Hairloss Blood Work: Low T + High DHT + High Progesterone

[brix]

Just the recession and maybe a bit of thinning. What’s crazy is the crown is perfectly fine. Yours really doesn’t sound like traditional MPB.

yup we have the same hair loss patterns. Interesting. I'll go through your results and compare them to mine and look for some similarities.

 

[Orangeyouglad]

yup we have the same hair loss patterns. Interesting. I'll go through your results and compare them to mine and look for some similarities.

Cool. I'm really hoping that some of bloodwork can help other members of the forum in figuring all of this out.

As a side note, I've just started taking @haidut's Tyromix to bump up thyroid levels, etc. so I'm hopeful there too.

 

[Zigzag]

If you lose hair from sides and back it's probably thyroid. This or onset of diffuse pattern, which undoubtedly is the worst.

 

[dreamcatcher]

Low allopregnanolone is associated with high cerebral serotonin.

 

[dreamcatcher]

I've been going through a lot of tests to try and see if there's something that could be causing my early-onset MPB. I recently received my blood work back and found interesting results.

• Free T was low but DHT was at the upper limit.
• My progesterone is high. Double the higher end amount for men.

According to many theories here, these would be optimal stats to have in terms of hair loss which leaves me confused.

This leaves me wondering what causes high DHT when T is low, and also if there is a reason my progesterone would be so elevated. Any thoughts on all this?

@Orangeyouglad

Ray Peat gave me a recipe for hair growth:
"A ten mcg cytomel tablet in three ounces of water with a spoonful of alcohol has been used topically."

This is a very interesting article as well:

Thyroid Hormone and Wound Healing

 

[Kunstruct]

Ray Peat gave me a recipe for hair growth:
"A ten mcg cytomel tablet in three ounces of water with a spoonful of alcohol has been used topically."

Would this be ok for someone with a TSH of 1?

 

[dreamcatcher]

If I had to guess what's causing the hairloss based on the dietary template you described I'd say it was the dairy. Dairy is high in quite a few hormones including estrogen, 5ar reduced steroids, progesterone and others. Its also contains opiates that can increase prolactin and lower dopamine. These factors overall can possibly lead to increased prolactin on your blood test which lowers your testosterone and/or push your test towards dht. I've only seen a select group of people tolerate dairy well, many others are hormonal nightmares from it.

On a practical level I think experimenting with dropping all dairy would be worthwhile and replace it with meat, select seafood and eggs. I'd broaden the range of whole fruits you where taking in, as well as 100% juices and salt to taste, no need to add large quantities of salt. As for fats I'd use beef tallow, chocolate, cocoa butter, and coconut oil. Butter wont have the opiate effect but it will have the hormone effect. I'd also add in a carrot with each meal or so for some fiber to keep your regular (in conjunction with the whole fruit).

In order to regrow hair, I have seen some good reports with microneedle with a 1.5mm derminator every 2 weeks. I'm not a fan of the pharma drugs currently available for regrowth, the side effects and mechanisms of the drugs are often problematic and a bit risky in many cases.

I don't agree with your theory on dairy causing hair loss. I have very long hair and I consume a lot of dairy products.
My hair loss stopped when I removed starches ( potatoes, rice and rye sourdough bread) from my diet and replaced them with fruits, honey and sugar. I also take T3 and Cynoplus, 150mg of aspirin daily, vitamin E time to time, progest-E, 70mg of B3, magnesium, and occasionally cyproheptadine, which lowers serotonin.

 

[dreamcatcher]

Would this be ok for someone with a TSH of 1?

I would say yes. The ideal TSH according to Ray Peat if I remember well, is around 0.4.

 

[dreamcatcher]

If I had to guess what's causing the hairloss based on the dietary template you described I'd say it was the dairy. Dairy is high in quite a few hormones including estrogen, 5ar reduced steroids, progesterone and others. Its also contains opiates that can increase prolactin and lower dopamine. These factors overall can possibly lead to increased prolactin on your blood test which lowers your testosterone and/or push your test towards dht. I've only seen a select group of people tolerate dairy well, many others are hormonal nightmares from it.

On a practical level I think experimenting with dropping all dairy would be worthwhile and replace it with meat, select seafood and eggs. I'd broaden the range of whole fruits you where taking in, as well as 100% juices and salt to taste, no need to add large quantities of salt. As for fats I'd use beef tallow, chocolate, cocoa butter, and coconut oil. Butter wont have the opiate effect but it will have the hormone effect. I'd also add in a carrot with each meal or so for some fiber to keep your regular (in conjunction with the whole fruit).

