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Hairloss Blood Work: Low T + High DHT + High Progesterone

  1. I've been going through a lot of tests to try and see if there's something that could be causing my early-onset MPB. I recently received my blood work back and found interesting results.

    • Free T was low but DHT was at the upper limit.
    • My progesterone is high. Double the higher end amount for men.
    According to many theories here, these would be optimal stats to have in terms of hair loss which leaves me confused.

    This leaves me wondering what causes high DHT when T is low, and also if there is a reason my progesterone would be so elevated. Any thoughts on all this?
     
  2. Test is protective of hair. DHT is a stress hormone if T is low I believe. Your Estrogen might be really low.
     
  3. @Trix Here are my estrogen results according to a recent dutch test...

    646526973_ScreenShot2019-08-20at2_10_58PM.thumb.png.aa0c87938fb17354186fa7dea0f8ed2e.png 992787684_ScreenShot2019-08-20at2_11_13PM.thumb.png.906745fc984c04d34a8fbb12875711a4.png
     
  4. I am no expert on the steroid pathways and how all of this works, but I have a wild guess. As a layman I could only imagine your T to be low due to it so quickly be converted into DHT (since T is the only direct precursor of DHT). That would require a high 5a-reductase activity (which is an enzyme). Afaik enzymes do not get "used up" in such a conversion process but are "blocked" (as they are used as catalyst in the process). That again could mean that all your 5a-reductase is "blocked" in the non-stop conversion of T to DHT, so it can not be used for the conversion of progesterone into DHP (the precursor of allopregnanolone), which could leave you with high progesterone levels. Do you have any low allopregnanolone symptoms? Still this would leave the question WHY that enzyme is all used for test conversion but not for prog conversion...
     
  5. @Peater Griffin Very interesting hypothesis! What are some low allopregnanolone symptoms? A quick search of the forum says depression is a common one.

    I'll actually leave some more testing here because I think this is pertinent. It appears that I might have higher than normal 5-ar activity.

    2017591337_ScreenShot2019-08-20at2_12_07PM.thumb.png.fcccc3e17b3ebb16a54aa0856faee9eb.png
     
  6. My hormonal situation is really similar to yours. The only difference is that my DHT is actually double of the upper limit. This is causing hair loss and acne (acne is what bothers me the most).
    How old are you?
     
  7. wait, free T was low or total T? or both?those are two very different things. Also what pattern is your mpb? are you 100% sure it isn’t a more mature hairline?
     
  8. Your prolactin? Do you have allergies?
     
  9. Low T/high DHT means prolactin/serotonin/ACTH is high. As your energy production declines and metabolism lowers, you lose the ability to make enough pregnenolone to suppress stress and produce more of the adrenal androgens and other downstream steroids instead. The increased adrenal androgens cause balding.

    Cortisol lowers ACTH, pregnenolone/sugar/aspirin lower both cortisol and ACTH.
     
  10. @victormgc I'm 29. If you're younger, I would expect the DHT to be higher but double the upper limit is crazy.
     
  11. @Kammas I have T tests from both the DUTCH test and some blood work. The blood one is Total T, the urine test I'm not sure.

    Screen Shot 2019-10-18 at 6.09.22 PM.png Screen Shot 2019-10-18 at 6.10.16 PM.png

    100% sure it's not just a mature hairline. See the unfortunate evidence below lol...

    IMG_5698.JPG
     
  12. @Broken man Prolactin is in the middle of the specturm it seems. I assumed this would be elevated but the test was lower than I thought it would be...

    Screen Shot 2019-10-18 at 6.15.36 PM.png
     
  13. Prolactin is higher than idea. I have a prolactin around 10 and same hair line. Hm
     
  14. I am not sure but think that Ray recommend prolactin below 5, do you have fat around hips or abdomen section?
     

  15. There is no theory here that high progesterone leads to hairloss, quite the contrary that low progesterone leads to hairloss
    A theory is that high progesterone will lower dht, in this case it is not so, but the great majority do not really do any bloodwork it's a lot of guesswork.


    Are you stressed? Do you have anxiety? Are you worried often? Or none of these were present until you got concerned about the hair?
     
  16. We are saying the same thing. I was pointing out that many people suggest that we lose our hair because of low progesterone, which is not true in my case at least. The DHT theory seems tricky and people seem split on whether or not it does cause hair loss.

    From what I've gathered, a lot of this seems to point to some form of adrenal issue. However, I don't really feel all that stressed so I'm not sure if that is the issue.
     
  17. This is good to know. I'll do more work on lowering prolactin.

    There is a bit of fat around the mid-section, but not too much. I have visible upper abs but the thighs, butt and lower abs gain fat very quickly.
     
  18. Yeah, so the progesterone is so high and the DHT is not low. This is a major difference between guesswork and bloodwork.


    I see total Testosterone is in serum 429.74 ng/dl (14.9 nmol/L), which is almost low total testosterone, definitely not optimal, but for doctors they could care less, you are still in the range and actually many people around around that range in reality.
    Lots of Androsterone excreted in urine, seems interesting, curious if this is good actually?
    What was your serum DHT value and serum Progesterone value?
     
