Hand, wrist + finger Pain despite optimal diet

[freyasam]

I have bad pain in my finger joints, finger tips, wrists, hands, and forearms, and it's making it hard to earn a living.

It's been going on for at least 10 years and has gotten so bad I can barely do my work at a computer. I have exhausted every possibility with ergonomic workstations, done physical therapy, etc. There's got to be some way to lower inflammation in my hands and arms. I also have chronically swollen fingers. Have been diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome twice with an electroconductivity test and was offered surgery but the outcomes on carpal tunnel surgery are pretty bad. Besides, the root cause, not to mention the finger pain and swelling, wouldn't be addressed.

Been eating Peat inspired for 8 years. My diet is optimized as well as it can be. I drink seven or eight cups of 1% milk daily, a quart of Orange juice, ripe fruit, shellfish, liver occasionally, cheese, well cooked mushrooms, a daily carrot, oat bran and corn tortillas -- though I have experimented with starch free, and it makes me depressed and no less inflamed. Have tried pretty much every Peaty supplement and drug.

I take 5,000 IU vitamin d, vitamin k, T3 and a combo thyroid drug (an entire cynomel and 1/4 cynoplus), 900 mg aspirin, cascara sagrada, 100 mg pregnenolone, progesterone, sunlight, and I supplement with B vitamins as the pain is unbearable when I don't do that.

I also have to eat shrimp once a week or the pain becomes unbearable. But it only helps a little -- eating it more frequently doesn't help more. For some reason, I seem to need above average amounts of the nutrients in shrimp. I'm assuming that would be selenium and copper. Any thoughts on this? As you can tell, I'm pretty well versed in Ray Peat's work and have experimented a lot with his diet but still can't seem to get stress hormones and inflammation down. I have other health problems but this one is impacting my ability to work.

 

[exile]

Do you think you are at the optimal dosage of the thyroid? For carpal tunnel all I’ve seen him say is hypothyroid. My other thought would be to try to topically apply the progesterone to the hand if you haven’t. He talks about topical application for pain, although arthritis pain, near the end of this article.

Blocking Tissue Destruction

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[SamYo123]

Address the whole bio-mechanical system

www.functionalpatterns.com

 

[dreamcatcher]

Hmm progesterone didn't help with my chronic back pain (and widespread pain) and I was even misdiagnosed by my doctor. A few years later I found out that I had fibromyalgia. I tried to heal it, using a metabolic approach - I eliminated all fruits and vegetables and only ate rice, potatoes, meat, seafood, dairy and eggs for 5 months. My chronic pain was 90% + gone in 2 days, after 3 years of continuous pain. Now I can include more food variety in my diet.
Have you tried replacing fruits with starches? Or experimenting with only eating a few types of foods and see how you react to them - as Danny Roddy suggested?
My other thought, did you lower your estrogen levels too much by taking 900mg aspirin daily? Too low estrogen might also contribute to pain.

 

[ceileachair]

Curious - do you drink tea/coffee? I developed all those exact symptoms after the clot shot last year. Coffee makes it worse in particular.

Since giving up caffeine (and decaf coffee etc) it has massively improved and my blood flow is much better. I eat more starches too. Weirdly since giving up coffee I find starches so much easier to digest and provide warmth in hands etc.

 

[Regina]

I have bad pain in my finger joints, finger tips, wrists, hands, and forearms, and it's making it hard to earn a living.

It's been going on for at least 10 years and has gotten so bad I can barely do my work at a computer. I have exhausted every possibility with ergonomic workstations, done physical therapy, etc. There's got to be some way to lower inflammation in my hands and arms. I also have chronically swollen fingers. Have been diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome twice with an electroconductivity test and was offered surgery but the outcomes on carpal tunnel surgery are pretty bad. Besides, the root cause, not to mention the finger pain and swelling, wouldn't be addressed.

Been eating Peat inspired for 8 years. My diet is optimized as well as it can be. I drink seven or eight cups of 1% milk daily, a quart of Orange juice, ripe fruit, shellfish, liver occasionally, cheese, well cooked mushrooms, a daily carrot, oat bran and corn tortillas -- though I have experimented with starch free, and it makes me depressed and no less inflamed. Have tried pretty much every Peaty supplement and drug.

I take 5,000 IU vitamin d, vitamin k, T3 and a combo thyroid drug (an entire cynomel and 1/4 cynoplus), 900 mg aspirin, cascara sagrada, 100 mg pregnenolone, progesterone, sunlight, and I supplement with B vitamins as the pain is unbearable when I don't do that.

I also have to eat shrimp once a week or the pain becomes unbearable. But it only helps a little -- eating it more frequently doesn't help more. For some reason, I seem to need above average amounts of the nutrients in shrimp. I'm assuming that would be selenium and copper. Any thoughts on this? As you can tell, I'm pretty well versed in Ray Peat's work and have experimented a lot with his diet but still can't seem to get stress hormones and inflammation down. I have other health problems but this one is impacting my ability to work.

How about adding a magnesium supplement.
Are you taking cascara as an everyday supp? I think that should not be taken chronically.
Though you might run yourself on a course of minocycline.

 

[freyasam]

So the thing is I've had the pain for 10 years and it hasn't responded to taking or not taking any supplements or adjusting the diet in any way. Except it does improve somewhat with shrimp, but not totally. Knowing shrimp has selenium, I took a selenium supplement last week and felt awful brain fog from it.

I've taken magnesium glycinate in various forms off and on-- still pain. I only started the cascara a few months ago, but I had the pain before that. I've gone starch free, stopped the aspirin, etc.

This is really just the tip of the iceberg. I have disabling ME/CFS and am depressed and overweight. I know it's all connected and I suspect my stress hormones are very high, especially since the weight gain is central. But no amount of peaty diet / supplements ... or non-peaty diet and supps seem to help.

 

[freyasam]

How about adding a magnesium supplement.
Are you taking cascara as an everyday supp? I think that should not be taken chronically.
Though you might run yourself on a course of minocycline.

I don't want to take cascara every day, but for the very constipated, peat's suggestions aren't enough, and I figure it's better than being constipated.
Antibiotics render me a useless puddle of depression anxiety and fatigue. Can't go there again.

 

[Lonewolfx]

Look into the work of Dr. John Sarno.

 

[Tim Lundeen]

You could try boron, it often helps joint pain.

And 4-herb synergy is excellent: 4 Herb Synergy Gold Liposome Supplement - 4 Traditional Herbs

 

[mostlylurking]

I have bad pain in my finger joints, finger tips, wrists, hands, and forearms, and it's making it hard to earn a living.

I developed rheumatoid arthritis in my hands, including my thumb joints at the wrists, in 2014. I got relief within a week of getting prescription natural desiccated thyroid medication from my endocrinologist. The endo worked with me for about 9 months fine tuning the dosage of the thyroid med. The dose I needed to resolve the rheumatoid arthritis was 180mg, which equals to 3 grains of thyroid. Many people need this much and some people need more than that. You may benefit greatly if you can find an endocrinologist willing to work with you to get your dose optimized.

I take 5,000 IU vitamin d, vitamin k, T3 and a combo thyroid drug (an entire cynomel and 1/4 cynoplus), 900 mg aspirin, cascara sagrada, 100 mg pregnenolone, progesterone, sunlight, and I supplement with B vitamins as the pain is unbearable when I don't do that.

I don't know how much thyroid med is in a cynomel; it may be 1 grain = 60mg? Lots of people need more than that. I sure do. So the b vitamins help? Could be a clue. Thiamine deficiency blocks oxidative metabolism just like hypothyroidism does.

This is really just the tip of the iceberg. I have disabling ME/CFS and am depressed and overweight. I know it's all connected and I suspect my stress hormones are very high, especially since the weight gain is central.

ME/CFS: I was diagnosed with this about 20 years ago. Thiamine deficiency is implicated in this problem. I no longer have any symptoms of CFS; I've been high dosing thiamine hcl for about 18 months and am symptom free now. I am both hypothyroid AND have issues with thiamine deficiency/functional blockage. Addressing both problems solved my long term health issues. Thiamine deficiency creates thyroid problems.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Please note that a thiamine deficiency can cause hypothyroid symptoms AND too much thyroid supplement can cause a thiamine deficiency. It would be helpful if you could find a good endocrinologist to help you.

Depression is tied to both hypothyroidism and also to thiamine deficiency because both of these reduce the energy in the brain.

Weight gain is also tied to both hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency because both block healthy oxidative metabolism.

I don't want to take cascara every day, but for the very constipated, peat's suggestions aren't enough, and I figure it's better than being constipated.

Constipation can be a symptom of hypothyroidism and it can also be a symptom of thiamine deficiency. Addressing both issues could be very helpful.

 

[dreamcatcher]

I don't want to take cascara every day, but for the very constipated, peat's suggestions aren't enough, and I figure it's better than being constipated.
Antibiotics render me a useless puddle of depression anxiety and fatigue. Can't go there again.

Starches would help with constipation, containing more fiber.

 

[Lilac]

I had carpal tunnel from my early 30s on, for two decades. It disappeared before I found Ray Peat, when I did the Wheat Belly diet (no gluten). I also have never had a stiff neck upon waking up since then, even though I now eat some wheat (organic). So my suggestion is to try going grain-free and use well-cooked potatoes for the starch you require.

 

[freyasam]

I developed rheumatoid arthritis in my hands, including my thumb joints at the wrists, in 2014. I got relief within a week of getting prescription natural desiccated thyroid medication from my endocrinologist. The endo worked with me for about 9 months fine tuning the dosage of the thyroid med. The dose I needed to resolve the rheumatoid arthritis was 180mg, which equals to 3 grains of thyroid. Many people need this much and some people need more than that. You may benefit greatly if you can find an endocrinologist willing to work with you to get your dose optimized.

I don't know how much thyroid med is in a cynomel; it may be 1 grain = 60mg? Lots of people need more than that. I sure do. So the b vitamins help? Could be a clue. Thiamine deficiency blocks oxidative metabolism just like hypothyroidism does.

ME/CFS: I was diagnosed with this about 20 years ago. Thiamine deficiency is implicated in this problem. I no longer have any symptoms of CFS; I've been high dosing thiamine hcl for about 18 months and am symptom free now. I am both hypothyroid AND have issues with thiamine deficiency/functional blockage. Addressing both problems solved my long term health issues. Thiamine deficiency creates thyroid problems.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Please note that a thiamine deficiency can cause hypothyroid symptoms AND too much thyroid supplement can cause a thiamine deficiency. It would be helpful if you could find a good endocrinologist to help you.

Depression is tied to both hypothyroidism and also to thiamine deficiency because both of these reduce the energy in the brain.

Weight gain is also tied to both hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency because both block healthy oxidative metabolism.

Constipation can be a symptom of hypothyroidism and it can also be a symptom of thiamine deficiency. Addressing both issues could be very helpful.

A cynomel is 25 mcg T3. I'm trying to increase the dose but I get very uncomfortable symptoms of anxiety, insomnia and overheating when I do. Plus there aren't enough hours in the day to take more than 1.5 pills since you can't go above 3mcg per hour, per Peat and my experience. Cynoplus (combo t3/t4) makes my hands shake so I keep that low.

Yeah I tried high dose thiamin a few months ago, working up to slowly increase the dose, and it caused some new symptoms I can't remember right now. I've tried so many things, hard to keep it all straight. The main issue for me is that I can't take all the extra supps high-dose thiamin requires. Mg, potass, b complex, riboflavin, etc etc... that's playing with fire for me. Magnesium supplements always cause problems for me, for one, and I've tried countless brands and forms. I always take the purest form, usually in a powder. My system is highly stressed and sensitized.

 

[mostlylurking]

A cynomel is 25 mcg. I'm trying to increase the dose but I get very uncomfortable symptoms of anxiety, insomnia and overheating when I do.

Yeah I tried high dose thiamin a few months ago, working up to slowly increase the dose, and it caused some new symptoms I can't remember right now. I've tried so many things, hard to keep it all straight. The main issue for me is that I can't take all the extra supps high-dose thiamin requires. Mg, potass, b complex, riboflavin, etc etc... that's playing with fire for me. Magnesium supplements always cause problems for me, for one, and I've tried countless brands and forms. I always take the purest form, usually in a powder. My system is highly stressed and sensitized.

