Guai-Fenes-In

michael94

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And so what does it mean?

Guai mean Woe...
In other words, A curse or baneful wish

fenes comes from fenestral which means "window", but related to the body it means opening: an orifice. Windows for the Demiurge to abuse and desecrate. A window for the Devil to enter your Soul. fenes-IN...

mephenesin is the predecessor to guaifenesin and they have very similar effects.


Brain glycine and aggressive behavior. - PubMed - NCBI

Specificity and potency of N-methyl-D-aspartate glycine site antagonists and of mephenesin on the rat spinal cord in vitro. - PubMed - NCBI

One can read more in the following links. Not everything in them is correct... but I am confident the reader can separate Wheat from Kaff...

The Role of Guaifenesin in Fibromyalgia.

The Guaifenesin Protocol for Fibromyalgia

Attacking Biofilms That Cause Chronic Infections
 

griesburner

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Are there any more good information about guaifenesin out there? It could work for fibromyalgia, that is common sense, but i thought to experiment with it with my autoimmune rheumatoid artrithis as both illnesses are similar to some extend (for example low ATP).

Now the theory of how it works is to lower phosphate levels in the body. And by accident on my start page here was this random quote from Ray which made me think about it:

"While increased phosphate slows mitochondrial energy production, decreasing its intracellular concentration increases the respiratory rate and the efficiency of ATP formation. A "deficiency" of polyunsaturated fatty acids has this effect (Nogueira, et al., 2001), but so does the consumption of fructose (Green, et al., 1993; Lu, et al., 1994). "

So maybe not only fructose, but guaifenesin could increase ATP production via decreasing phosphate? What i am not sure about now is, if guaifenesin affects intracellular phosphate or only some other forms?
 
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michael94

michael94

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Are there any more good information about guaifenesin out there? It could work for fibromyalgia, that is common sense, but i thought to experiment with it with my autoimmune rheumatoid artrithis as both illnesses are similar to some extend (for example low ATP).

Now the theory of how it works is to lower phosphate levels in the body. And by accident on my start page here was this random quote from Ray which made me think about it:

"While increased phosphate slows mitochondrial energy production, decreasing its intracellular concentration increases the respiratory rate and the efficiency of ATP formation. A "deficiency" of polyunsaturated fatty acids has this effect (Nogueira, et al., 2001), but so does the consumption of fructose (Green, et al., 1993; Lu, et al., 1994). "

So maybe not only fructose, but guaifenesin could increase ATP production via decreasing phosphate? What i am not sure about now is, if guaifenesin affects intracellular phosphate or only some other forms?

I live in LA and have met with Dr. St. Amand ( he popularized guaifenesin for fibro and excess phosphate ). He's very spry and energetic for his age... 90 something if I remember. He still teaches classes at UCLA in addition to his medical practice. I would not compare him to Ray Peat, but he is very intelligent and has a incredibly soothing aura to be around. He also likes to paint and has some of his artwork in the office. He said he takes 1800mg of guaifenesin every day. Something interesting is that as part of the treatment he recommends with guaifenesin, he says to avoid aspirin and mint products, also teas and certain other plant extracts. You can read about the entire list Quick Check For Salicylates. Now his reasoning is that they block guaifenesin from working which in my experience appears to be part true and part misunderstanding, to clarify that I would have to get more into how I think the guai is working but I want to be more certain first. At times I felt aspirin maked guaifenesin work better and others times it seemed to do just what he said. So for anyone who has very bad reactions to aspirin, it might be worth trying guaifenesin. The rules for how drugs work can vary a lot on how much is being digested and where it is being absorbed, which is why it can be hard to get a pithy answer on the subject. But I have much more than a vague idea based on lots of experimentation. One needs to be very careful with guai because it can be quite harsh on the kidneys if used the wrong way.
 

griesburner

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Sounds interesting. But why does he take such a high dose (1800mg per day)? I thought guaifenesin is only needed for a period of time till the phosphates are excreted? Or does it has other protective effects? And what would be using guai the wrong way? Too high of a dose too early with not enough fluids to flush the excess phosphates out of the body?
 
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michael94

michael94

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It is more than just phosphates, actually I'm convinced the phosphate accumulation is an artifact of a more fundamental problem. For example the type of guai they recommend in addition to regular release is the slow release form which just means its coated in cellulose so it is absorbed further in the digestive tract. I think it can be protective for the intestines or perhaps it works on biofilms. It is an expectorant/anti-mucus after all. Interestingly another recommendation for fibro is low carb which depletes mucus ( mucin production is dependent on carbohydrates ). Of course we know very well about the drawbacks to such measures...

In the fast release form it seems to decongest the liver if you release enough bile to digest it. If not it will hit your kidneys like a freight train. Much like when people cant tolerate coffee and get lower back pain from it. Thats because liver refuses or lacks the energy to deal with the coffee and kidneys are left with the bill.
 

Pointless

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I tried guaifenesin before but got some side effects, so I stopped. I'm gonna try it again to see if they go away.

Nausea, diarrhea, allergies, spaced out feeling, dry mouth.

Hopefully it will help with allergies, congestion, dermatitis, hair loss, gut inflammation, joint pains, teeth sensitivity, mood problems, muscle cramps, pale stools, eczema.

Maybe it could help with hemorrhoids? But I don't see it indicated for that anywhere in my research. Maybe its glycine activities.
 
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michael94

michael94

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Which version did you take? Please pm me if you are considering taking it again with specifics or post in this thread. You may be able to benefit from my mistakes.
 

Pointless

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1200 mg extended release guaifenesin. Inactive ingredients: carbomer homopolymer type B; hypromellos, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose, sodium starch glycolate
 
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michael94

michael94

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It's making me warm but itchy
Warmness is good of course. If it makes you itchy that is a sign of stress on the kidneys, either directly and/or indirectly because of mild-jaundice ( see cholestatic pruritus ). 1200mg is a lot. One of the things guaifenesin does is break down mucus so if for example one has a lot of gut issues/inflammation/leaky gut it could be very harsh on an already weak intestines by depleting the mucin in a particular area, especially if it is the form of a large tablet moving slowly. Dissolving in warm water and taking that way may alleviate some of those problems but it also blocks some of the benefits which include being released further in the intestines.

Care and patience is important... You must also synchronize your daily activities with what you want from a particular medicine. Do not expect to clean your body if you are in a dirty environment that needs cleaning. And what comes out of your mouth is just as important as what goes in! Its better to eat less than ideal foods while performing ones duties than try to eat "perfectly" and lying to oneself about what needs to be done.
 

Pointless

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@michael94 I'm still taking guaifenesin. I do 600 mg 2x/day, sustained release. Some of the more acute symptoms have subsided, but I'm still getting eczema, congestion from it. Water helps but not completely.

I'm wondering if glycine can enhance guaifenesins effect or prevent side effects. Do you have any experience with that?
 
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michael94

michael94

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@michael94 I'm still taking guaifenesin. I do 600 mg 2x/day, sustained release. Some of the more acute symptoms have subsided, but I'm still getting eczema, congestion from it. Water helps but not completely.

I'm wondering if glycine can enhance guaifenesins effect or prevent side effects. Do you have any experience with that?
Iron supplement helped me. But I went so long barely digesting food that I was a special case and cant recommend it per se, something to think about is all. I didnt get blood tests or anything, I just noticed that after a long time of being sick that iron enriched bread seemed to have a unique effect that other things didnt. This might apply to others who have dealt with poor digestion for most of their life like I have, but its hard for me to recommend iron over the internet. One needs to be very careful with it.

Does the guaifenesin make you feel worse, better or the same after taking it? I dont know about glycine helping, but I do know a lot of things that dont involve ingesting glycine can raise glycine levels in the body.
 

Pointless

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Iron supplement helped me. But I went so long barely digesting food that I was a special case and cant recommend it per se, something to think about is all. I didnt get blood tests or anything, I just noticed that after a long time of being sick that iron enriched bread seemed to have a unique effect that other things didnt. This might apply to others who have dealt with poor digestion for most of their life like I have, but its hard for me to recommend iron over the internet. One needs to be very careful with it.

Does the guaifenesin make you feel worse, better or the same after taking it? I dont know about glycine helping, but I do know a lot of things that dont involve ingesting glycine can raise glycine levels in the body.

It makes me feel worse. I thought that if it raises brain glycine, it might deplete it elsewhere in case of a deficiency. Tbh I don't really believe in detox, so I look for nutritional support for any side effects I get from a therapy.
 
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michael94

michael94

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It makes me feel worse. I thought that if it raises brain glycine, it might deplete it elsewhere in case of a deficiency. Tbh I don't really believe in detox, so I look for nutritional support for any side effects I get from a therapy.
I agree, people use "detox" to justify fixing one thing and imbalancing another or just harming oneself altogether. In this case your kidneys would be under a lot of stress and this can be extremely unpleasant because kidney function is very important for protecting against negative thoughts/emotions/anxiety... nevermind the physical symptoms. The Dr. that popularized guaifenesin said to just push through the horrible symptoms and eventually one will get better after many months or years. I think there is some truth to this based on how much experience he has but it is definitely not the best way...

That said, its easy to make some basic improvements. Keeping endotoxin and stress as low as possible while still being productive ( whatever that might mean for you) is the best policy, especially with respect to what I mentioned above about synchronizing one's life. Theres little point searching for the next piece in the puzzle if one hasn't prepared to receive it.
 
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Wolf

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Guaifenesin and increased sperm motility: a preliminary case report
"A 32-year-old male presented for an infertility evaluation. He reported an inability to conceive with his wife after 18 months of unprotected intercourse. A semen analysis was performed that included spermatozoa count, liquefaction, morphology, motility, viscosity and volume. Initial results of the semen analysis demonstrated low sperm count and motility. The provider offered treatment with guaifenesin 600 mg extended release tablets twice daily. Two months after guaifenesin therapy the semen analysis was repeated that demonstrated marked improvement in both total sperm count and motility."

Table 1
Semen analysis laboratory results

Lab result January 6, 2009 March 3, 2009
Motility 10% 61%
Sperm count
(million/mL) 2.4 34.7
Viscosity Normal Normal
Volume (mL) 4.0 4.0
Days of abstinence 4 3

==
Interesting article. The Guaifenesin Protocol

====
Counterargument: guaif2
" It has been hypothesized that the efficacy of guaifenesin is dependent upon its effects on the renal excretion of phosphate – an increased excretion of phosphate leads to less entering muscle cells which, in turn, is thought to depress the production of ATP. The surrogate marker that has been used to screen for drugs with this property is urate excretion – it has been claimed that uricosuric drugs in general will be of benefit in the treatment of fibromyalgia. The study reported here did not show that guaifenesin was a uricosuric agent and it did not increase the excretion of phosphate."
 
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Zpol

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So the claim is that the guaifenesin protocol excretes built up phosphates and thereby reduces or eliminates Fibromyalgia pain (the theory being that the elevated phosphates are the root cause of the pain). Wouldn't therapeutic usage of Niacinamide be just as effective since it too has the ability to lower phosphate levels? ...and possibly with less side effects than the guai?

@michael94 or @Pointless; have you ever used Niacinamide and/or Niacin therapeutically? If so, do feel the benefits of the guai were better in some way?

@raypeatclips posted this a while back...
Niacinamide Lowers Blood Phosphate Levels

I've personally been taking about 100mg of Niacinamide everyday (in a single dose) and still getting pain flare ups, maybe more is needed and more frequent doses are needed. Currently having a flare right now. I just took a single dose of Guaifenesin to see what happens, not expecting a miracle or anything but curious.
 
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michael94

michael94

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hmmm
I always liked niacin for the flush, which is usually what people tend to dislike about niacin... Not all the time though.
 
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michael94

michael94

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@Pointless Hi, how have you been? This website is targeted at pregnant moms where cholestasis can be very severe and life threating... but it also applies to almost everyone with chronic health issues. ICP is quite common among mothers who have the great misfortune of a stillborn baby... It was noticed that a lot of mothers with stillborn births were itchy leading up to birth or even during much of the pregnancy. Thats how this website started, actually the url used to be itchymoms.com and that link redirects to the current website.

Medical Articles & Reference - ICP Care

Take a look at the main symptoms:

itchiness
pale stools
fatigue
etc.

There's much more to it than taking udca although that appears to be an option for some. A few people on this forum have mentioned similar symptoms but anyone that is feeling unwell in general is suffering from cholestasis to one degree or another.
 
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Zpol

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I always liked niacin for the flush, which is usually what people tend to dislike about niacin... Not all the time though.

I think I would like the flush too; supposedly it's a nice warm/hot sensation. Haven't tried it yet though, I've only done the niacinamide. I am considering getting the niacin however since I've read it can help with capillary fragility and circulation, which are associated with Fibro pain (and Raynaud's which I also have).
Regarding the flushing; I've read that it's due to a liberation of histamine caused by the niacin. And that it takes about 8 hours for all available histamine to be released, at which point you can more niacin without getting the flushing since all of the histamine has already been released theoretically cleared. If you skip doses then more histamine builds up, and you will get the flushing again at the next dose. I haven't put this to the test but I'll probably give it a go at some point.
 

LUH 3417

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I think I would like the flush too; supposedly it's a nice warm/hot sensation. Haven't tried it yet though, I've only done the niacinamide. I am considering getting the niacin however since I've read it can help with capillary fragility and circulation, which are associated with Fibro pain (and Raynaud's which I also have).
Regarding the flushing; I've read that it's due to a liberation of histamine caused by the niacin. And that it takes about 8 hours for all available histamine to be released, at which point you can more niacin without getting the flushing since all of the histamine has already been released theoretically cleared. If you skip doses then more histamine builds up, and you will get the flushing again at the next dose. I haven't put this to the test but I'll probably give it a go at some point.
Have you followed thru with this?
 
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