  19. I mean people would say that taking higher quantities of progesterone will lower DHT.
     
  20. High DHT? Where do you see that?
     
  21. I was asking the OP that, all I see is low DHT in urine analysis.
     
  22. I would ask anyone, what they think of so much Androsterone being excreted in urine, is that normal?
     
  23. Exactly!

    High Estrone is the analysis which would indicate more estrogen in the tissue. Not surprising for hair loss.
     
  24. Bloodwork. Low DHT was shown in the urine analysis. My bad for not posting it originally. See below. DHT is 881.

    Screen Shot 2019-10-22 at 7.39.34 PM.png Screen Shot 2019-10-22 at 7.39.34 PM.png
     
  25. @Kunstruct I realized I didn't post the progesterone bloodwork either, just the urine test. I've attached it.

    In theory, it should be strange that both DHT and Progesterone are on the higher end at the same time, no?

    Screen Shot 2019-10-22 at 7.44.31 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2019-10-22 at 7.44.31 PM.png
     
  26. @CLASH

    Diet is peaty, at least for the last 6-8 months. OJ and a few eggs in the AM with a lot of salt. Oysters once a week. Plenty of cheese and milk. Beef and rice or mashed potatoes for dinner. I've tried to avoid gluten a lot in the last few months.
     
  27. i also have/had high progesterone... i only tested it once, i should really get it retested, but this is the best theory i could find in doing research.... maybe not enough potassium? i don't know if this is the end all be all, but it would be worth it to make sure you are hitting the daily limit.

    Chronic potassium depletion increases adrenal progesterone production that is necessary for efficient renal retention of potassium.


    Modern dietary habits are characterized by high-sodium and low-potassium intakes, each of which was correlated with a higher risk for hypertension. In this study, we examined whether long-term variations in the intake of sodium and potassium induce lasting changes in the plasma concentration of circulating steroids by developing a mathematical model of steroidogenesis in mice. One finding of this model was that mice increase their plasma progesterone levels specifically in response to potassium depletion. This prediction was confirmed by measurements in both male mice and men. Further investigation showed that progesterone regulates renal potassium handling both in males and females under potassium restriction, independent of its role in reproduction. The increase in progesterone production by male mice was time dependent and correlated with decreased urinary potassium content. The progesterone-dependent ability to efficiently retain potassium was because of an RU486 (a progesterone receptor antagonist)-sensitive stimulation of the colonic hydrogen, potassium-ATPase (known as the non-gastric or hydrogen, potassium-ATPase type 2) in the kidney. Thus, in males, a specific progesterone concentration profile induced by chronic potassium restriction regulates potassium balance.


    Chronic potassium depletion increases adrenal progesterone production that is necessary for efficient renal retention of potassium. - PubMed - NCBI
     
  28. This is typical of MPB: low test, high DHT, high estrogen.
    Virtually all studies done on the hormonal profile of men with MPB equate to the above.

    DHT and e2 is a symptom of excess inflammation.
    Something you're doing is creating it;
    - excess adipose tissue
    - micro nutrient deficiencies (track via cronometer)
    - consumption of inflammatory foods (individual; usual suspect are dairy, soy, gluten)
    - dry/damaged skin (moisturize the entire body daily)
    - poor sleep (8 hours minimum, same time each night, complete darkness)
    - poor circadian rhythm (wake with the sun, eat fruit immediately upon waking, sungaze into morning sun, no food after sundown)
    - excess stress
    - avoidance of sun light (15+ minutes in sunlight per day with as much skin exposed as possible)

    Fix any of the above issues that apply and the symptoms (high e2, high dht, low test - and hence the hairloss) will subside.
    Regrowth is trickier. Topical cyclosporine-a and GHK-CU is worth a try.
     
  29. If I had to guess what's causing the hairloss based on the dietary template you described I'd say it was the dairy. Dairy is high in quite a few hormones including estrogen, 5ar reduced steroids, progesterone and others. Its also contains opiates that can increase prolactin and lower dopamine. These factors overall can possibly lead to increased prolactin on your blood test which lowers your testosterone and/or push your test towards dht. I've only seen a select group of people tolerate dairy well, many others are hormonal nightmares from it.

    On a practical level I think experimenting with dropping all dairy would be worthwhile and replace it with meat, select seafood and eggs. I'd broaden the range of whole fruits you where taking in, as well as 100% juices and salt to taste, no need to add large quantities of salt. As for fats I'd use beef tallow, chocolate, cocoa butter, and coconut oil. Butter wont have the opiate effect but it will have the hormone effect. I'd also add in a carrot with each meal or so for some fiber to keep your regular (in conjunction with the whole fruit).

    In order to regrow hair, I have seen some good reports with microneedle with a 1.5mm derminator every 2 weeks. I'm not a fan of the pharma drugs currently available for regrowth, the side effects and mechanisms of the drugs are often problematic and a bit risky in many cases.
     
  30. Regrowth, especially on temples is basically impossible without trans route.
     
  31. what were you eating before? when did the baldness start? how do you feel eating this diet, have things improved or stayed the same ( both with hair loss and general wellebeing)
     
  32. Yeah that is interesting and strange. Your Progesterone level is high for males, but not something ultra high. I though is going to be something like 0.400 ng/ml.
    I am sure pretty much everyone will choose to ignore this fact because it does not fit the typical theories thrown around.
    For example, if you would have come and said, look I am losing hair, a lot of guys could have said, your progesterone is low and DHT cannot be inhibited, because of no analysis.

    Now I do not know how much lower DHT will help, many people have DHT around 350-400 pg/ml and still losing hair.
    If you have [posted this one other forums I am sure castration would have recommended for 881 pg/ml DHT


    On the subject that you have high Estradiol. All I see is excreted Estradiol in urine.
     
  33. definitely interested to know how @Orangeyouglad feels with those hormones. most evidence shows even a perfection of hormones will never bring back a normal hairline. Total T at below the the middle is never a good sign though for anyone
     
  34. Even strong anti androgens work until they don't. Nuking DHT to the ground stops working at some point in time. There's something else to the equation and I HIGHLY doubt you can narrow it to only hormonal issues.
     
  35. @haidut
    What do you think of such large levels of Androsterone being excreted in urine compared to serum lower Test levels, serum high Progesterone levels, serum high DHT levels.
    This is not a matter I have seen talked about, could it be something relevant?
     
  36. im absolutely convinced all MPB relates to high estrogen.

    how is your libido out of interest?
     
  37. There are different types of estrogen though.
     
  38. im not arguing with that
     
  39. Take some letrozole and see how quickly your hair falls out. Then go look at the bodybuilders rubbing bi-estro cream on their bald scalps achieving regrowth even on large doses of androgens. Then let me know if you still believe estrogens cause hair loss.
     
  40. Would you say carrot fiber is the most reliable and safest? I have dropped dairy also and found it has helped a number of issues. Do you think you could add other fiberous vegetables like broccoli perhaps, although not peaty....I find it agrees with me when well cooked.
     
  41. @EIRE24
    I actually get the bulk of my fiber from whole fruit. I ate broccoli for a while but eventually i got symptoms of hypothyroidism from it. From what I read it needs to be boiled for something like 20-30 minutes to get rid of the goitrogens. It also can have a high amount of nitrates. By the time you boil it to reduce most of the goitrogens I would guess is offers relatively little nutritional value overall. In general
    I think fruit would be better overall but gotta see what works for you. I personally either dont like or find most vegetables disagree with me. Prior to implementing Peat's principles I was doing paleo and even then the only vegetables that i'd eat were greens (spinach, kale, broccoli) boiled to mush and carrots.

    The fruit I eat that has a decent amount of fiber includes dragon fruit, pineapple, blueberries, jackfruit, peaches, sometimes grapes, cherries depending on the season, raspberries, cherimoya pulp, passion fruit pulp, acerola pulp and any other fruit that agrees with me that I can find. I try to get around 20g of fiber a day but often get much more because I enjoy fruit so much. Most of the fruit I eat and buy is frozen, as it usually riper and cheaper. Also, if starch doesnt bother you, you can get a decent amount of fiber from tubers like yams or potatoes as well. As for carrots, I buy yellow, purple and white carrots more than the orange ones.
     
  42. I see, thanks for the reply. I have issues with fruit due to the acidity and a stomach ulcer which is unfortunate. I may try and incorporate it again and look for some less acidic fruit.

    Do you worry about pairing the fruit with the animal meats you eat with the vitamin C and iron? I must try and look for some carrots that are not orange. I live in Ireland (obviously with the name) and have never seen other coloured carrots.
     
  43. @EIRE24
    Vit C doesnt increase heme iron absorption only non-heme iron. Most of the animal protein is heme iron so it doesnt make much difference either way. I'd be more worried about supplemental iron, fortified iron products, and infection/ inflammation causing iron retention in ferritin than iron from eating meat or seafood.

    With that said bood donation a few times a year, aspirin use, pomegranate juice, cranberry juice are helpful for chelating excess iron.
     
  44. @olive This is great stuff. Thanks for sharing. I can work on the sleep and getting more sunlight.

    I'm wondering if calcification could be a cause here. I posted another thread here about chronic levels of high serum calcium:What's The Cause Of High Calcium?

    This goes along with others thoughts that calcification is a root cause of hair loss:
    If Calcification Is The Root Of Hair Loss - How To Reverse It? (Magnesium , D, A, K2, Potassium)
    How Could You Break Down Topical Calcification And Fibrosis
    Scalp Calcification

    Thoughts?
     
  45. I'm off the dairy for right now anyway just to test things out so I'll keep that going. Since I also have high serum calcium, I am a bit concerned about dropping dairy, as I think Peat has stated that low calcium intake leads to calcium being leached from your bones.

    Good recommendations for the dietary stuff. I eat a lot of salt because my body really seems to crave it.

    Regarding the regrowth, right now I'm on Minoxidill foam, and dermarolling 1mm 1 x week. I also started doing redlight too so we'll see how that works.
     
  46. Standard American diet but nothing too terrible. When I was younger it was a lot of garbage food. I'm 29 now and for the last two years my diet has been cleaned up much more.

    Hairloss on a Peat inspired diet has stayed the same, maybe even gotten worse, but that could just be time. In regards to the way I feel, I generally feel pretty great. I'd say that I'm more confident than before and my temps have gone up. I gained a bit of fat when I started, but I still have some visible abs.

    The last thing I'll note is that I was on Finasteride for a couple of years and finally ditched it a little over a year ago. I'm thinking that coming off of that attributed to some of the slight worsening in the hair loss.
     
  47. It's not terrible but much worse than 4-5 years ago. Then I felt very driven by it. Now, it's more of an afterthought. I kind of go through my day without chasing or thinking about it. I have no trouble during sex though in terms of EQ.
     
  48. I know it sounds terrible and many guys including myself would say it's not worth it, but the fact is, in all my self experimentation, the best hair health only came when my libido and sexual function wa at its lowest. in other words I was asexual. progesterone is one example of something that's amazing against MPB, but destroys libido.

    there's a reason why the only thing that big pharma has found to halt hair loss- finasteride, also destroys male sexual function. male sex hormones are so intertwined with MPB. and I think estrogen/ prolactin is the major reason.

    the fact is, all those men out there taking finasteride, don't realise they can get the same mpb halting effects from natural bioavailable progesterone without the long term risks and alongside the many other benefits progesterone offers.

    if I want my libido and errections back I just stop progesterone for 1-2 days and take some high dose k2 mk4 to boost testosterone (this works incredibly well). the problem is once testosterone goes back up and therefore estrogen, the MPB process gets back on course.
     
  49. @ddjd That is too simplistic. Many users here have tried progesterone for hair loss with no positive effect. Blocking estrogen causes hair loss in some. Lowering prolactin doesn’t help for some either.

    I’ve had periods of no hair loss and high libido as well as no libido with hair loss. It’s more complex than that.
     
  50. The OP is not low on progesterone, actually his progesterone is high.
     
  51. @brix @Kunstruct I'm just talking about my own situation. I know for a fact that progesterone works. the complexity seems to come from the fact that we're so biologically diverse and that as you say, it's very hard to pin point, broadly speaking, what is a single cause
     
  52. This makes me curious, if you do some analysis, your Progesterone can be even higher than the OP?
    How about your DHT, is it high or low? If you look at the op DHT is not "inhibited" by high Progesterone.
     
  53. the one time I tested DHT it was very low
     
  54. This is what makes me question the belief that progesterone is protective against hair loss. People have said high progesterone is what protects women from hair loss.

    @ddjd I'm more inclined to agree with @brix about the libido/hair loss connection, but of course, I want to have both. I just don't seem to notice more shedding when my libido is high. Also, there are plenty of men with high libidos and perfect hairlines. As you said, it's different for each individual. I'm hoping that doing all this testing can help shed some light on things for myself and the rest of the guys here because it appears the standard low progesterone theory isn't holding up, at least in my case.
     
  55. don't get confused between shedding and actual MPB. i was shedding for years but my hairline didn't actually move, but its very hard not to get frustrated with all the hair coming out. there's a big difference. a couple of years ago i used a range of supplements and managed to stop the shedding completely but had the worst year in terms of overall receding hairline.
     
  56. @ddjd I agree that there is a difference, but the shedding seems to come directly from the frontal areas of the scalp. Also, there are plenty of guys out there that have a higher libido and great heads of hair. I think there's more to it.
     
  57. @Orangeyouglad are you just noticing recession? Or have you noticed hair loss in the crown as well?

    my hair loss is temples and then all over. No bald spot but I can notice hairs coming from back and sides, which is not characteristic of MPB. I’ve been losing for 8-9 years yet my hair line hasn’t really moved past Nw2
     
  58. Probably you need at least 10x to 100x more progesterone to reach female luteal phase type of progesterone values, 2 ng/ml to 25 ng/ml, which should not be more than 14 days.
    0.245 ng/ml which was measured by the lab is more like the follicular phase progesterone value. 0.15 ng/ml to 0.70ng/ml

    So depends on which period we refer to as female levels of Progesterone.
     
  59. Just the recession and maybe a bit of thinning. What’s crazy is the crown is perfectly fine. Yours really doesn’t sound like traditional MPB.
     
  60. yup we have the same hair loss patterns. Interesting. I'll go through your results and compare them to mine and look for some similarities.
     
  61. Cool. I'm really hoping that some of bloodwork can help other members of the forum in figuring all of this out.

    As a side note, I've just started taking @haidut's Tyromix to bump up thyroid levels, etc. so I'm hopeful there too.
     
  62. If you lose hair from sides and back it's probably thyroid. This or onset of diffuse pattern, which undoubtedly is the worst.
     
  63. Low allopregnanolone is associated with high cerebral serotonin.
     
  64. @Orangeyouglad

    Ray Peat gave me a recipe for hair growth:
    "A ten mcg cytomel tablet in three ounces of water with a spoonful of alcohol has been used topically."

    This is a very interesting article as well:

    Thyroid Hormone and Wound Healing
     
  65. Would this be ok for someone with a TSH of 1?
     
  66. I don't agree with your theory on dairy causing hair loss. I have very long hair and I consume a lot of dairy products.
    My hair loss stopped when I removed starches ( potatoes, rice and rye sourdough bread) from my diet and replaced them with fruits, honey and sugar. I also take T3 and Cynoplus, 150mg of aspirin daily, vitamin E time to time, progest-E, 70mg of B3, magnesium, and occasionally cyproheptadine, which lowers serotonin.
     
  67. I would say yes. The ideal TSH according to Ray Peat if I remember well, is around 0.4.
     
  68. Calcium lowers prolactin.

    Hormones And Hairloss
     
  69. 1) Correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding your a woman. With that said I dont think your experiences with hairloss are very applicable to a man, although I have seen dairy give women hormonal issues. Not only that your using progesterone.

    2) The implication was that dairy causes hairloss in succeptible people, hence the recommendation to experiment with dropping it, not avoid it forever.


    Yes, calcium can lower prolactin, however in succeptible people, it wont lower the opiate induced prolactin, lowered dopamine state, brought on by dairy. Quite a few men gain belly fat, gyno, acne, hairloss and other hormonal issues from dairy, this is undeniable. No explanation of calcium: phosphorous ratio, thyroid or "anti-inflammatory" effects of casien counteracts this for some people. I think its best to follow what works for the person in reality, not what should work for them in theory.
     
  70. Is there a test result I have that shows low allopregnanolone? Curious to why you bring this up and also what implications it has for MPB.

    I think it’s individually dependent. There’s a lot of hormones in milk that I believe can mess with things.
     

  71. Some of Ray Peat's quotes on milk:

    Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine can be caused by hypothyroidism (Lauritano, et al., 2007), and the substances produced by these bacteria can damage the lining of the small intestine, causing the loss of lactase enzymes (Walshe, et al., 1990). Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease. The parathyroid hormone (PTH) is an important regulator of calcium metabolism. If dietary calcium isn't sufficient, causing blood calcium to decrease, the PTH increases, and removes calcium from bones to maintain a normal amount in the blood. PTH has many other effects, contributing to inflammation, calcification of soft tissues, and decreased respiratory energy production.
    When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes.
    PTH (like estrogen) causes mast cells to release promoters of inflammation, including histamine and serotonin. Serotonin and nitric oxide contribute to increasing PTH secretion.

    Also:

    J Dairy Sci. 2010 Jun;93(6):2533-40. doi: 10.3168/jds.2009-2947.
    Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.
    Pape-Zambito DA1, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
    Some individuals fear that estrogens in dairy products may stimulate growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers in humans. The presence of estrone (E(1)) and 17beta-estradiol (E(2)) in raw whole cow’s milk has been demonstrated. The objectives of this study were to determine if pasteurization-homogenization affects E(2) concentration in milk and to quantify E(1) and E(2) concentrations in commercially available dairy products. The effects of pasteurization-homogenization were tested by collecting fresh raw milk, followed by pasteurization and homogenization at 1 of 2 homogenization pressures. All treated milks were tested for milk fat globule size, percentages of milk fat and solids, and E(2) concentrations. Estrone and E(2) were quantified from organic or conventional skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, as well as half-and-half, cream, and butter samples. Estrone and E(2) were quantified by RIA after organic solvent extractions and chromatography. Pasteurization-homogenization reduced fat globule size, but did not significantly affect E(2), milk fat, or milk solids concentrations. Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. 17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. The amount of fat in milk significantly affected E(1) and E(2) concentrations in milk. Organic and conventional dairy products did not have substantially different concentrations of E(1) and E(2). Compared with information cited in the literature, concentrations of E(1) and E(2) in bovine milk are small relative to endogenous production rates of E(1) and E(2) in humans.

    J Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.
    Concentrations of 17beta-estradiol in Holstein whole milk.
    Pape-Zambito DA1, Magliaro AL, Kensinger RS.
    Some individuals have expressed concern about estrogens in food because of their potential to promote growth of estrogen-sensitive human cancer cells. Researchers have reported concentrations of estrogen in milk but few whole milk samples have been analyzed. Because estrogen associates with the fat phase of milk, the analysis of whole milk is an important consideration. The objectives of this study, therefore, were to quantify 17beta-estradiol (E2) in whole milk from dairy cows and to determine whether E2 concentrations in milk from cows in the second half of pregnancy were greater than that in milk from cows in the first half of pregnancy or in nonpregnant cows. Milk samples and weights were collected during a single morning milking from 206 Holstein cows. Triplicate samples were collected and 2 samples were analyzed for fat, protein, lactose, and somatic cell counts (SCC); 1 sample was homogenized and analyzed for E2. The homogenized whole milk (3 mL) was extracted twice with ethyl acetate and once with methanol. The extract was reconstituted in benzene:methanol (9:1, vol/vol) and run over a Sephadex LH-20 column to separate E2 from cholesterol and estrone before quantification using radioimmunoassay. Cows were classified as not pregnant (NP, n = 138), early pregnant (EP, 1 to 140 d pregnant, n = 47), or midpregnant (MP, 141 to 210 d pregnant, n = 21) at the time of milk sampling based on herd health records. Mean E2 concentration in whole milk was 1.4 +/- 0.2 pg/mL and ranged from nondetectable to 22.9 pg/mL. Milk E2 concentrations averaged 1.3, 0.9, and 3.0 pg/mL for NP, EP, and MP cows, respectively. Milk E2 concentrations for MP cows were greater and differed from those of NP and EP cows. Milk composition was normal for a Holstein herd in that log SCC values and percentages of fat, protein, and lactose averaged 4.9, 3.5, 3.1, and 4.8, respectively. Estradiol concentration was significantly correlated (r = 0.20) with percentage fat in milk. Mean milk yield was 18.9 +/- 0.6 kg for the morning milking. The mean E2 mass accumulated in the morning milk was 23.2 +/- 3.4 ng/cow. Likewise, using the overall mean concentration for E2 in milk, the mean E2 mass in 237 mL (8 fluid ounces) of raw whole milk was 330 pg. The quantity of E2 in whole milk, therefore, is low and is unlikely to pose a health risk for humans.

    J Dairy Sci. 1979 Sep;62(9):1458-63.
    Measurement of estrogens in cow’s milk, human milk, and dairy products.
    Wolford ST, Argoudelis CJ.
    Free natural estrogens in raw and commercial whole milk were quantitated by radioimmunoassay. The ranges of concentration of estrone, estradiol 17-beta, and estriol were 34 to 55, 4 to 14, and 9 to 31 pg/ml. Proportions of active estrogens (estrone and estradiol) in the fat phases of milk by radioactive tracer on separated milk were 80% and 65%. These findings were supported by radioimmunoassay of skim milk and butter. Equilibrium dialysis of skim milk with hydrogen 3 labeled estrogens showed that 84 to 85% of estrone and estradiol and 61 to 66% of estriol were protein bound. Whey proteins demonstrated a greater binding capacity than casein. This result was confirmed by radioimmunoassay of dry curd cottage cheese and whey. The concentrations in curd were 35, 11, and 6 pg/g. In whey they were 4, 2, and 3 pg/ml. The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow’s milk.

    J Dairy Sci. 2012 Apr;95(4):1699-708. doi: 10.3168/jds.2011-5072.
    Comparison of estrone and 17β-estradiol levels in commercial goat and cow milk.
    Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
    Increased levels of estrogen metabolites are believed to be associated with cancers of the reproductive system. One potential dietary source of these metabolites that is commonly consumed worldwide is milk. In North America, dairy cows are the most common source of milk; however, goats are the primary source of milk worldwide. In this study, the absolute concentrations of unconjugated and total (unconjugated plus conjugated) estrone (E(1)) and 17β-estradiol (E(2)) were compared in a variety of commercial cow milks (regular and organic) and goat milk. A lower combined concentration of E(1) and E(2) was found in goat milk than in any of the cow milk products tested. The differences in E(1) and E(2) levels between regular and organic cow milks were not as significant as the differences between goat milk and any of the cow milk products. Goat milk represents a better dietary choice for individuals concerned with limiting their estrogen intake.

    Iran J Public Health. 2015 Jun; 44(6): 742–758
    Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health – A Narrative Review Article
    Hassan MALEKINEJAD and Aysa REZABAKHSH
     

  72. Some of Ray Peat's quotes on milk:

    Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine can be caused by hypothyroidism (Lauritano, et al., 2007), and the substances produced by these bacteria can damage the lining of the small intestine, causing the loss of lactase enzymes (Walshe, et al., 1990). Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease. The parathyroid hormone (PTH) is an important regulator of calcium metabolism. If dietary calcium isn't sufficient, causing blood calcium to decrease, the PTH increases, and removes calcium from bones to maintain a normal amount in the blood. PTH has many other effects, contributing to inflammation, calcification of soft tissues, and decreased respiratory energy production.
    When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes.
    PTH (like estrogen) causes mast cells to release promoters of inflammation, including histamine and serotonin. Serotonin and nitric oxide contribute to increasing PTH secretion.

    Also:

    J Dairy Sci. 2010 Jun;93(6):2533-40. doi: 10.3168/jds.2009-2947.
    Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.
    Pape-Zambito DA1, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
    Some individuals fear that estrogens in dairy products may stimulate growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers in humans. The presence of estrone (E(1)) and 17beta-estradiol (E(2)) in raw whole cow’s milk has been demonstrated. The objectives of this study were to determine if pasteurization-homogenization affects E(2) concentration in milk and to quantify E(1) and E(2) concentrations in commercially available dairy products. The effects of pasteurization-homogenization were tested by collecting fresh raw milk, followed by pasteurization and homogenization at 1 of 2 homogenization pressures. All treated milks were tested for milk fat globule size, percentages of milk fat and solids, and E(2) concentrations. Estrone and E(2) were quantified from organic or conventional skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, as well as half-and-half, cream, and butter samples. Estrone and E(2) were quantified by RIA after organic solvent extractions and chromatography. Pasteurization-homogenization reduced fat globule size, but did not significantly affect E(2), milk fat, or milk solids concentrations. Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. 17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. The amount of fat in milk significantly affected E(1) and E(2) concentrations in milk. Organic and conventional dairy products did not have substantially different concentrations of E(1) and E(2). Compared with information cited in the literature, concentrations of E(1) and E(2) in bovine milk are small relative to endogenous production rates of E(1) and E(2) in humans.

    J Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.
    Concentrations of 17beta-estradiol in Holstein whole milk.
    Pape-Zambito DA1, Magliaro AL, Kensinger RS.
    Some individuals have expressed concern about estrogens in food because of their potential to promote growth of estrogen-sensitive human cancer cells. Researchers have reported concentrations of estrogen in milk but few whole milk samples have been analyzed. Because estrogen associates with the fat phase of milk, the analysis of whole milk is an important consideration. The objectives of this study, therefore, were to quantify 17beta-estradiol (E2) in whole milk from dairy cows and to determine whether E2 concentrations in milk from cows in the second half of pregnancy were greater than that in milk from cows in the first half of pregnancy or in nonpregnant cows. Milk samples and weights were collected during a single morning milking from 206 Holstein cows. Triplicate samples were collected and 2 samples were analyzed for fat, protein, lactose, and somatic cell counts (SCC); 1 sample was homogenized and analyzed for E2. The homogenized whole milk (3 mL) was extracted twice with ethyl acetate and once with methanol. The extract was reconstituted in benzene:methanol (9:1, vol/vol) and run over a Sephadex LH-20 column to separate E2 from cholesterol and estrone before quantification using radioimmunoassay. Cows were classified as not pregnant (NP, n = 138), early pregnant (EP, 1 to 140 d pregnant, n = 47), or midpregnant (MP, 141 to 210 d pregnant, n = 21) at the time of milk sampling based on herd health records. Mean E2 concentration in whole milk was 1.4 +/- 0.2 pg/mL and ranged from nondetectable to 22.9 pg/mL. Milk E2 concentrations averaged 1.3, 0.9, and 3.0 pg/mL for NP, EP, and MP cows, respectively. Milk E2 concentrations for MP cows were greater and differed from those of NP and EP cows. Milk composition was normal for a Holstein herd in that log SCC values and percentages of fat, protein, and lactose averaged 4.9, 3.5, 3.1, and 4.8, respectively. Estradiol concentration was significantly correlated (r = 0.20) with percentage fat in milk. Mean milk yield was 18.9 +/- 0.6 kg for the morning milking. The mean E2 mass accumulated in the morning milk was 23.2 +/- 3.4 ng/cow. Likewise, using the overall mean concentration for E2 in milk, the mean E2 mass in 237 mL (8 fluid ounces) of raw whole milk was 330 pg. The quantity of E2 in whole milk, therefore, is low and is unlikely to pose a health risk for humans.

    J Dairy Sci. 1979 Sep;62(9):1458-63.
    Measurement of estrogens in cow’s milk, human milk, and dairy products.
    Wolford ST, Argoudelis CJ.
    Free natural estrogens in raw and commercial whole milk were quantitated by radioimmunoassay. The ranges of concentration of estrone, estradiol 17-beta, and estriol were 34 to 55, 4 to 14, and 9 to 31 pg/ml. Proportions of active estrogens (estrone and estradiol) in the fat phases of milk by radioactive tracer on separated milk were 80% and 65%. These findings were supported by radioimmunoassay of skim milk and butter. Equilibrium dialysis of skim milk with hydrogen 3 labeled estrogens showed that 84 to 85% of estrone and estradiol and 61 to 66% of estriol were protein bound. Whey proteins demonstrated a greater binding capacity than casein. This result was confirmed by radioimmunoassay of dry curd cottage cheese and whey. The concentrations in curd were 35, 11, and 6 pg/g. In whey they were 4, 2, and 3 pg/ml. The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow’s milk.

    J Dairy Sci. 2012 Apr;95(4):1699-708. doi: 10.3168/jds.2011-5072.
    Comparison of estrone and 17β-estradiol levels in commercial goat and cow milk.
    Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
    Increased levels of estrogen metabolites are believed to be associated with cancers of the reproductive system. One potential dietary source of these metabolites that is commonly consumed worldwide is milk. In North America, dairy cows are the most common source of milk; however, goats are the primary source of milk worldwide. In this study, the absolute concentrations of unconjugated and total (unconjugated plus conjugated) estrone (E(1)) and 17β-estradiol (E(2)) were compared in a variety of commercial cow milks (regular and organic) and goat milk. A lower combined concentration of E(1) and E(2) was found in goat milk than in any of the cow milk products tested. The differences in E(1) and E(2) levels between regular and organic cow milks were not as significant as the differences between goat milk and any of the cow milk products. Goat milk represents a better dietary choice for individuals concerned with limiting their estrogen intake.

