year and half long illness which I think was viral which nausea and gastritis made it difficult to keep food down, even water. I was eating well cooked potatoes in the evening since they did not worsen my stomach pain but no other starches. Per RP's (and others) advice I quit eating starches all together and my illness quickly improved and after a few months started feeling great, better than I had in years. I am now eating regular meals and upped my calories significantly and have lots more energy. A year ago I couldn't even lift a bag of groceries. But this nephropathy is very concerning and the migraines are rough. After reading your post it sounds like I might be in that refeeding stage were things are balancing out. I'm 5', currently 103 lb.; my concern was that I might have gotten Type 1 diabetes after that viral illness, plus lots of Celiac people get Type 1 or vice versa.
So the question I need to answer to is.. how does one find out if they are in the recovery stage when the symptoms of recovery are the same as the the complications of diabetes?
How does one know the glucose is getting into the cell properly and they are on the road to recovery?
 

Birdie

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,783
Location
USA
My fasting blood glucose went from 150 to 120 to 88 over 2 years due to a RP diet (mainly PUFA and iron depletion along with high calcium intake) and 2 aspirins, 5 cups of coffee, and vitamin K daily, and it's probably even lower now. It has been over a year since I checked. I used to get tired after eating even a moderately carb heavy meal but now I can take in 400 g of sugar in one go with no noticeable negative issues at all. Definitely am not recommending doing that, but just wanted to provide an example showing that there has been a clear improvement in my glucose tolerance.

I would recommend reading RPs articles on diabetes, unsaturated oils, iron, aspirin, and caffeine on his website at raypeat.com. Here are a few (#1 and #4 are different even though the title is the same):

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.
Diabetes, scleroderma, oils and hormones
Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context
Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

Thanks for posting your personal experience and these links. I have an interested friend.
The high calcium intake is a difficult one for him since he can't drink milk. He is fine with cheese, but won't eat a lot of it.
He also eats ice cream and a little Greek yogurt. He takes some eggshell calcium.

Ive read all the articles, but always good to read again.
He takes about 600 mg of aspirin. Very reduced puffs. Tea with milk and coffee with milk/sugar. But not much sugar. Won't increase it. But there is the ice cream every night... And sugar in fruit, oj. Vitamin K yes. Doesn't eat much meat but won't do the caffeine with it.

He does eat white rice in the afternoon. With cheese and a little meat or fish. But no fruit with it... Thanks again. If you see something he's doing, that could be improved peaty wise, let me know. Mittir always had his starch, white rice in the afternoon so... I guess we should have apple juice available. Might help..
 

Birdie

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,783
Location
USA
What do you eat at lunch and dinner?

Your breakfast looks like it would spike cortisol (due to water and insufficient carbs)

- drop the PUFAs
- reduce the fat in the morning meal - if you are burning fat, you can’t burn glucose
- eat balanced, medium sized meals 4 times a day
- add some well-cooked starches and ripe or cooked fruits to every meal .. as you add them back in, 30-40grams per meal of carbohydrate should be manageable
- check potassium, calcium and magnesium levels on Cronometer
- avoid bread, grains, pasta
- eat closer to bed so your liver has glycogen to use through the night. If not, you will produce more cortisol and spike blood sugar through muscle breakdown . Fruit, high-protein Greek yogurt and honey works well for me
- Get a blood glucose monitor and check your response after meals, and add 50mg of aspirin, or niacinamide, occasionally through the day. In fact Haidut’s vit B formula is great for glucose control, and so is his product Pyrucet
- personally, milk and juice spike my boood glucose. Still with whole fruits and use milk minimally.. fluids release the sugars much faster

Helpful. Eating closer to bedtime should help with the nighttime cortisol for this friend too. I've added the 50 mg of niacinamide the way Mitter advised. Might be able to up that to 100 in a few weeks. When I say Mitter, he got it from RP. No grains except the white rice, no pasta, but I make him sourdough bread. He has it once a day with butter along with his DHEA.

Thanks again.
 

Birdie

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,783
Location
USA
If you want to get RPs advice, I would read a couple of the RP articles that @lampofred put up.
That would help to sift through your routine and compare it with Peat's take.
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
How much iodine are you taking? Iodine protocol with 100-150 mg iodine/iodide from Lugol's/LugoTabs (50-62.5 mg 2-3x/day) is what was associated with reduced diabetes symptoms. Megadose vitamin D3 (300-500 IU/kg/day; 10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ K2 MK-4; 400-600 mg chelated magnesium) had a similar effect.

Many things positively affect blood sugar control: vitamin K2 MK-4, chromium, vanadium, glycine, acetyl L-carnitine, etc.

Daily intermittent fasting is also said to increase insulin sensitivity.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
most people get far too much phosphorus and this results in high parathyroid hormone, fibrosis, diminished metabolism, calcification of soft tissues, high blood pressure and ED, all leading to chronically high cortisol and, with PUFA consumption, type 2 diabetes.

I think

1. as close to zero pufa as possible

2. high sugar as it's a low residue carb that doesn't create endotoxins in the colon

3. lowish fat

4. high calcium

5. avoiding raw veggies (except carrot)

help to get rid of diabetes and work in most people. They just hate the high blood sugar that comes from high sugar consumption. But it is only high for a few weeks. And that isn't harmful anyway.
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
1,237
Within 30 minutes of waking Eat a high fat and/or protein meal (50 – 75 grams) (usually our farm eggs and steak, seafood or bacon)
Eggs and bacon are full of PUFA. No bueno.

Within 30 minutes of waking eat fermented food and raw garlic

Gut Flora of diabetics produces too much l-lactate, ammonia, possibly some d-lactate. Lactate messes up with randle cycle. In presence of lactate carbs and fats are not utilized as energy source.
Prebiotics May Negatively Affect Glucose Tolerance And Increase Lactate Production

Immediately drink 16-32oz of ice-cold water (with iodine). DO NOT drink more than 32oz
How much iodine? It could aggravate insulin resistance

Exercise cold thermogenesis and DO NOT let skin temperature fall below 50-55 degrees (up to 1 hour)

Raises FFA. Elevated FFA is a direct cause of diabetes. Messes up randle cycle too.

1. Take probiotics (usually in the form of homemade kombucha

Lactate again.

Stop Omega 3. Or maybe do yourself a favor buy liquid fish oil and take 20-30 grams to see your numbers skyrocketing. Or you can just stop without going through it. I did it, fish oil megadose. Learn from me.

Anyways your Jack Kruse omega-3 fish oil approach will not work as it design to do an opposite.
 
Last edited:

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
Eggs and bacon are full of PUFA. No bueno.



Gut Flora of diabetics produces too much l-lactate, ammonia, possibly some d-lactate. Lactate messes up with randle cycle. In presence of lactate carbs and fats are not utilized as energy source.
Prebiotics May Negatively Affect Glucose Tolerance And Increase Lactate Production


How much iodine? It could aggravate insulin resistance



Raises FFA. Elevated FFA is a direct cause of diabetes. Messes up randle cycle too.



Lactate again.

Stop Omega 3. Or maybe do yourself a favor buy liquid fish oil and take 20-30 grams to see your numbers skyrocketing. Or you can just stop without going through it. I did it, fish oil megadose. Learn from me.

Anyways your Jack Kruse omega-3 fish oil approach will not work as it design to do an opposite.
How to lower such lactate production?
 

Kingpinguin

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
586
I am new to the Ray Peat forum. I have type II diabetes with elevated blood glucose averaging 220. Beta T cell tests show they are producing but going hard core keto made no difference in my numbers and made me feel sluggish with brain fog. I went strict vegan for 3 months and wrecked my health with no significant changes to glucose numbers. I follow the Plant Paradox diet to reduce inflammatory response, felt better but A1c is still high. Now I am following the EPI-Paleo RX diet (by Jack Kruse) feeling fine but my blood sugar is still above 200 on average. Every diet change I stick to for 3 months followed by blood tests. I am not overweight, exercise every day, drink nothing but mineral water eating at sunrise and only again right after sun down. Nothing is working. I need hope that the Ray Peat guidance has worked for someone like me with type II diabetes. Please.. has anyone been able to normalize their high blood sugar using Ray Peats advice?

