Gravity As A Stressor, And Its Relationship To Sleep And Consciousness

nigma

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We humans stand vertically against the force of gravity. When sleep is needed we lay down horizontally, that is... we change our orientation to reduce the effect of gravity, therefore gravity is a stressor that we seem to need regular breaks from. When we sleep we loose our consciousness, which is highly dangerous in a competitive world like our own, any prey animal could take advantage of us during sleep. We sleep for 1/3 of our lives, which is a very, very significant amount of time and cannot be understated. Therefore sleep must be very important as we are apparently willing to put ourselves in danger 1/3 of our lives.

I'm coming at this from an electric universe paradigm, please go to thunderbolts.info if you are not familiar with it. But basically it is an alternative model of the universe where electricity is given a dominant role at all scales, it is informed from the mythology of all peoples around the world, which mention great electrical disturbances in the sky and ground that happened in the past. As such, it views the past as being highly catastrophic and therefore opposite to the prevailing view of uniformitarianism, where the earth and to solar system are thought to have been relatively uneventful for 1000s and 100,000s of years. Therefore uniformitarianism takes how the world appears and behaves now, as applicable to the past, but this is an assumption. There is enough evidence to suggest that the past was very different and that modern times are far less pleasant than during a 'golden age' which is a highly universal myth.

With the above in mind it is possible to think of sleep as an abnormality. I remember hearing that there is, so far, no known physiological attribute that correlates with the amount of sleep needed, i.e. when comparing organisms, the amount of sleep taken doesn't seem to be associated with body size, brain size, activity level, etc. so it seems to be a mystery. Also within humans there are large variations, apparently around 0.5% of people need only half as much sleep as others. There is also a tribe where the people don't sleep but just have a few 20min naps lying against trees throughout the day/night. Based on the above and other things I cannot recall at present, I think its possible sleep is a modern phenomenon that did not exist in the past, at least not in its current form.

Gravity also seems to have increased overtime. Mankind has used smaller and smaller bricks/blocks for building structures overtime. Dinosaurs do not seem to have be able to stand in present day gravity, calculations show their bone mass could not support their own weight. There are also the megafauna and flora that apparently all died out only very recently (going by mainstream dating), without proper explanation.

It is highly speculative but very interesting to picture the effects on physiology of our modern environment if it is actually very different to the past. Our body template would be currently unsuited to the modern increased force of gravity, this would constantly be activating the stress systems in the body, which systems would be activated to respond to the stress? One is the management of pressure in the body, partly controlled by the kidneys by altering the amount of electrolytes and water in the blood and body. I know from personal experience the effect of drinking water with electrolytes on my self perceived level of consciousness. I can at times feel like my awareness of reality is dipping in and out of actual consciousness, then have a 600 mL electrolyte drink and suddenly feel like I have just woken up. This effect is obviously most pronounced at the time of day I usually have a 'lul' which is around 6pm when I arrive home from work and can relax. But note this is after being vertical for about 12 hours. For those 12 hours my body has had to resist the force of gravity pushing everything down and this includes all the dissolved substances in my blood and cells. As the brain is at the top of the body, it is more sensitive to lowered blood pressure than other parts of the body. As well as the kidneys controlling blood pressure, in a body hypovolume situation (from dehydration or blood loss), the brain can send messages to the blood vessels to contract to allow more pressure to the brain to keep consciousness going, this requires energy of course and so is connected to the bodys stress and adaptive systems Ray spends much time talking about. How much stress/adaptive energy is used by the body just trying to maintain consciousness over the course of a day? I'm not sure what proportion it is, but I think it is related to the amount of time we need for sleep, as we spend the day vertical and then rest for 1/3 of the 24hr day horizontal to repair and undo the effects of being vertical. In an even more stressful environment where you have the added stress of cold, animals hibernate laying down and spend even more time avoiding the energy cost of being vertical. I wonder if this is why electrolyte regulators and or osmolytes like taurine, TMG, etc. have such beneficial effects?

I also wonder if the drugs that are now available to reduce the amount of time needed for sleep work by affecting the regulation of electrolytes and thus reduce the stress of gravity which our body design may not be optimally designed for...?
 

Blossom

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This is super interesting. Have you read the Inclined Bed Therapy thread? The idea is harnessing gravity to aid circulation while sleeping. There have been a few people who couldn’t sleep well that way though.
 

Cirion

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So, time to send an email to Elon Musk saying we want to be the first batch of volunteers for the first moonbase? Less gravity, after all... Lol!

(My reply sounds like a troll post, and it somewhat is, but also isn't at the same time)

Some gravity is definitely needed, as astronauts quickly found that they had dramatic muscular atrophy in space (zero g) but maybe "some g" (like the moon) is enough gravity?

This reminds me of the TV show Orville which I just finished. There was a race of people that came from a planet with INSANELY high gravity, and as a result, all of the people there had super human strength because their muscles had adapted to the gravity, so when they temporarily visited other planets they could perform feats of superhuman proportions. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't stressed in the process of getting that strong. Of course, that's fiction, as no person could ever survive under that level of gravity (humans visiting the planet had to be super careful as they would be squashed like a bug from the gravity, probably as higher as Jupiter's gravity or even more).

Similarly, that'd be the drawback of living on a low gravity environment. Maybe it'd make us healthier in some ways, but if we lived on the moon for too long, we might not be able to go back to the earth and survive under its high gravity again? Kinda like that TV show.

Interesting thread, hadn't necessarily thought of gravity as a direct stressor but I think you're right.
 
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tankasnowgod

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We humans stand vertically against the force of gravity. When sleep is needed we lay down horizontally, that is... we change our orientation to reduce the effect of gravity, therefore gravity is a stressor that we seem to need regular breaks from.

This seems to be the main idea of your post, but there are several flaws with it. First, not all humans sleep horizontally. I sleep at an angle, as do many others (as Blossom mentioned, there is a thread all about this). It isn't a completely modern idea, as there are several beds throughout history that have an angle to them as well (ancient Egyptian beds, for example). Also, humans will sleep sitting down, or in recliners, even standing or sleepwalking. There is also the fact that many animals will choose to sleep on an incline if there is one available to them. Beyond this, animals sleep in non horizontal ways- Flamingos sleep standing on one leg, bats sleep hanging upside down.

Also, trees and other plants do not "lay down" at any point in their lives, and can grow to very tall heights (400 feet or more), can weigh several tons, and live for hundreds of years.

Also, laying horizontally doesn't "reduce" the effect of gravity. It's still working on all parts of your body with the same force. It certainly can change it's effects. A glass can hold water when it's upright, but it will spill all out if moved horizontally.

Lastly, there are many bodily functions that rely exclusively or heavily on gravity. Gravity is very helpful when eating, and for all GI functions.
 

Terma

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Maybe nitric oxide (eNOS) is involved in this since it's a *gas* that increases blood flow and nutrient availability to tissues. (I know I know you will say CO2...)

There is enough evidence to suggest that the past was very different and that modern times are far less pleasant than during a 'golden age' which is a highly universal myth.

Everything I've learned I've come onto through the process of extreme and chronic suffering. Suffering and extremes drive evolution. That's why natural evolution ******* sucks balls and we have to do something better.

Otherwise I enjoy your idea.
 

lampofred

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Gravity might be a good kind of stress in that even though it increases cortisol, it reduces prolactin. Like coffee. Lying horizontally lowers blood sugar and raises prolactin, so it's stressful in the sense that it lowers energy production, like hibernation.
 

redsun

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We humans stand vertically against the force of gravity. When sleep is needed we lay down horizontally, that is... we change our orientation to reduce the effect of gravity, therefore gravity is a stressor that we seem to need regular breaks from. When we sleep we loose our consciousness, which is highly dangerous in a competitive world like our own, any prey animal could take advantage of us during sleep. We sleep for 1/3 of our lives, which is a very, very significant amount of time and cannot be understated. Therefore sleep must be very important as we are apparently willing to put ourselves in danger 1/3 of our lives.

I'm coming at this from an electric universe paradigm, please go to thunderbolts.info if you are not familiar with it. But basically it is an alternative model of the universe where electricity is given a dominant role at all scales, it is informed from the mythology of all peoples around the world, which mention great electrical disturbances in the sky and ground that happened in the past. As such, it views the past as being highly catastrophic and therefore opposite to the prevailing view of uniformitarianism, where the earth and to solar system are thought to have been relatively uneventful for 1000s and 100,000s of years. Therefore uniformitarianism takes how the world appears and behaves now, as applicable to the past, but this is an assumption. There is enough evidence to suggest that the past was very different and that modern times are far less pleasant than during a 'golden age' which is a highly universal myth.

With the above in mind it is possible to think of sleep as an abnormality. I remember hearing that there is, so far, no known physiological attribute that correlates with the amount of sleep needed, i.e. when comparing organisms, the amount of sleep taken doesn't seem to be associated with body size, brain size, activity level, etc. so it seems to be a mystery. Also within humans there are large variations, apparently around 0.5% of people need only half as much sleep as others. There is also a tribe where the people don't sleep but just have a few 20min naps lying against trees throughout the day/night. Based on the above and other things I cannot recall at present, I think its possible sleep is a modern phenomenon that did not exist in the past, at least not in its current form.

Gravity also seems to have increased overtime. Mankind has used smaller and smaller bricks/blocks for building structures overtime. Dinosaurs do not seem to have be able to stand in present day gravity, calculations show their bone mass could not support their own weight. There are also the megafauna and flora that apparently all died out only very recently (going by mainstream dating), without proper explanation.

It is highly speculative but very interesting to picture the effects on physiology of our modern environment if it is actually very different to the past. Our body template would be currently unsuited to the modern increased force of gravity, this would constantly be activating the stress systems in the body, which systems would be activated to respond to the stress? One is the management of pressure in the body, partly controlled by the kidneys by altering the amount of electrolytes and water in the blood and body. I know from personal experience the effect of drinking water with electrolytes on my self perceived level of consciousness. I can at times feel like my awareness of reality is dipping in and out of actual consciousness, then have a 600 mL electrolyte drink and suddenly feel like I have just woken up. This effect is obviously most pronounced at the time of day I usually have a 'lul' which is around 6pm when I arrive home from work and can relax. But note this is after being vertical for about 12 hours. For those 12 hours my body has had to resist the force of gravity pushing everything down and this includes all the dissolved substances in my blood and cells. As the brain is at the top of the body, it is more sensitive to lowered blood pressure than other parts of the body. As well as the kidneys controlling blood pressure, in a body hypovolume situation (from dehydration or blood loss), the brain can send messages to the blood vessels to contract to allow more pressure to the brain to keep consciousness going, this requires energy of course and so is connected to the bodys stress and adaptive systems Ray spends much time talking about. How much stress/adaptive energy is used by the body just trying to maintain consciousness over the course of a day? I'm not sure what proportion it is, but I think it is related to the amount of time we need for sleep, as we spend the day vertical and then rest for 1/3 of the 24hr day horizontal to repair and undo the effects of being vertical. In an even more stressful environment where you have the added stress of cold, animals hibernate laying down and spend even more time avoiding the energy cost of being vertical. I wonder if this is why electrolyte regulators and or osmolytes like taurine, TMG, etc. have such beneficial effects?

I also wonder if the drugs that are now available to reduce the amount of time needed for sleep work by affecting the regulation of electrolytes and thus reduce the stress of gravity which our body design may not be optimally designed for...?

If you are talking about modafinil which is a drug used for narcolepsy, it works primarily through increasing histamine and dopamine. Higher histamine levels reduce the need for sleep somewhat. There are some things that can make you need more sleep and less sleep.

Carnivore diet in my experience and it seems to be the case in general with other carni dieters made it so even when I didnt get 8 hours I was completely fine. Also needed less sleep then I do now, I could get by with 7 hours at the age of 17 and feel completely rested. I think the high protein diet keeps catecholamines like dopamine and noradrenaline higher and also means higher histidine which keeps histamine higher which helps keep you awake. The other part was the no fiber aspect.

Seems like the more fibrous and bulky foods you eat the more sleep and rest is required. Could be that it takes more time to repair the digestive canal because of fibers and plant material. Also the increased histamine in fermented animal foods could play a part as well. I still have luck with this by minimizing fibers in the diet and sticking to easily digestible foods.

Exercise can make you sleep more as well. Sleep is necessary for muscles to recover and sleep is the time when the most androgens are made.
 
OP
nigma

nigma

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This is super interesting. Have you read the Inclined Bed Therapy thread? The idea is harnessing gravity to aid circulation while sleeping. There have been a few people who couldn’t sleep well that way though.

Yes I came across it on this forum a few years ago and did try it for a few months, I remember feeling more refreshed on waking. I don't remember why I stopped it. Have you seen benefits yourself?

Living organisms seem to make use of every available energy resource, its amazing really.
 
OP
nigma

nigma

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So, time to send an email to Elon Musk saying we want to be the first batch of volunteers for the first moonbase? Less gravity, after all... Lol!

(My reply sounds like a troll post, and it somewhat is, but also isn't at the same time)

Some gravity is definitely needed, as astronauts quickly found that they had dramatic muscular atrophy in space (zero g) but maybe "some g" (like the moon) is enough gravity?

This reminds me of the TV show Orville which I just finished. There was a race of people that came from a planet with INSANELY high gravity, and as a result, all of the people there had super human strength because their muscles had adapted to the gravity, so when they temporarily visited other planets they could perform feats of superhuman proportions. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't stressed in the process of getting that strong. Of course, that's fiction, as no person could ever survive under that level of gravity (humans visiting the planet had to be super careful as they would be squashed like a bug from the gravity, probably as higher as Jupiter's gravity or even more).

Similarly, that'd be the drawback of living on a low gravity environment. Maybe it'd make us healthier in some ways, but if we lived on the moon for too long, we might not be able to go back to the earth and survive under its high gravity again? Kinda like that TV show.

Interesting thread, hadn't necessarily thought of gravity as a direct stressor but I think you're right.

Yes, it depends on what amount of gravity we got used to in the past, it seems in modern times the environment is so harsh that nothing evolves anymore. I suspect that in the 'golden age' or leading up to it, biological evolution was more Lamarkian than it is now. Now, in the lower temperature, lower energy and higher gravity environment we have, Darwinian evolution is the norm. Surplus energy is required for change.
 
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nigma

nigma

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This seems to be the main idea of your post, but there are several flaws with it. First, not all humans sleep horizontally. I sleep at an angle, as do many others (as Blossom mentioned, there is a thread all about this). It isn't a completely modern idea, as there are several beds throughout history that have an angle to them as well (ancient Egyptian beds, for example). Also, humans will sleep sitting down, or in recliners, even standing or sleepwalking. There is also the fact that many animals will choose to sleep on an incline if there is one available to them. Beyond this, animals sleep in non horizontal ways- Flamingos sleep standing on one leg, bats sleep hanging upside down.

The point isn't to get completely horizontal, it is to have some recovery time where the body can be in a position that reduces the energy required to force blood up 1.5 to 2 m to the head. The physics of pressure is that all that matters is height, i.e., if you have a large pool with water 2 m deep, the force against the walls at the bottom is the same as if you had a very small pool with water 2 m deep. So any position that is not completely vertical helps reduce the force. Sitting for example is great as it is ~2/3 the force of standing.

Also, trees and other plants do not "lay down" at any point in their lives, and can grow to very tall heights (400 feet or more), can weigh several tons, and live for hundreds of years.

Also, laying horizontally doesn't "reduce" the effect of gravity. It's still working on all parts of your body with the same force. It certainly can change it's effects. A glass can hold water when it's upright, but it will spill all out if moved horizontally.

Lastly, there are many bodily functions that rely exclusively or heavily on gravity. Gravity is very helpful when eating, and for all GI functions.

I'm not saying zero gravity is ideal, or that in the past there was no gravity, just that it was less. I agree gravity is very helpful, but too much is not, especially without the energy to adapt.
 
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nigma

nigma

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If you are talking about modafinil which is a drug used for narcolepsy, it works primarily through increasing histamine and dopamine. Higher histamine levels reduce the need for sleep somewhat. There are some things that can make you need more sleep and less sleep.

Carnivore diet in my experience and it seems to be the case in general with other carni dieters made it so even when I didnt get 8 hours I was completely fine. Also needed less sleep then I do now, I could get by with 7 hours at the age of 17 and feel completely rested. I think the high protein diet keeps catecholamines like dopamine and noradrenaline higher and also means higher histidine which keeps histamine higher which helps keep you awake. The other part was the no fiber aspect.

Seems like the more fibrous and bulky foods you eat the more sleep and rest is required. Could be that it takes more time to repair the digestive canal because of fibers and plant material. Also the increased histamine in fermented animal foods could play a part as well. I still have luck with this by minimizing fibers in the diet and sticking to easily digestible foods.

Exercise can make you sleep more as well. Sleep is necessary for muscles to recover and sleep is the time when the most androgens are made.

Thanks, yes modafinil would be one if it is used for narcolepsy, I will be reading about it and any others. I don't know much about histamine, perhaps its the electrolyte manipulator that i'm looking for.

I definately agree with the point about more fibrous and bulky foods = more sleep. Recently I've been adding copious amounts of vinegar to my meals, I have avoided the 'food coma' feeling completely with it, which is very interesting.
 

Blossom

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Yes I came across it on this forum a few years ago and did try it for a few months, I remember feeling more refreshed on waking. I don't remember why I stopped it. Have you seen benefits yourself?

Living organisms seem to make use of every available energy resource, its amazing really.
Yes, I like it! My husband and I have been sleeping inclined for a year now. When we went out of town in January we didn’t incline the bed we slept in and we both had worse sleep and aches and pains returning. A couple weeks ago when we went on a family vacation we took risers and slept great the whole time.

My husband is a huge skeptic about most things medical and basically all things alternative/complimentary health and he loves it and his snoring has dramatically decreased. For me it seemed to primarily help a pinched nerve and night sweats. I think it’s worth a shot for anyone interested because it’s basically free and if it doesn’t work for someone there’s no harm done.
 

tankasnowgod

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The point isn't to get completely horizontal, it is to have some recovery time where the body can be in a position that reduces the energy required to force blood up 1.5 to 2 m to the head. The physics of pressure is that all that matters is height, i.e., if you have a large pool with water 2 m deep, the force against the walls at the bottom is the same as if you had a very small pool with water 2 m deep. So any position that is not completely vertical helps reduce the force. Sitting for example is great as it is ~2/3 the force of standing.

Reduce energy? You should review Andrew Fletcher's work, as he would completely disagree that lying horizontal would "reduce the energy required to force blood up to the head." In fact, his point would be that when standing vertical or lying inclined, you use gravity, molecular drag, and density changes in the blood to circulate blood, along with the heart. If you lie horizontal, you are no longer getting gravity's benefits, and instead, your heart has to work extra hard, requiring MORE energy to circulate blood.

Here was his experiment where he showed that gravity can molecular drag can LIFT water up to 24 meters, not forcing it with any sort of pump, simply using density changes and molecular drag-



I'm not saying zero gravity is ideal, or that in the past there was no gravity, just that it was less. I agree gravity is very helpful, but too much is not, especially without the energy to adapt.

This does seem different than the original claim that "gravity is a stressor," but even then, the current evidence doesn't support this claim. Astronauts that have gone into lower gravity, even for a relatively short period of time like weeks or months, come back with serious health issues. So, from the evidence that we have, the current enviorment of gravity is about right, and it might just be a slight tweak to see what would be better, a little less, or even a little more.
 

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