1. 10% Discount At RedLightMan.com For Ray Peat Forum Members!
    Click Here For More Information
    Dismiss Notice

Hair Steroid Profiling Reveals Differences In Male Pattern Baldness Between Korean & Caucas. Men

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by Dante, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    Hair Steroid Profiling Reveals Racial Differences in Male Pattern Baldness between Korean and Caucasian Populations (PDF Download Available)
    As biological fluids demonstrate no correlation between androgen levels and MPB (Phillipou and Kirk, 1981),
    steroids extracted from the hair shaft were compared in balding and normal Korean and Caucasian subjects.
    Human hair fibers were obtained by cutting the proximal part hair from the vertex and occipital scalp, and
    the steroid levels were evaluated as described
    NK = normal korean, BK = balding korean. NC = normal Caucasian ,BC = balding Caucasian.

    1. As expected, DHT levels were increased in BK compared to Nk and increased in BC compared to NC but an interesting thing was that normal koreans had 3 times higher hair DHT than normal caucasians.

    2. T levels also increased in BC and BK compared to controls but hair T levels in normal koreans were 3-4 times higher than normal Cauca. Hair T levels for NK were 2 times higher than BC.

    3. Paradox - 5-beta-DHP(dihydroprogestrone) - Balding koreans had nearly 9 times 5-beta-DHP in their hair compared to normal koreans(187 vs 20) while 5-beta-DHP was decreased in balding caucasians compared to normal caucasians (39.34 vs 54.29)
     
  2. LukeL

    LukeL Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    117
    Gender:
    Male
    That paradox is super confusing - looking forward to everyone's thoughts. Watched.
     
  3. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah but as expected high hair DHT is there in both the groups .
     
  4. LeeLemonoil

    LeeLemonoil Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    114
    Gender:
    Male
    Obviously some differences in Pregnenolone's metabolism. Preg is higher in Cs while metabolites 5ß-DHP and Pregnanolone are higher in Ks.

    Probably a different genetic (mutagenic) enzyme expression, which is not unthinkable between Csaucasians and Asians.
    It might also be a different stress-response and steroid-regulating matrix, that Ks have upregulated Prog-metabolites while Cs have higher DHEA.

    Why does high 5ß-DHP seem causative or important to hairloss in Ks while it is even lower in balding Cs?
    No clear idea, probably in Ks the 5ß-reductase pathway is detrimental when Prog is the main regulator of stress and estrogen-antagonist while in Cs I have seen some studies indicating that 5ß-mediated metabolites of Prog are actually a good thing. But this is highly unclear and speculative.

    A pity that they did not measure blood levels of the same steroids in the probands. It would have been interesting to see if DHT and T blood-levels are also higher in the balding individuals or if the contrary is true or no siginficant differences. That would have allowed some more conclusions abut the enzymatic situation in general or if there is a specific situation present in the scalp.
     
  5. LeeLemonoil

    LeeLemonoil Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    114
    Gender:
    Male
    Of course there are androgen differences in the various layers of the scalp, that's already been examined thoroughly, what I meant is if blood DHT is also higer in high-scalp DHT balding individuals ... well, we can't know anyway. A good takeaway message is tha higher levels of DHEA are yet again implicated in anoz´ther pathological situation. I think it has to do with 3ß-HSD activity. Look at Adione levels in the Caucasian groups. Even though DHEA is clearly higher in balding men, Adione are practically the same, indicating impaired function of 3ß-HSD in the balding group - with subsequent changes of androgen levels/enzymatic activity as well.
     
  6. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    5,836
    Why?
     
  7. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think blood DHT/T levels have any correlations. I have seen studies in indian,asians, white people with decent case vs control sizes . Some studies have shown slight adrenal hyperactivity in MPB though it was not reproducible later on(Adrenal hyperactivity induced MPB is a special subset i guess) . Some studies have also shown low SHBG in balding people(liver health may be here).
    Even the study above said '"As biological fluids demonstrate no correlation between androgen levels and MPB " (that's why they went for hair steroids levels.
    As far the current mainstream reason for MPB is - no matter how much DHT/androgens you are producing , if your follicles are genetically suspectible(their words), you carry the risk for MPB.
    btw you know much more about endo than me , so feel free to put more inputs. I will find more papers that check hair steroids levels. From what i know ,serum levels are meaningless in case of MPB
    @LeeLemonoil , i have seen studies where DHEA-S level were locally higher in the skins of acne patients as well. I think the general consensus here is that it's protective however i doubt that, any thoughts (pathological vs protective)?
     
  8. Drareg

    Drareg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    1,410
    Gender:
    Male
    It's a paradox alright,I still can't understand why the body looses head hair before facial in men?
    The theory thrown around is that it looses hair because of the energy requirements elsewhere are more important yet the hair warms the head adding slight protection via heat to the brain,it makes more sense to loose body hair,pubic and facial etc
    On top of that if it's a hair follicle issue regardless of what hormone why the hair follicles on the head only?

    Is nature signalling to larger environment when it does this, is it stay away low energy,low hormone,bad offspring potential? Obviously head hair over facial or pubic is far more potent a signal for the above.

    I thought the brain was everything,you pass out when the brain isn't getting blood so gravity makes it easier to get more blood there.
     
  9. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2014
    Messages:
    461
    It's commonly thought that Asian people have less androgen "receptor" compared to whites, which is consistent with this study (more DHT for the same effect).
     
  10. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    I am not sure if it's proven actually(it's a hypothesis based on low body hair in asians in general). I saw a study that hypothesized that japanese men though having same T levels have lower DHT levels compared to Caucasians hence , lesser rates of prostate cancer though that was not replicated later.
     
  11. tca300

    tca300 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    593
    Gender:
    Male
    I find it hard to believe that Koreans have higher testosterone and DHT than Caucasians. Smaller bone structure, much less body hair, and typically less much less muscle mass. Something smells fishy.
     
  12. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    bro, we are talking about hair steroid level not serum levels. Skin and prostate are potent synthesizers of hormones direct from upstream precursors.
     
  13. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2014
    Messages:
    461
    Even serum-wise, Asians and blacks have higher T and DHT levels than whites.

    Facial hair differences are likely genetic.
     
  14. tca300

    tca300 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    593
    Gender:
    Male
    @Ivysaur Source? Why do transgender men start to grow beards when testosterone is taken? Facial hair as far as I have understood it is heavily depedent on androgens.
    5-alpha-reductase activity and risk of prostate cancer among Japanese and US white and black males. - PubMed - NCBI
    Whites, blacks, and Japanese androgens were measured. Japanese males had intermediate levels of testosterone compaired to black and white males, and less DHT ( 5 alpha reductase ) than black and white males. Just like I had mentioned above.
     
  15. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    From the article you posted, i only saw this (only the abstract was available)- "we have now compared serum testosterone concentrations in young adult Japanese men with those of young adult whites and blacks, but found no significant differences"
    Have you got the full paper ?
     
  16. tca300

    tca300 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    593
    Gender:
    Male
    @Dante No significant differences in testosterone, but the source who has access to the full paper mentioned that the testosterone was on the lower end when compared to whites and blacks. But there was significant differences in DHT, because 5 alpha reductase was significantly lower in the Japanese.
     
  17. LeeLemonoil

    LeeLemonoil Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    114
    Gender:
    Male
    @tca300
    The article was reviewed and published by Nature, I don't think it is "fishy".
    Asians, as lvysaur posted
    have less andor-receptor expression when compaired to caucasians - more T and DHT circulating, less active in cells.

    Apart from that, it is futile too extrapolate too much from steroid levels to the amount of facial or scalp-hair, the mechanisms involved are way more complicated
     
  18. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    Messages:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    In regards to hair steroid levels: does this mean the hair follicle itself produces hormones or are these just hormones being used by the hair?
     
  19. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    318
    Gender:
    Male
    I might be completely wrong here but i think it's the skin around the hair produces hormones (along with the stuff that the incoming capillaries bring) and the hair follicles are the target tissues for it.
     
  20. LeeLemonoil

    LeeLemonoil Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    114
    Gender:
    Male
    correct.

    I think that Hairloss could be mitigated by increasing the activity of 3ß-HSD in those tissues. DHT must breakdown into 3ß-diol is my very simple theory. I don't "suffer" MPB so I never looked into that field but I've seen an interesting thread in some forums about some believe that increasing DHT breakdown into 3alpha-diol is the way to go. Don't think so, it's beta becuase it does only marginally convert back into DHT and it occupies both ERs so it's protective against Estrogens on the hair follicle.
    Look at this intriguing article on 3ß-diol and prostate cancer:
    The Anticancer Testosterone Metabolite 3β-Adiol - Meridian Valley Lab

    don't know how valid the info is but the author provides references. What is really interesting frm a Peat-Point of view ist that the supplements and pathways he identified for increasing 3ß-HSD are very very "peatish" as far as I can tell. I'm not a Peater per se and only here for the cool info around, but this looks good.
    I wonder if it is not partially by this mechanism that DHT is such a favourable substance, taht it breaks down into an estrogenic substance that exerts all kind of protective effects and so keeping the "real" estrogens at bay.
    Someone willing to ask R.P. himself about this substance? @Dante
     
Loading...