In order to regrow hair, I have seen some good reports with microneedle with a 1.5mm derminator every 2 weeks. I'm not a fan of the pharma drugs currently available for regrowth, the side effects and mechanisms of the drugs are often problematic and a bit risky in many cases.

Calcium lowers prolactin.

Hormones And Hairloss

 

[CLASH]

I don't agree with your theory on dairy causing hair loss. I have very long hair and I consume a lot of dairy products.
My hair loss stopped when I removed starches ( potatoes, rice and rye sourdough bread) from my diet and replaced them with fruits, honey and sugar. I also take T3 and Cynoplus, 150mg of aspirin daily, vitamin E time to time, progest-E, 70mg of B3, magnesium, and occasionally cyproheptadine, which lowers serotonin.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding your a woman. With that said I dont think your experiences with hairloss are very applicable to a man, although I have seen dairy give women hormonal issues. Not only that your using progesterone.

2) The implication was that dairy causes hairloss in succeptible people, hence the recommendation to experiment with dropping it, not avoid it forever.

Calcium lowers prolactin.

Hormones And Hairloss

Yes, calcium can lower prolactin, however in succeptible people, it wont lower the opiate induced prolactin, lowered dopamine state, brought on by dairy. Quite a few men gain belly fat, gyno, acne, hairloss and other hormonal issues from dairy, this is undeniable. No explanation of calcium: phosphorous ratio, thyroid or "anti-inflammatory" effects of casien counteracts this for some people. I think its best to follow what works for the person in reality, not what should work for them in theory.

 

[Orangeyouglad]

Low allopregnanolone is associated with high cerebral serotonin.

Is there a test result I have that shows low allopregnanolone? Curious to why you bring this up and also what implications it has for MPB.

I don't agree with your theory on dairy causing hair loss. I have very long hair and I consume a lot of dairy products.
My hair loss stopped when I removed starches ( potatoes, rice and rye sourdough bread) from my diet and replaced them with fruits, honey and sugar. I also take T3 and Cynoplus, 150mg of aspirin daily, vitamin E time to time, progest-E, 70mg of B3, magnesium, and occasionally cyproheptadine, which lowers serotonin.

I think it’s individually dependent. There’s a lot of hormones in milk that I believe can mess with things.

 

[dreamcatcher]

Take some letrozole and see how quickly your hair falls out. Then go look at the bodybuilders rubbing bi-estro cream on their bald scalps achieving regrowth even on large doses of androgens. Then let me know if you still believe estrogens cause hair loss.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding your a woman. With that said I dont think your experiences with hairloss are very applicable to a man, although I have seen dairy give women hormonal issues. Not only that your using progesterone.

2) The implication was that dairy causes hairloss in succeptible people, hence the recommendation to experiment with dropping it, not avoid it forever.




Yes, calcium can lower prolactin, however in succeptible people, it wont lower the opiate induced prolactin, lowered dopamine state, brought on by dairy. Quite a few men gain belly fat, gyno, acne, hairloss and other hormonal issues from dairy, this is undeniable. No explanation of calcium: phosphorous ratio, thyroid or "anti-inflammatory" effects of casien counteracts this for some people. I think its best to follow what works for the person in reality, not what should work for them in theory.

Some of Ray Peat's quotes on milk:

Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine can be caused by hypothyroidism (Lauritano, et al., 2007), and the substances produced by these bacteria can damage the lining of the small intestine, causing the loss of lactase enzymes (Walshe, et al., 1990). Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease. The parathyroid hormone (PTH) is an important regulator of calcium metabolism. If dietary calcium isn't sufficient, causing blood calcium to decrease, the PTH increases, and removes calcium from bones to maintain a normal amount in the blood. PTH has many other effects, contributing to inflammation, calcification of soft tissues, and decreased respiratory energy production.
When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes.
PTH (like estrogen) causes mast cells to release promoters of inflammation, including histamine and serotonin. Serotonin and nitric oxide contribute to increasing PTH secretion.

Also:

J Dairy Sci. 2010 Jun;93(6):2533-40. doi: 10.3168/jds.2009-2947.
Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals fear that estrogens in dairy products may stimulate growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers in humans. The presence of estrone (E(1)) and 17beta-estradiol (E(2)) in raw whole cow’s milk has been demonstrated. The objectives of this study were to determine if pasteurization-homogenization affects E(2) concentration in milk and to quantify E(1) and E(2) concentrations in commercially available dairy products. The effects of pasteurization-homogenization were tested by collecting fresh raw milk, followed by pasteurization and homogenization at 1 of 2 homogenization pressures. All treated milks were tested for milk fat globule size, percentages of milk fat and solids, and E(2) concentrations. Estrone and E(2) were quantified from organic or conventional skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, as well as half-and-half, cream, and butter samples. Estrone and E(2) were quantified by RIA after organic solvent extractions and chromatography. Pasteurization-homogenization reduced fat globule size, but did not significantly affect E(2), milk fat, or milk solids concentrations. Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. 17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. The amount of fat in milk significantly affected E(1) and E(2) concentrations in milk. Organic and conventional dairy products did not have substantially different concentrations of E(1) and E(2). Compared with information cited in the literature, concentrations of E(1) and E(2) in bovine milk are small relative to endogenous production rates of E(1) and E(2) in humans.

J Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.
Concentrations of 17beta-estradiol in Holstein whole milk.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Magliaro AL, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals have expressed concern about estrogens in food because of their potential to promote growth of estrogen-sensitive human cancer cells. Researchers have reported concentrations of estrogen in milk but few whole milk samples have been analyzed. Because estrogen associates with the fat phase of milk, the analysis of whole milk is an important consideration. The objectives of this study, therefore, were to quantify 17beta-estradiol (E2) in whole milk from dairy cows and to determine whether E2 concentrations in milk from cows in the second half of pregnancy were greater than that in milk from cows in the first half of pregnancy or in nonpregnant cows. Milk samples and weights were collected during a single morning milking from 206 Holstein cows. Triplicate samples were collected and 2 samples were analyzed for fat, protein, lactose, and somatic cell counts (SCC); 1 sample was homogenized and analyzed for E2. The homogenized whole milk (3 mL) was extracted twice with ethyl acetate and once with methanol. The extract was reconstituted in benzene:methanol (9:1, vol/vol) and run over a Sephadex LH-20 column to separate E2 from cholesterol and estrone before quantification using radioimmunoassay. Cows were classified as not pregnant (NP, n = 138), early pregnant (EP, 1 to 140 d pregnant, n = 47), or midpregnant (MP, 141 to 210 d pregnant, n = 21) at the time of milk sampling based on herd health records. Mean E2 concentration in whole milk was 1.4 +/- 0.2 pg/mL and ranged from nondetectable to 22.9 pg/mL. Milk E2 concentrations averaged 1.3, 0.9, and 3.0 pg/mL for NP, EP, and MP cows, respectively. Milk E2 concentrations for MP cows were greater and differed from those of NP and EP cows. Milk composition was normal for a Holstein herd in that log SCC values and percentages of fat, protein, and lactose averaged 4.9, 3.5, 3.1, and 4.8, respectively. Estradiol concentration was significantly correlated (r = 0.20) with percentage fat in milk. Mean milk yield was 18.9 +/- 0.6 kg for the morning milking. The mean E2 mass accumulated in the morning milk was 23.2 +/- 3.4 ng/cow. Likewise, using the overall mean concentration for E2 in milk, the mean E2 mass in 237 mL (8 fluid ounces) of raw whole milk was 330 pg. The quantity of E2 in whole milk, therefore, is low and is unlikely to pose a health risk for humans.

J Dairy Sci. 1979 Sep;62(9):1458-63.
Measurement of estrogens in cow’s milk, human milk, and dairy products.
Wolford ST, Argoudelis CJ.
Free natural estrogens in raw and commercial whole milk were quantitated by radioimmunoassay. The ranges of concentration of estrone, estradiol 17-beta, and estriol were 34 to 55, 4 to 14, and 9 to 31 pg/ml. Proportions of active estrogens (estrone and estradiol) in the fat phases of milk by radioactive tracer on separated milk were 80% and 65%. These findings were supported by radioimmunoassay of skim milk and butter. Equilibrium dialysis of skim milk with hydrogen 3 labeled estrogens showed that 84 to 85% of estrone and estradiol and 61 to 66% of estriol were protein bound. Whey proteins demonstrated a greater binding capacity than casein. This result was confirmed by radioimmunoassay of dry curd cottage cheese and whey. The concentrations in curd were 35, 11, and 6 pg/g. In whey they were 4, 2, and 3 pg/ml. The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow’s milk.

J Dairy Sci. 2012 Apr;95(4):1699-708. doi: 10.3168/jds.2011-5072.
Comparison of estrone and 17β-estradiol levels in commercial goat and cow milk.
Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
Increased levels of estrogen metabolites are believed to be associated with cancers of the reproductive system. One potential dietary source of these metabolites that is commonly consumed worldwide is milk. In North America, dairy cows are the most common source of milk; however, goats are the primary source of milk worldwide. In this study, the absolute concentrations of unconjugated and total (unconjugated plus conjugated) estrone (E(1)) and 17β-estradiol (E(2)) were compared in a variety of commercial cow milks (regular and organic) and goat milk. A lower combined concentration of E(1) and E(2) was found in goat milk than in any of the cow milk products tested. The differences in E(1) and E(2) levels between regular and organic cow milks were not as significant as the differences between goat milk and any of the cow milk products. Goat milk represents a better dietary choice for individuals concerned with limiting their estrogen intake.

Iran J Public Health. 2015 Jun; 44(6): 742–758
Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health – A Narrative Review Article
Hassan MALEKINEJAD and Aysa REZABAKHSH

 

[dreamcatcher]

Take some letrozole and see how quickly your hair falls out. Then go look at the bodybuilders rubbing bi-estro cream on their bald scalps achieving regrowth even on large doses of androgens. Then let me know if you still believe estrogens cause hair loss.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding your a woman. With that said I dont think your experiences with hairloss are very applicable to a man, although I have seen dairy give women hormonal issues. Not only that your using progesterone.

2) The implication was that dairy causes hairloss in succeptible people, hence the recommendation to experiment with dropping it, not avoid it forever.




Yes, calcium can lower prolactin, however in succeptible people, it wont lower the opiate induced prolactin, lowered dopamine state, brought on by dairy. Quite a few men gain belly fat, gyno, acne, hairloss and other hormonal issues from dairy, this is undeniable. No explanation of calcium: phosphorous ratio, thyroid or "anti-inflammatory" effects of casien counteracts this for some people. I think its best to follow what works for the person in reality, not what should work for them in theory.

Some of Ray Peat's quotes on milk:

Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine can be caused by hypothyroidism (Lauritano, et al., 2007), and the substances produced by these bacteria can damage the lining of the small intestine, causing the loss of lactase enzymes (Walshe, et al., 1990). Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease. The parathyroid hormone (PTH) is an important regulator of calcium metabolism. If dietary calcium isn't sufficient, causing blood calcium to decrease, the PTH increases, and removes calcium from bones to maintain a normal amount in the blood. PTH has many other effects, contributing to inflammation, calcification of soft tissues, and decreased respiratory energy production.
When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes.
PTH (like estrogen) causes mast cells to release promoters of inflammation, including histamine and serotonin. Serotonin and nitric oxide contribute to increasing PTH secretion.

Also:

J Dairy Sci. 2010 Jun;93(6):2533-40. doi: 10.3168/jds.2009-2947.
Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals fear that estrogens in dairy products may stimulate growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers in humans. The presence of estrone (E(1)) and 17beta-estradiol (E(2)) in raw whole cow’s milk has been demonstrated. The objectives of this study were to determine if pasteurization-homogenization affects E(2) concentration in milk and to quantify E(1) and E(2) concentrations in commercially available dairy products. The effects of pasteurization-homogenization were tested by collecting fresh raw milk, followed by pasteurization and homogenization at 1 of 2 homogenization pressures. All treated milks were tested for milk fat globule size, percentages of milk fat and solids, and E(2) concentrations. Estrone and E(2) were quantified from organic or conventional skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, as well as half-and-half, cream, and butter samples. Estrone and E(2) were quantified by RIA after organic solvent extractions and chromatography. Pasteurization-homogenization reduced fat globule size, but did not significantly affect E(2), milk fat, or milk solids concentrations. Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. 17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. The amount of fat in milk significantly affected E(1) and E(2) concentrations in milk. Organic and conventional dairy products did not have substantially different concentrations of E(1) and E(2). Compared with information cited in the literature, concentrations of E(1) and E(2) in bovine milk are small relative to endogenous production rates of E(1) and E(2) in humans.

J Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.
Concentrations of 17beta-estradiol in Holstein whole milk.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Magliaro AL, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals have expressed concern about estrogens in food because of their potential to promote growth of estrogen-sensitive human cancer cells. Researchers have reported concentrations of estrogen in milk but few whole milk samples have been analyzed. Because estrogen associates with the fat phase of milk, the analysis of whole milk is an important consideration. The objectives of this study, therefore, were to quantify 17beta-estradiol (E2) in whole milk from dairy cows and to determine whether E2 concentrations in milk from cows in the second half of pregnancy were greater than that in milk from cows in the first half of pregnancy or in nonpregnant cows. Milk samples and weights were collected during a single morning milking from 206 Holstein cows. Triplicate samples were collected and 2 samples were analyzed for fat, protein, lactose, and somatic cell counts (SCC); 1 sample was homogenized and analyzed for E2. The homogenized whole milk (3 mL) was extracted twice with ethyl acetate and once with methanol. The extract was reconstituted in benzene:methanol (9:1, vol/vol) and run over a Sephadex LH-20 column to separate E2 from cholesterol and estrone before quantification using radioimmunoassay. Cows were classified as not pregnant (NP, n = 138), early pregnant (EP, 1 to 140 d pregnant, n = 47), or midpregnant (MP, 141 to 210 d pregnant, n = 21) at the time of milk sampling based on herd health records. Mean E2 concentration in whole milk was 1.4 +/- 0.2 pg/mL and ranged from nondetectable to 22.9 pg/mL. Milk E2 concentrations averaged 1.3, 0.9, and 3.0 pg/mL for NP, EP, and MP cows, respectively. Milk E2 concentrations for MP cows were greater and differed from those of NP and EP cows. Milk composition was normal for a Holstein herd in that log SCC values and percentages of fat, protein, and lactose averaged 4.9, 3.5, 3.1, and 4.8, respectively. Estradiol concentration was significantly correlated (r = 0.20) with percentage fat in milk. Mean milk yield was 18.9 +/- 0.6 kg for the morning milking. The mean E2 mass accumulated in the morning milk was 23.2 +/- 3.4 ng/cow. Likewise, using the overall mean concentration for E2 in milk, the mean E2 mass in 237 mL (8 fluid ounces) of raw whole milk was 330 pg. The quantity of E2 in whole milk, therefore, is low and is unlikely to pose a health risk for humans.

J Dairy Sci. 1979 Sep;62(9):1458-63.
Measurement of estrogens in cow’s milk, human milk, and dairy products.
Wolford ST, Argoudelis CJ.
Free natural estrogens in raw and commercial whole milk were quantitated by radioimmunoassay. The ranges of concentration of estrone, estradiol 17-beta, and estriol were 34 to 55, 4 to 14, and 9 to 31 pg/ml. Proportions of active estrogens (estrone and estradiol) in the fat phases of milk by radioactive tracer on separated milk were 80% and 65%. These findings were supported by radioimmunoassay of skim milk and butter. Equilibrium dialysis of skim milk with hydrogen 3 labeled estrogens showed that 84 to 85% of estrone and estradiol and 61 to 66% of estriol were protein bound. Whey proteins demonstrated a greater binding capacity than casein. This result was confirmed by radioimmunoassay of dry curd cottage cheese and whey. The concentrations in curd were 35, 11, and 6 pg/g. In whey they were 4, 2, and 3 pg/ml. The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow’s milk.

J Dairy Sci. 2012 Apr;95(4):1699-708. doi: 10.3168/jds.2011-5072.
Comparison of estrone and 17β-estradiol levels in commercial goat and cow milk.
Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
Increased levels of estrogen metabolites are believed to be associated with cancers of the reproductive system. One potential dietary source of these metabolites that is commonly consumed worldwide is milk. In North America, dairy cows are the most common source of milk; however, goats are the primary source of milk worldwide. In this study, the absolute concentrations of unconjugated and total (unconjugated plus conjugated) estrone (E(1)) and 17β-estradiol (E(2)) were compared in a variety of commercial cow milks (regular and organic) and goat milk. A lower combined concentration of E(1) and E(2) was found in goat milk than in any of the cow milk products tested. The differences in E(1) and E(2) levels between regular and organic cow milks were not as significant as the differences between goat milk and any of the cow milk products. Goat milk represents a better dietary choice for individuals concerned with limiting their estrogen intake.

Iran J Public Health. 2015 Jun; 44(6): 742–758
Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health – A Narrative Review Article
Hassan MALEKINEJAD and Aysa REZABAKHSH

 

[dreamcatcher]

Is there a test result I have that shows low allopregnanolone? Curious to why you bring this up and also what implications it has for MPB.


I think it’s individually dependent. There’s a lot of hormones in milk that I believe can mess with things.

I've posted studies showing the low estrogen content of bovine milk.

It was just a thought after reading Peater Griffin's reply to you:

"Afaik enzymes do not get "used up" in such a conversion process but are "blocked" (as they are used as catalyst in the process). That again could mean that all your 5a-reductase is "blocked" in the non-stop conversion of T to DHT, so it can not be used for the conversion of progesterone into DHP (the precursor of allopregnanolone), which could leave you with high progesterone levels."

 

[CLASH]

Some of Ray Peat's quotes on milk:

Bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine can be caused by hypothyroidism (Lauritano, et al., 2007), and the substances produced by these bacteria can damage the lining of the small intestine, causing the loss of lactase enzymes (Walshe, et al., 1990). Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease. The parathyroid hormone (PTH) is an important regulator of calcium metabolism. If dietary calcium isn't sufficient, causing blood calcium to decrease, the PTH increases, and removes calcium from bones to maintain a normal amount in the blood. PTH has many other effects, contributing to inflammation, calcification of soft tissues, and decreased respiratory energy production.
When there is adequate calcium, vitamin D, and magnesium in the diet, PTH is kept to a minimum. When PTH is kept low, cells increase their formation of the uncoupling proteins, that cause mitochondria to use energy at a higher rate, and this is associated with decreased activity of the fatty acid synthase enzymes.
PTH (like estrogen) causes mast cells to release promoters of inflammation, including histamine and serotonin. Serotonin and nitric oxide contribute to increasing PTH secretion.

Also:

J Dairy Sci. 2010 Jun;93(6):2533-40. doi: 10.3168/jds.2009-2947.
Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals fear that estrogens in dairy products may stimulate growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers in humans. The presence of estrone (E(1)) and 17beta-estradiol (E(2)) in raw whole cow’s milk has been demonstrated. The objectives of this study were to determine if pasteurization-homogenization affects E(2) concentration in milk and to quantify E(1) and E(2) concentrations in commercially available dairy products. The effects of pasteurization-homogenization were tested by collecting fresh raw milk, followed by pasteurization and homogenization at 1 of 2 homogenization pressures. All treated milks were tested for milk fat globule size, percentages of milk fat and solids, and E(2) concentrations. Estrone and E(2) were quantified from organic or conventional skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, as well as half-and-half, cream, and butter samples. Estrone and E(2) were quantified by RIA after organic solvent extractions and chromatography. Pasteurization-homogenization reduced fat globule size, but did not significantly affect E(2), milk fat, or milk solids concentrations. Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. 17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. The amount of fat in milk significantly affected E(1) and E(2) concentrations in milk. Organic and conventional dairy products did not have substantially different concentrations of E(1) and E(2). Compared with information cited in the literature, concentrations of E(1) and E(2) in bovine milk are small relative to endogenous production rates of E(1) and E(2) in humans.

J Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.
Concentrations of 17beta-estradiol in Holstein whole milk.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Magliaro AL, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals have expressed concern about estrogens in food because of their potential to promote growth of estrogen-sensitive human cancer cells. Researchers have reported concentrations of estrogen in milk but few whole milk samples have been analyzed. Because estrogen associates with the fat phase of milk, the analysis of whole milk is an important consideration. The objectives of this study, therefore, were to quantify 17beta-estradiol (E2) in whole milk from dairy cows and to determine whether E2 concentrations in milk from cows in the second half of pregnancy were greater than that in milk from cows in the first half of pregnancy or in nonpregnant cows. Milk samples and weights were collected during a single morning milking from 206 Holstein cows. Triplicate samples were collected and 2 samples were analyzed for fat, protein, lactose, and somatic cell counts (SCC); 1 sample was homogenized and analyzed for E2. The homogenized whole milk (3 mL) was extracted twice with ethyl acetate and once with methanol. The extract was reconstituted in benzene:methanol (9:1, vol/vol) and run over a Sephadex LH-20 column to separate E2 from cholesterol and estrone before quantification using radioimmunoassay. Cows were classified as not pregnant (NP, n = 138), early pregnant (EP, 1 to 140 d pregnant, n = 47), or midpregnant (MP, 141 to 210 d pregnant, n = 21) at the time of milk sampling based on herd health records. Mean E2 concentration in whole milk was 1.4 +/- 0.2 pg/mL and ranged from nondetectable to 22.9 pg/mL. Milk E2 concentrations averaged 1.3, 0.9, and 3.0 pg/mL for NP, EP, and MP cows, respectively. Milk E2 concentrations for MP cows were greater and differed from those of NP and EP cows. Milk composition was normal for a Holstein herd in that log SCC values and percentages of fat, protein, and lactose averaged 4.9, 3.5, 3.1, and 4.8, respectively. Estradiol concentration was significantly correlated (r = 0.20) with percentage fat in milk. Mean milk yield was 18.9 +/- 0.6 kg for the morning milking. The mean E2 mass accumulated in the morning milk was 23.2 +/- 3.4 ng/cow. Likewise, using the overall mean concentration for E2 in milk, the mean E2 mass in 237 mL (8 fluid ounces) of raw whole milk was 330 pg. The quantity of E2 in whole milk, therefore, is low and is unlikely to pose a health risk for humans.

J Dairy Sci. 1979 Sep;62(9):1458-63.
Measurement of estrogens in cow’s milk, human milk, and dairy products.
Wolford ST, Argoudelis CJ.
Free natural estrogens in raw and commercial whole milk were quantitated by radioimmunoassay. The ranges of concentration of estrone, estradiol 17-beta, and estriol were 34 to 55, 4 to 14, and 9 to 31 pg/ml. Proportions of active estrogens (estrone and estradiol) in the fat phases of milk by radioactive tracer on separated milk were 80% and 65%. These findings were supported by radioimmunoassay of skim milk and butter. Equilibrium dialysis of skim milk with hydrogen 3 labeled estrogens showed that 84 to 85% of estrone and estradiol and 61 to 66% of estriol were protein bound. Whey proteins demonstrated a greater binding capacity than casein. This result was confirmed by radioimmunoassay of dry curd cottage cheese and whey. The concentrations in curd were 35, 11, and 6 pg/g. In whey they were 4, 2, and 3 pg/ml. The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow’s milk.

J Dairy Sci. 2012 Apr;95(4):1699-708. doi: 10.3168/jds.2011-5072.
Comparison of estrone and 17β-estradiol levels in commercial goat and cow milk.
Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
Increased levels of estrogen metabolites are believed to be associated with cancers of the reproductive system. One potential dietary source of these metabolites that is commonly consumed worldwide is milk. In North America, dairy cows are the most common source of milk; however, goats are the primary source of milk worldwide. In this study, the absolute concentrations of unconjugated and total (unconjugated plus conjugated) estrone (E(1)) and 17β-estradiol (E(2)) were compared in a variety of commercial cow milks (regular and organic) and goat milk. A lower combined concentration of E(1) and E(2) was found in goat milk than in any of the cow milk products tested. The differences in E(1) and E(2) levels between regular and organic cow milks were not as significant as the differences between goat milk and any of the cow milk products. Goat milk represents a better dietary choice for individuals concerned with limiting their estrogen intake.

Iran J Public Health. 2015 Jun; 44(6): 742–758
Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health – A Narrative Review Article
Hassan MALEKINEJAD and Aysa REZABAKHSH

In your earlier post, you discuss calcium lowering prolactin, yet here you give us quote of calcium lowering parathyroid hormone. I'm assuming this quote from ray was intended to be seperate from your statement on prolactin?

Calcium does indeed lower parathyroid hormone, that doesnt have anything to do with the opiate effect of Beta-casomorphin-7 found in cow dairy. Opiates lower dopamine and raise prolactin directly, especially in succeptible individuals. They also induce constipation, and increased mucous production, which many people experience when drinking milk. Also, this has nothing to do with lactose, so the reference quote to that is not relevant to the context I discussed. If someone was having a lactose intolerance issue, the symptoms would most likely be bloating, gas and diarrhea, not constipation. I'm not talking about a parathyroid hormone, nor am I talking about lactose intolerance when I discuss issues with dairy, I am talking about casomorphins, which are opiate analogs, and I'm talking about the hormone contents of milk.

As for the estrogen studies:
1) Every article you posted, except for a review from Iran is from the journal of dairy science. This means thier conclusions are suspect overall which would lead us to have to look at the data ourselves.

2)
The typical range for estrone in non-menopausal women is:
17 pg/ml - 200 pg/ml
The typical plasma range for estradiol in non-menopausal women is:
15 pg/ml to 350 pg/ml
Again this is in non-menopausal women.
ESTF - Clinical: Estrogens, Estrone (E1) and Estradiol (E2), Fractionated, Serum

Using one of your studies:

Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.

"Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively."

2.9 pg/ml - skim
4.2 pg/ml - 1%
5.7 pg/ml - 2%
7.9 pg/ml - whole
20.4 pg/ml - half and half
54.1 pg/ml - cream
118.9 pg/g - butter

"17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively."

0.4 pg/ml - skim
0.6 pg/ml - 1%
0.9 pg/ml - 2%
1.1 pg/ml - whole
1.9 pg/ml - half and half
6.0 pg/ml - cream
15.8 pg/g - butter

At a dose of 100g of butter in a day (about 85g of dairy fat, which is why I targeted butter specifically as a hormonal issue, not milk) you have 11,890 pg of estrone and 1580 pg of estradiol. According to wikipedia estrone has a half life of about 12 hours, with estradiol having a half life of about 20 hours. With this in mind, its possible that continued consumption of butter overtime could elevate estrogen levels, particularly in men, to levels that could possibly cause issues.

3) There are other hormones in dairy fat besides estrogen, that include 5AR reduced steroids and progestigens that we dont know what thier possible effects are.

4) If you combine the opiate/ prolactin raising/ dopamine lowering effect of dairy with the estrogen content of its fats, in a susceptible person this could possibly cause issues.

So, as I said above, dropping dairy for a while may be a worthwhile experiment. I have seen dropping dairy have benefits for quite a few people. You can post Ray's theoretical quotes as much as you want, but in many cases including my own, dairy in reality was worse than a supposed theoretical calcium deficiency and phosphate excess from meat.

 

[Orangeyouglad]

I am no expert on the steroid pathways and how all of this works, but I have a wild guess. As a layman I could only imagine your T to be low due to it so quickly be converted into DHT (since T is the only direct precursor of DHT). That would require a high 5a-reductase activity (which is an enzyme). Afaik enzymes do not get "used up" in such a conversion process but are "blocked" (as they are used as catalyst in the process). That again could mean that all your 5a-reductase is "blocked" in the non-stop conversion of T to DHT, so it can not be used for the conversion of progesterone into DHP (the precursor of allopregnanolone), which could leave you with high progesterone levels. Do you have any low allopregnanolone symptoms? Still this would leave the question WHY that enzyme is all used for test conversion but not for prog conversion...

I've posted studies showing the low estrogen content of bovine milk.

It was just a thought after reading @Peater Griffin reply to you:

"Afaik enzymes do not get "used up" in such a conversion process but are "blocked" (as they are used as catalyst in the process). That again could mean that all your 5a-reductase is "blocked" in the non-stop conversion of T to DHT, so it can not be used for the conversion of progesterone into DHP (the precursor of allopregnanolone), which could leave you with high progesterone levels."

Got it. So does anyone know how to "unblock" these enzymes?

@Peater Griffin - any thoughts on how to switch things over from T - DHT to Progesterone - DHP - Allopregnanolone like you were discussing?

How would one know if they have low Allopregnanolone and what are some ways to remedy this?

 

[GorillaHead]

Take some letrozole and see how quickly your hair falls out. Then go look at the bodybuilders rubbing bi-estro cream on their bald scalps achieving regrowth even on large doses of androgens. Then let me know if you still believe estrogens cause hair loss.

People are achieving regrowth on bi estrogen cream. ? For real?

Also people need to realize serum estrogen is bad. Tissue estrogen is good. I have theorized that when serum estrogen increases, tissue estrogen decreases and androgens become dominant in the tissue. It’s another way for the body to create equilibrium. It also would explain a lot of the paradoxes.

 

[Scenes]

People are achieving regrowth on bi estrogen cream. ? For real?

Also people need to realize serum estrogen is bad. Tissue estrogen is good. I have theorized that when serum estrogen increases, tissue estrogen decreases and androgens become dominant in the tissue. It’s another way for the body to create equilibrium. It also would explain a lot of the paradoxes.

@olive
Any evidence of this regrowth from bi-estro? I used to follow Taeian and he was massively anti-estrogen and how it causes hair loss. Then he flipped and promoted the estro cream and said it’s good topically, not systemically.

Heaps of people tried his ideas and very few actually saw significant regrowth from what I gather. There were before/afters of crazy regrowth on omega 6 oils, and there are others on other sites of crazy regrowth from massaging.

Can you show us any bodybuilders with perfectly bald scalps that have achieved regrowth from bi-estro? No stress if not, it’s just a huge claim to make without evidence

 

[Orangeyouglad]

@olive
Any evidence of this regrowth from bi-estro? I used to follow Taeian and he was massively anti-estrogen and how it causes hair loss. Then he flipped and promoted the estro cream and said it’s good topically, not systemically.

Heaps of people tried his ideas and very few actually saw significant regrowth from what I gather. There were before/afters of crazy regrowth on omega 6 oils, and there are others on other sites of crazy regrowth from massaging.

Can you show us any bodybuilders with perfectly bald scalps that have achieved regrowth from bi-estro? No stress if not, it’s just a huge claim to make without evidence

I would like to see this as well @olive . I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen it yet.

 

[Gerard1989]

Take some letrozole and see how quickly your hair falls out. Then go look at the bodybuilders rubbing bi-estro cream on their bald scalps achieving regrowth even on large doses of androgens. Then let me know if you still believe estrogens cause hair loss.

For the sake of someone who is interested in using bi-estro cream topically on the scalp in order to re-grow his hair, would you mind sharing more information about this approach? How much would one have to use daily? The cream I purchased is from a brand called BIOLabs PRO and it contains 2000mcg of Estriol and 500mcg of Estradiol per pump. Also, are there any bodybuilders who have used this approach to regrow their hair and then posted their success stories online?