I found a conversion that says that a grain of natural desiccated thyroid med equals to 74mcg of T4. I have no clue if that is helpful here or not. At any rate, it sounds like you don't need more thyroid if you are getting those hyperthyroid symptoms when you try to increase the dose.

In my case, I developed much better tolerance for my magnesium supplement when I'd been on thiamine for a short time. Thiamine is supposed to make tolerating magnesium easier. Dr. Costantini (treated Parkinson's Disease patients with high dose thiamine) didn't believe in giving his patients a bunch of additional things, maybe just a b-complex pill and maybe 75mg magnesium a week. His site: HIGH-D0SE THIAMINE (HDT) THERAPY for Parkinson's Disease . I've read on line (somewhere) that the amount of potassium needed is in 8 oz of orange juice.

I think that the most important thing when trying to work things out with your health is to listen to what your body is trying to tell you. But if you are hypersensitive to everything, that can make interpreting what it's trying to tell you really hard. I like Ray Peat's advice about always starting with the smallest amount and watching for reactions to it.

 

[Ania]

I had been suffering from reumatoidalne arthritis for 17 years before I found out by accident that milk was causing it.
Try to eliminate any dairy product icluding butter for a month. If nothing changes you will know it is not the reason. I think it is worth trying. It is not a rare case. During the years of researching it I found many instances of cases like mine.

 

[freyasam]

In my case, I developed much better tolerance for my magnesium supplement when I'd been on thiamine for a short time. Thiamine is supposed to make tolerating magnesium easier.

I don't think my issue is tolerating the magnesium, but rather the additives and fillers or toxic by-products in most supplements. Ray has always talked about how toxic so many supplements are and I have found that to be true. The brand I've been trying to take is pure bulk magnesium glycinate. It says it is free of additives and is just a powder. But you have to take 2,200 mg of it to get 400 mg magnesium. I don't understand what is all the extra weight if there is only magnesium in it.

The symptom I get from most supplements is a very sore throat and vocal cord pain, so it makes it painful to speak. I also get this symptom almost every time I eat out because of some toxic ingredient most restaurants use. So I think this is telling me that most processed and manufactured food and supplements upset my gut.

 

[freyasam]

I had been suffering from reumatoidalne arthritis for 17 years before I found out by accident that milk was causing it.
Try to eliminate any dairy product icluding butter for a month. If nothing changes you will know it is not the reason. I think it is worth trying. It is not a rare case. During the years of researching it I found many instances of cases like mine.

I might try that at some point. I had to work so hard to be able to tolerate the milk! And I've only been drinking milk for a year, but the hand and wrist pain is over 10 years.

 

[WombOfFuturity]

But you have to take 2,200 mg of it to get 400 mg magnesium. I don't understand what is all the extra weight if there is only magnesium in it.

The extra weight is the two glycine molecules for every one molecule of magnesium, hence why it is often called magnesium bisglycinate or diglycinate.

 

[mostlylurking]

I don't think my issue is tolerating the magnesium, but rather the additives and fillers or toxic by-products in most supplements. Ray has always talked about how toxic so many supplements are and I have found that to be true. The brand I've been trying to take is pure bulk magnesium glycinate. It says it is free of additives and is just a powder. But you have to take 2,200 mg of it to get 400 mg magnesium. I don't understand what is all the extra weight if there is only magnesium in it.

The symptom I get from most supplements is a very sore throat and vocal cord pain, so it makes it painful to speak. I also get this symptom almost every time I eat out because of some toxic ingredient most restaurants use. So I think this is telling me that most processed and manufactured food and supplements upset my gut.

The magnesium glycinate from BulkSupplements might (maybe) have a little higher amount of magnesium but maybe not. The balance of the product is glycinate, which is a salt (or ester) of glycine. You can find more about it by searching online.

A very sore throat would certainly get my attention. Have you had a doctor look at your throat? Is it swollen? Inflamed? Do you have silver amalgam fillings in any teeth? Have you ever had any? Do you get dental xrays? Do you have any teeth with a root canal?