    Iran J Public Health. 2015 Jun; 44(6): 742–758
    Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health – A Narrative Review Article
    Hassan MALEKINEJAD and Aysa REZABAKHSH
     
  73. I've posted studies showing the low estrogen content of bovine milk.

    It was just a thought after reading Peater Griffin's reply to you:

    "Afaik enzymes do not get "used up" in such a conversion process but are "blocked" (as they are used as catalyst in the process). That again could mean that all your 5a-reductase is "blocked" in the non-stop conversion of T to DHT, so it can not be used for the conversion of progesterone into DHP (the precursor of allopregnanolone), which could leave you with high progesterone levels."
     
  74. In your earlier post, you discuss calcium lowering prolactin, yet here you give us quote of calcium lowering parathyroid hormone. I'm assuming this quote from ray was intended to be seperate from your statement on prolactin?

    Calcium does indeed lower parathyroid hormone, that doesnt have anything to do with the opiate effect of Beta-casomorphin-7 found in cow dairy. Opiates lower dopamine and raise prolactin directly, especially in succeptible individuals. They also induce constipation, and increased mucous production, which many people experience when drinking milk. Also, this has nothing to do with lactose, so the reference quote to that is not relevant to the context I discussed. If someone was having a lactose intolerance issue, the symptoms would most likely be bloating, gas and diarrhea, not constipation. I'm not talking about a parathyroid hormone, nor am I talking about lactose intolerance when I discuss issues with dairy, I am talking about casomorphins, which are opiate analogs, and I'm talking about the hormone contents of milk.

    As for the estrogen studies:
    1) Every article you posted, except for a review from Iran is from the journal of dairy science. This means thier conclusions are suspect overall which would lead us to have to look at the data ourselves.

    2)
    The typical range for estrone in non-menopausal women is:
    17 pg/ml - 200 pg/ml
    The typical plasma range for estradiol in non-menopausal women is:
    15 pg/ml to 350 pg/ml
    Again this is in non-menopausal women.
    ESTF - Clinical: Estrogens, Estrone (E1) and Estradiol (E2), Fractionated, Serum

    Using one of your studies:

    Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.

    "Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively."

    2.9 pg/ml - skim
    4.2 pg/ml - 1%
    5.7 pg/ml - 2%
    7.9 pg/ml - whole
    20.4 pg/ml - half and half
    54.1 pg/ml - cream
    118.9 pg/g - butter


    "17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively."

    0.4 pg/ml - skim
    0.6 pg/ml - 1%
    0.9 pg/ml - 2%
    1.1 pg/ml - whole
    1.9 pg/ml - half and half
    6.0 pg/ml - cream
    15.8 pg/g - butter


    At a dose of 100g of butter in a day (about 85g of dairy fat, which is why I targeted butter specifically as a hormonal issue, not milk) you have 11,890 pg of estrone and 1580 pg of estradiol. According to wikipedia estrone has a half life of about 12 hours, with estradiol having a half life of about 20 hours. With this in mind, its possible that continued consumption of butter overtime could elevate estrogen levels, particularly in men, to levels that could possibly cause issues.

    3) There are other hormones in dairy fat besides estrogen, that include 5AR reduced steroids and progestigens that we dont know what thier possible effects are.

    4) If you combine the opiate/ prolactin raising/ dopamine lowering effect of dairy with the estrogen content of its fats, in a susceptible person this could possibly cause issues.

    So, as I said above, dropping dairy for a while may be a worthwhile experiment. I have seen dropping dairy have benefits for quite a few people. You can post Ray's theoretical quotes as much as you want, but in many cases including my own, dairy in reality was worse than a supposed theoretical calcium deficiency and phosphate excess from meat.


     
  75. Got it. So does anyone know how to "unblock" these enzymes?

    @Peater Griffin - any thoughts on how to switch things over from T - DHT to Progesterone - DHP - Allopregnanolone like you were discussing?

    How would one know if they have low Allopregnanolone and what are some ways to remedy this?
     
  76. People are achieving regrowth on bi estrogen cream. ? For real?

    Also people need to realize serum estrogen is bad. Tissue estrogen is good. I have theorized that when serum estrogen increases, tissue estrogen decreases and androgens become dominant in the tissue. It’s another way for the body to create equilibrium. It also would explain a lot of the paradoxes.
     
  77. @olive
    Any evidence of this regrowth from bi-estro? I used to follow Taeian and he was massively anti-estrogen and how it causes hair loss. Then he flipped and promoted the estro cream and said it’s good topically, not systemically.

    Heaps of people tried his ideas and very few actually saw significant regrowth from what I gather. There were before/afters of crazy regrowth on omega 6 oils, and there are others on other sites of crazy regrowth from massaging.

    Can you show us any bodybuilders with perfectly bald scalps that have achieved regrowth from bi-estro? No stress if not, it’s just a huge claim to make without evidence
     
  78. I would like to see this as well @olive . I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen it yet.
     
  79. For the sake of someone who is interested in using bi-estro cream topically on the scalp in order to re-grow his hair, would you mind sharing more information about this approach? How much would one have to use daily? The cream I purchased is from a brand called BIOLabs PRO and it contains 2000mcg of Estriol and 500mcg of Estradiol per pump. Also, are there any bodybuilders who have used this approach to regrow their hair and then posted their success stories online?