Eat healthy and sufficiently. Exercise and take niacin + nicotinamide 500mg of each. Berberine also very beneficial for diabetes. Other things I can think of right of the bat is high dose biotin and thiamine and a magnesium supplement.
 

Kelj

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
299
This is amazing, thank you! I don't mean to hijack the OP's thread; I'm very appreciative Watubi started it at the exact time when I was researching a similar issue.
I have been eating an RP inspired diet (minus foods I'm allergic to) for several years now but was getting sicker and intolerant to ever longer list of healthy foods. Having Celiac, SIBO, Raynaud's, GERD, LPR, PCOS, psoriasis, gastritis, gastroparesis, migraines, malabsorbtion syndrome, and viral issues I have been teetering on the brink of healthy eating and orthorexia since my 20's and a legit eating disorder in my teens (I'm now 41 BTW).
Last week I got blood work done indicating my fasting blood glucose spiked up to 108, it was in high 80's for the prior 7 years since I started having a yearly test, Glycated Serum protein and A1c were also much higher. Furthermore my HDL cholesterol dropped down to 25 from 60 and LDL spiked up about 30 points from last year (total is now 229). The blood work would not concern me so much if it weren't for the fact that I have peripheral nephropathy happening pretty chronically, polyuria, and dry mouth, plus an increase in frequency of migraines. Weirder yet, besides those things I'm feeling better than I have in years. I recently suffered an extremely severe year and half long illness which I think was viral which nausea and gastritis made it difficult to keep food down, even water. I was eating well cooked potatoes in the evening since they did not worsen my stomach pain but no other starches. Per RP's (and others) advice I quit eating starches all together and my illness quickly improved and after a few months started feeling great, better than I had in years. I am now eating regular meals and upped my calories significantly and have lots more energy. A year ago I couldn't even lift a bag of groceries. But this nephropathy is very concerning and the migraines are rough. After reading your post it sounds like I might be in that refeeding stage were things are balancing out. I'm 5', currently 103 lb.; my concern was that I might have gotten Type 1 diabetes after that viral illness, plus lots of Celiac people get Type 1 or vice versa.
So the question I need to answer to is.. how does one find out if they are in the recovery stage when the symptoms of recovery are the same as the the complications of diabetes?
How does one know the glucose is getting into the cell properly and they are on the road to recovery?

Ray Peat says:

"Diabetics typically have elevated lactate, which shows that glucose doesn’t have a problem getting into their cells, just getting oxidized.” -Ray Peat, PhD

"Glucose is said to not be able to enter the cell in diabetes, but the presence of lactic acid suggest glucose is entering the cell but is being wasted, producing lactate via inefficient and stress promoting glycolytic metabolism."

So, it is incorrect that glucose does not enter the cells. If it did not, lactic acid could not be produced, but as Methylenewhite correctly says, diabetics produce a lot of lactic acid. This is not because of yogurt eating. It is due to a lack of energy to properly oxidize glucose in the cell and produce carbon dioxide. All of it is due to lack of energy. That is why I suggest never eating below what normal people do eat to support health and normal weight.
Intermittent fasting is often touted as Baccheion suggests, however, there is no way that going so long without eating every day is not going to trigger a cortisol rise. The cortisol rise is the trigger for catabolism and blood sugar rise. This practise is predicated on the notion that glucose comes purely from the diet, which is what people thought before the discovery of cortisol and its catabolic effect, which also raises blood glucose. Since experimentation is useful, we tried intermittent fasting, and it did cause a continuous rise in blood glucose.

All of the ways suggested in this thread probably do work, at least temporarily, to lower blood glucose, but the amount of glucose in the blood is not the essence of the problem. As ecstatic hamster says, the high blood glucose is not what is going to hurt you. But it is a warning, a symptom that your metabolism is being rearranged by your brain because you are starving your body.

As this letter, to be copied and given to the doctors of eating disordered patients because doctors are generally uninformed about the cause of the diseases with which their patients are presenting, states:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

"If you treat these symptoms in the absence of getting the patient to re-energize with enough food to rectify the energy deficit, then you will be pushing the living system and overriding its inherent life-saving energy usage reduction mechanisms. 13"

The "high" blood sugar is a result of life-saving adjustments on the part of the body. What happens if we try to override this mechanism instead of addressing the real issue...the starvation. Whether it's Metformin or insulin or any other substance used to force a lower blood sugar, our bodies will respond by raising the glucose even more, if there is the tissue to use. We are trying to override what the body is doing for itself.

Dealing with a "high" blood sugar level is all about your understanding and comfort with the science. Anxiety is the usual outcome of these kinds of diagnoses. Anxiety is the basic reason for an eating disorder. In working with your doctor, you might show him/her this information and suggest a wait and see approach. In the case of even type I diabetes, the pancreas can be regenerated by refeeding. Ray mentions this:

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

"Animals that have been made diabetic with relatively low doses of the poison streptozotocin can recover functional beta-cells spontaneously,"

"In 1857, M. Piorry in Paris and William Budd in Bristol, England, reasoned that if a patient was losing a pound of sugar every day in 10 liters of urine, and was losing weight very rapidly, and had an intense craving for sugar, it would be reasonable to replace some of the lost sugar, simply because the quick weight loss of diabetes invariably led to death. Keeping patients from eating what they craved seemed both cruel and futile.

Budd described another patient, a young man who had become too weak to work and who was losing weight at an extreme rate. Budd's prescription included 8 ounces of white sugar and 4 ounces of honey every day, and again, instead of increasing the amount of glucose in the urine, the amount decreased quickly as the patient began eating almost as much sugar as was being lost initially, and then as the loss of sugar in the urine decreased, the patient gained weight and recovered his strength."

Phases of Recovery From An Eating Disorder Part 5 — The Eating Disorder Institute

"If you are a reader of the The Eating Disorder Institute forums, then you are likely well aware of the fact that many people struggle greatly through the process of healing. Some have even had full-blown medical crises: pancreatitis, diabetic attacks, worsening of preexisting conditions (eczema, allergic reaction, digestive distress, inflammatory responses of one kind or another) and one or two have even faced re-feeding syndrome."

From the same article this truth:

"Swelling (edema) is also a fundamental body defense to protect the body from further damage or infection and to facilitate healing. The process of healing involves natural cell death (apoptosis); reabsorption and excretion; cell growth and division; and cell differentiation and movement. Macrophages are a dedicated cell type responsible for chomping up damaged cells, triggering fluid ingress and retention, and producing insulin-like-growth-factor-1 to speed up cellular growth and division. 5 The side effects of their presence in our bodies are, of course, swelling and pain.

However the absence of macrophages will result in an equivalent absence of restoration and healing. "

The inflamed pancreas is a healing pancreas. You may need your doctor to help you through some symptoms of healing. For example, "refeeding syndrome", in the early days of upping calorie intake, which causes dangerously low phosphorous levels, a concern about the levels of which was mentioned in this thread.

Also, the gut microbiome is mentioned in the above article:

"As with everything else in your body, those friendly bacteria have suffered huge losses thanks to restrictive eating behaviors. The bacterial colonies will be restored with continued re-feeding, but initially their low colony counts due to starvation can mean diarrhea, gas, bloating, poorly digested foods, and also systemic signs that the gut lining is allowing the wrong things through to the bloodstream (skin rashes and itchiness). 14"

As you can see, in each case, addressing the energy intake of your body, addresses all these issues. Ray Peats articles are invaluable in explaining what is going on.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom