Gut Bacteria May Cause ALL Autoimmune Conditions; Antibiotics Can Cure

griesburner

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2017
Messages
142
i have a diagnosed autoimmume condition rheumatoid arthritis and i could not remember the last time i needed some antibiotics. i guess its over 5-8 years or longer ago. I dont get sick in terms of common cold or something very often despite the fact that i am on an immune supressant anti tnf alpha drug. But i would prefer also to use an antibiotic for longer period of time and then be gone with it. But i dont think its so easy. And i dont know any doctor in germany who would give me a prescription for an antibiotic for my autoimmune symptoms. So i guess i need to play around with some over the counter variants to clean my gut. But i have tried already a lot.
 

Peater Piper

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
817
The weird thing is, people with auto immune conditions take antibiotics quite a bit. A lot of the ones I know with type 1 get sick a lot and are constantly taking Z packs or Penicillin or Keflex. Is it just the fact that these people never take them for long enough? I know people with Lupus take them too, especially if they think they may have Lime...
I think intestinal permeability may be behind a lot of autoimmune disease. There's a pretty strong correlation between type 1 diabetes and celiac disease, and having one autoimmune disease is known to increase the odds of developing another. The body's going to react to foreign bodies slipping into the blood stream, be it with inflammation, or something worse (death of pancreatic cells?). Antibiotics can also increase intestinal permeability. The tricky thing is that bacterial and fungal infections can do the same. Then add in that damage to the intestines will also hamper nutrient absorption, and you have a pretty good environment for chronic illness.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
The weird thing is, people with auto immune conditions take antibiotics quite a bit. A lot of the ones I know with type 1 get sick a lot and are constantly taking Z packs or Penicillin or Keflex. Is it just the fact that these people never take them for long enough? I know people with Lupus take them too, especially if they think they may have Lime...

It could be an issue with taking for too short a period or not addressing the lymphatic bacteria. The study did say that to "cure" Lupus they had to give ampicillin or the other antibiotics for 20+ weeks. The shorter courses probably kill the bacteria in the liver and somewhat in the colon, which provides temporary relief. But without addressing the lymphatic bugs, the recolonization happens as soon as the antibiotics are stopped. So, aside form taking antibiotics for half a year I guess taking a highly lipophillic one orally dissolved in fat, or any of them topically (which should address the lymphatic issue) would be the way to go.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
I think intestinal permeability may be behind a lot of autoimmune disease. There's a pretty strong correlation between type 1 diabetes and celiac disease, and having one autoimmune disease is known to increase the odds of developing another. The body's going to react to foreign bodies slipping into the blood stream, be it with inflammation, or something worse (death of pancreatic cells?). Antibiotics can also increase intestinal permeability. The tricky thing is that bacterial and fungal infections can do the same. Then add in that damage to the intestines will also hamper nutrient absorption, and you have a pretty good environment for chronic illness.

There is a current push (officially) in the US to lump Lupus, RA, Sjongren, psoriasis and possibly UC into a single disease category so that all drugs approved for one can be used for the rest of the conditions. A famous rheumatologist working in the DC that I spoke to this past summer said that they are really all one disease and the only reason this "unification" has not happened earlier was infighting between pharma companies to keep revenue going as long as possible from the various disease-specific drugs.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
Would antifungals be helpful too?

Yes, they would. Another study I posted on the forum showed that liver damage in alcoholics is also due to to Candida overgrowth and spread, again due to compromised gut barrier. Often, long courses with antibiotics are given together with an anti-fungal to address the fungus overgrowth that often occurs when the gut flora is wiped out.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,753
It could be an issue with taking for too short a period or not addressing the lymphatic bacteria. The study did say that to "cure" Lupus they had to give ampicillin or the other antibiotics for 20+ weeks. The shorter courses probably kill the bacteria in the liver and somewhat in the colon, which provides temporary relief. But without addressing the lymphatic bugs, the recolonization happens as soon as the antibiotics are stopped. So, aside form taking antibiotics for half a year I guess taking a highly lipophillic one orally dissolved in fat, or any of them topically (which should address the lymphatic issue) would be the way to go.
Hmm...I wonder if anyone has actually tested that out...20 weeks on peny seems a bit....well lets just say you are going deep there.
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@haidut
I think it may be possible that the antibiotics can trigger autoimmunity as well by wiping out normal flora that would inhibit colonization by pathogens.
With this in mind an antibiotic that doesnt saturate the intestinal tissues would be ideal to avoid it from wiping out the bacteria in the colon that are adherent to the colon wall. Perhaps wiping out the bacteria in the other organs or within the lumen of the intestine would be ideal, but not the bacteria adhered to the colon wall itself.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
I'm curious to know if less pharma-sourced antibiotics would do equally well, or be superior in dealing with bacteria that are the source of endotoxins that we want to get rid of? These are things like colloidal silver, copper acetate, and vitamin C.

@haidut have you been considering the use of liposomes as an energy neutral way of delivering nutrients and antibiotics, which can be used orally, topically, as well as nasally?
 

Wagner83

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
3,295
A lot of people report damaged digestion from antibiotics use, that's why probiotics and fermented foods like kimchi are trendy.
 

EIRE24

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
1,792
I'm curious to know if less pharma-sourced antibiotics would do equally well, or be superior in dealing with bacteria that are the source of endotoxins that we want to get rid of? These are things like colloidal silver, copper acetate, and vitamin C.

@haidut have you been considering the use of liposomes as an energy neutral way of delivering nutrients and antibiotics, which can be used orally, topically, as well as nasally?
I just created a thread on colloidal silver. Hoping someone can chime in and give me good advice. Would be awesome if it helped kill unfavourable bacteria.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
@haidut
I think it may be possible that the antibiotics can trigger autoimmunity as well by wiping out normal flora that would inhibit colonization by pathogens.
With this in mind an antibiotic that doesnt saturate the intestinal tissues would be ideal to avoid it from wiping out the bacteria in the colon that are adherent to the colon wall. Perhaps wiping out the bacteria in the other organs or within the lumen of the intestine would be ideal, but not the bacteria adhered to the colon wall itself.

The studies we have seen so far show that basically all bacteria is suspect, even the widely used "beneficial" Bifidobacterium species. Take a look at the other study I posted yesterday.
Pancreatic Cancer Driven By Bacteria/endotoxin; Antibiotics Can Prevent/treat

Both studies (this thread and above link) used complete gut sterilization to achieve benefit. I don't think this is feasible for most people but Peat's approach of taking lower dose antibiotics 2-3 times weekly to keep the bacteria in check is probably a reasonable approach unless one has a very serious issue already and complete obliteration is needed. After completing the antibiotic course maybe using the Phage product Peat recommended would help prevent colonization with pathogenic species.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
I'm curious to know if less pharma-sourced antibiotics would do equally well, or be superior in dealing with bacteria that are the source of endotoxins that we want to get rid of? These are things like colloidal silver, copper acetate, and vitamin C.

@haidut have you been considering the use of liposomes as an energy neutral way of delivering nutrients and antibiotics, which can be used orally, topically, as well as nasally?

I was thinking the same thing last night, and I suspect a combination of monolaurine (or pure lauric acid) in combination with copper acetate could do the trick. No need for liposomal formulations. A combination of vitamin E and phosphatidylcholine, both of which target the lymphs and tend to avoid the liver, should work well enough. So, dissolving some antibitoic in MitoLipin and/or Diamant (adamantane is also a lipophillic enhancer: The Lipophilic Bullet Hits the Targets: Medicinal Chemistry of Adamantane Derivatives) should work, especially for monolaurin which dissolves rather well in tocopherol.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
A lot of people report damaged digestion from antibiotics use, that's why probiotics and fermented foods like kimchi are trendy.

It is certainly possible, so that's why I suggested in a previous response to follow the antibiotic therapy with the phage product Peat recommended or not take high doses that kill everything. Peat said a smaller dose antibiotics taken 2-3 times weekly is enough for bacterial control.
 

Peatful

Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
3,582
The studies we have seen so far show that basically all bacteria is suspect, even the widely used "beneficial" Bifidobacterium species. Take a look at the other study I posted yesterday.
Pancreatic Cancer Driven By Bacteria/endotoxin; Antibiotics Can Prevent/treat

Both studies (this thread and above link) used complete gut sterilization to achieve benefit. I don't think this is feasible for most people but Peat's approach of taking lower dose antibiotics 2-3 times weekly to keep the bacteria in check is probably a reasonable approach unless one has a very serious issue already and complete obliteration is needed. After completing the antibiotic course maybe using the Phage product Peat recommended would help prevent colonization with pathogenic species.
FWIW: Phages were very beneficial to me after I eliminated gut irritating foods. I used Life Extension FlorAssist GI with Phage Technology.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
FWIW: Phages were very beneficial to me after I eliminated gut irritating foods. I used Life Extension FlorAssist GI with Phage Technology.

Great, so at least one testimony on them helping heal the gut. Maybe somebody can ask Peat if they can used after an antibiotic course.
 

griesburner

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2017
Messages
142
what about resistance of bacteria to antibiotics? i was always told by doctors to take the whole pack of antibiotics even when symptoms are gone before to kill all bacteria so they cant build resistance to it. Then a small amount every now and then would be the complete opposite and the bacteria could easily build resistance to it or not?
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,795
Location
USA / Europe
what about resistance of bacteria to antibiotics? i was always told by doctors to take the whole pack of antibiotics even when symptoms are gone before to kill all bacteria so they cant build resistance to it. Then a small amount every now and then would be the complete opposite and the bacteria could easily build resistance to it or not?

It's a good question to ask Peat IMO.
 
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom